CR engine HPFP analysis

flyboy320

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2010
Location
GTA, Canada
TDI
2018 e-Golf
I understand all that but being a fuel pump, I do think that it will need to be replaced at some point just due to basic wear.
I think your best bet is to to what Jesse_Boyer suggested and pick up 2micron's kit (two different kits) and then IF the pump fails you just have to replace the pump, and if it doesn't fail you've saved yourself money and time.
 

cyclopropene

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 4, 2014
Location
MA
TDI
12 Golf DSG (Bought Back 12-12-18)
I think your best bet is to to what Jesse_Boyer suggested and pick up 2micron's kit (two different kits) and then IF the pump fails you just have to replace the pump, and if it doesn't fail you've saved yourself money and time.
Just out of curiosity, has anyone done that yet? That is, had a HPFP failure with the 2micron kit and replaced only the pump and then driven for a long while with no other problems? (I've been through some other older threads that indicated no, but just interested if it has happened since). The financial math on the back of my envelope doesn't work for the kit with VWOA still paying for the repairs...

Cheers,
 

Mrrogers1

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2006
Location
Omaha NEEEBRASKA
TDI
2011 Golf TDI 6MT, 2011 Jetta TDI DSG, 2015 Golf Sportwagen S TDI DSG
Just out of curiosity, has anyone done that yet? That is, had a HPFP failure with the 2micron kit and replaced only the pump and then driven for a long while with no other problems? (I've been through some other older threads that indicated no, but just interested if it has happened since). The financial math on the back of my envelope doesn't work for the kit with VWOA still paying for the repairs...

Cheers,
The equation is based on them continuing to take care of all of us. We have no idea what VWoA will say if they get failure with kit installed. As crazy as it sounds and even though it would save VW money on the repair, they could cook up an excuse not to cover.

We also have no idea when/if VWoA will STOP paying for the repairs regardless of miles. I don't think I have seen any repairs refused.... I also don't know what the highest mileage repair has been either. What I do know is that once they stop paying, we're all gonna want a set of his kits. :eek:
 

53 willys

Veteran Member
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Aug 2, 2008
Location
Utah
TDI
2010 Sportwagen TDI~LOVE/HATE~
The equation is based on them continuing to take care of all of us. We have no idea what VWoA will say if they get failure with kit installed. As crazy as it sounds and even though it would save VW money on the repair, they could cook up an excuse not to cover.

We also have no idea when/if VWoA will STOP paying for the repairs regardless of miles. I don't think I have seen any repairs refused.... I also don't know what the highest mileage repair has been either. What I do know is that once they stop paying, we're all gonna want a set of his kits. :eek:

highest mile repair I can remember seeing vw paying for and reported on tdiclub was around 185,000 miles IIRC
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
Remember that it is VWoA covering the repairs and not VWC.
 

Jesse_Boyer

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2007
Location
Sioux Falls, SD
TDI
I'm all out...
It's been a little while since I researched the '09+ cars, but is VWoA now paying for any/all failures? I distinctly recall hearing of a few very low mile failures and VW balked at replacing the systems and indicated they were user error when the user insisted otherwise. Furthermore, others definitely have paid upwards of 7-9k to replace their own complete fuel systems.

So... what gives?
 

PlaneCrazy

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 3, 2000
Location
Province of Quebec, Canada
TDI
Gone...
It's been a little while since I researched the '09+ cars, but is VWoA now paying for any/all failures? I distinctly recall hearing of a few very low mile failures and VW balked at replacing the systems and indicated they were user error when the user insisted otherwise. Furthermore, others definitely have paid upwards of 7-9k to replace their own complete fuel systems.

So... what gives?
I gather that in the US so far they have been systematically paying for all failures. Assuming that the fueling guards are in place, it's getting hard for them to claim a fueling error is the issue though I suppose they could still claim that the fuel itself was contaminated.

In Canada though, it's another story. The HPFP isn't even covered by the powertrain warranty. Once the 80k km (50k miles) bumper-to-bumper warranty is up, you're out of luck. When VW replaced mine (before complete failure they claim, and to solve a problem that was not solved by HPFP replacement), I had 92k km on the car, just 12k beyond the b-to-b warranty. VW initially refused to pay anything. Coincidentally so did I. VW eventually settled on paying 2/3 for a reman part, I insisted on new so the VW contribution ended up being 1/2.

I'm sure if it blew now at 116k km, I'd be out of luck, as the new part was only covered for 1 yr/20k km.

You're in the US so you might be OK, but if I was in your shoes, I'd try and stick to VW-certified used bought from a VW dealer, as you'd get at least some warranty plus a car with (supposedly) a pedigree and documented service which will help your case if there was an issue.
 
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kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
It's been a little while since I researched the '09+ cars, but is VWoA now paying for any/all failures? I distinctly recall hearing of a few very low mile failures and VW balked at replacing the systems and indicated they were user error when the user insisted otherwise. Furthermore, others definitely have paid upwards of 7-9k to replace their own complete fuel systems.

So... what gives?
I think some early failures were claimed to be from misfueling and may not have been covered immediately. From posts on here, it sounds like all current failures are being covered in the US.
 

old_jon

Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2013
Location
Centerville, Ohio
TDI
2009 Jetta sedan, white/tan, 6 spd
Considering a 2009 TDI Sportwagen

Hi folks,
I'm looking at a 2009 TDI Sportwagen with 108K mi on it. It's at a local car lot having passed through an auction. CarFax seems to show a "by the book" maintenance history at a VW dealer. How big a risk is this car relative to the HPFP issue? I'm going to call the dealer listed in CarFax & see what they have to say. Thanks!
 

ATR

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 18, 2005
Location
Baltimore
TDI
2011 Golf TDI 6MT
Hi folks,
I'm looking at a 2009 TDI Sportwagen with 108K mi on it. It's at a local car lot having passed through an auction. CarFax seems to show a "by the book" maintenance history at a VW dealer. How big a risk is this car relative to the HPFP issue? I'm going to call the dealer listed in CarFax & see what they have to say. Thanks!
I would see if the HPFP was ever replaced. Only reason I say that is the 09's were the first year with the HPFP with a estimated 3-5% failure rate. (Seems to be a little lower with newer models).

Honestly, if the deal is good and you live in the USA then don't sweat it much. If the fuel pump does indeed fail (still a unlikely event) then you'll likely be covered by VWoA at least 75% of the replacement cost.
 

Becky C

New member
Joined
Aug 7, 2014
Location
Sacramento, CA
TDI
2011 Jetta SportWagen
Hi All,
I'm new to the forums and new to TDI ownership. Unfortunately, it's turning out to be a steep learning curve concerning the HPFP issue. I bought a 2011 JSW (~56k miles) about a week and a half ago and 5 days later it died. It's been towed to a VW dealership and is being taken care of under the powertrain warranty.

My question to all of you is this: is there a history of repeated failures after replacement? It seems from my reading on this forum that there have been some minor redesigns of the fuel pump, but should I expect this to happen again? I haven't come upon any so far in my reading on these forums, but I'm afraid I just haven't found the right thread yet….

Thank you!
 

Matt927

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Location
Northeast
TDI
several
Some have had failures after replacement. VWOA and Bosch are not exactly forthcoming with regards to changes made to the fuel pump. There have been several revisions though that were made public to the NHTSA, different coatings etc on the internals of the pump. But it looks like you found this out on your own.

Start reading on the quality of American diesel fuel as well as what Bosch (pump manufacturer) requires in terms of a wear scar rating.

Please report your failure here: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=299854&page=27

Please also report your failure to the NHTSA and help contribute to the ongoing investigation.

You will discover VWOA have been covering these failures well outside of warranty, sometimes it might take a little push from the customer. Luckily you will not have to deal with this.
 

ATR

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 18, 2005
Location
Baltimore
TDI
2011 Golf TDI 6MT
Hi All,
I'm new to the forums and new to TDI ownership. Unfortunately, it's turning out to be a steep learning curve concerning the HPFP issue. I bought a 2011 JSW (~56k miles) about a week and a half ago and 5 days later it died. It's been towed to a VW dealership and is being taken care of under the powertrain warranty.

My question to all of you is this: is there a history of repeated failures after replacement? It seems from my reading on this forum that there have been some minor redesigns of the fuel pump, but should I expect this to happen again? I haven't come upon any so far in my reading on these forums, but I'm afraid I just haven't found the right thread yet….

Thank you!
Matt927 pretty much laid it out.

To answer your question...
From what I read very few folks that have had a pump fail had repeat failures. I have a feeling that the repeat failures may have been because the tech working on the car didn't follow through on all the things that needed done to resolve the issues. Granted it may also have been because of dumb luck that they had the repeat failures.
 

fnjimmy!

Chucklechump
Joined
Apr 11, 2009
Location
Tacoma, WA
TDI
TDIdiot
Matt927 pretty much laid it out.
To answer your question...
From what I read very few folks that have had a pump fail had repeat failures. I have a feeling that the repeat failures may have been because the tech working on the car didn't follow through on all the things that needed done to resolve the issues. Granted it may also have been because of dumb luck that they had the repeat failures.
One thing to consider with repeat failures is whether the cause of the failure (fuel contamination etc) was identified and acknowledged in round one. If an owner unwittingly causes failure of the first pump and doesn't change their behavior, the second failure is practically guaranteed. This isn't to say all failures have a cause, but the likelihood of two consecutive failures due to manufacturing defects are low.
 

Matt927

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Location
Northeast
TDI
several
True. Manufacturing defects happen. I would consider this pump's design defective in it not being able to tolerate the fuel quality in America.

I agree with ATR as well, VW techs not thoroughly cleaning the fuel system after a pump failure has contributed to replacement pump failures.
 
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fnjimmy!

Chucklechump
Joined
Apr 11, 2009
Location
Tacoma, WA
TDI
TDIdiot
True. Manufacturing defects happen. I would consider this pump's design defective in it not being able to tolerate the fuel quality in America.

I agree with ATR as well, VW techs not thoroughly cleaning the fuel system after a pump failure has contributed to replacement pump failures.
Unfortunately I think the issue is that the pump is perfectly adequate for American diesel fuel, but intolerant of the substances that wind up in the fuel tanks of American cars due to poor discipline in the supply chain, be it with careless handling during transportation, or problems with the infrastructure at a particular station. Should the pumps be more durable? Probably. Should our fuel be better? Probably. Is either a reason not to buy and enjoy a TDI? Probably not.
 

Mrrogers1

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2006
Location
Omaha NEEEBRASKA
TDI
2011 Golf TDI 6MT, 2011 Jetta TDI DSG, 2015 Golf Sportwagen S TDI DSG
Unfortunately I think the issue is that the pump is perfectly adequate for American diesel fuel, but intolerant of the substances that wind up in the fuel tanks of American cars due to poor discipline in the supply chain, be it with careless handling during transportation, or problems with the infrastructure at a particular station. Should the pumps be more durable? Probably. Should our fuel be better? Probably. Is either a reason not to buy and enjoy a TDI? Probably not.
While they re paying for it, no. This answer will SWIFTLY change when/if they stop. I feel like the Bean counters have lost the bet that came out of the low tolerances created by the pump+high rail pressure.

We, as the consumer, should not be paying for this as we can't control fuel quality, beyond putting what we reasonably expect to be D2, in our cars. I run additives, religiously in hopes of the little bit of head room the lubricity should provide but it's no guarantee and it worries me slightly, but not much because VWoA is doing right by us.... Now.

Sent from my LG-LS980 using Tapatalk
 

VkkimW

New member
Joined
Nov 11, 2014
Location
Canada
TDI
2000 Jetta
What is the torque value for the two screws on Fuel Metering Valve?

I need to inspect the internal of hpfp on my 2013 Mk6 TDI Golf Wagon, to see if any swarfs. The car was driven ~1Km after misfueling...
 

KonaJack

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2010
Location
Barrington, IL
TDI
2011 VW Golf
Email from Optilube today. If this isn't more evidence of the big potential problems that variable quality Biodiesel in the US supply chain poses for CR engines, I don't know what is:

"First we want to alert you of a small problem that a few Opti-Lube XPD and XL user could find. Some might see small particles that look black on the bottom of their container. Bio-diesel is a small part of these formulas that have up to 12 different chemicals. Unfortunately, a bad batch of Bio-Diesel has effected some. If you believe you have some of the bad additive (XPD or XL) please send us the name, address and amount of product you ordered and we will replace it. You can also contact Opti-Lube direct and ask for replacement or a refund. Contacting Opti-Lube direct will be your only option for a possible refund. 1-888-326-6789"
 

psrumors

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2013
Location
Cartersville, GA
TDI
MK4
I assume the HPFP relies on diesel for not only lubrication but also heat dissipation.

Has anyone measured the temp of the fuel as the tank gets closer to empty?

I always fill up when the tank is around 1/4 to 3/8 till empty. That puts me adding between 10.5 and 12.5 gallons, filled to the rim.

The car always runs much better once the tank is filled which I am sure is due in part to the temp of the fuel. As the tank gets low the fuel heats which makes me wonder just how hot is it getting and what affects that has on the HPFP.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
You can easily watch fuel temps with a scan tool, it is in the ECU's data blocks. And it does increase as the tank level drops, but not a lot, and it is generally a bigger change on hot days after driving for a long time.

For some reason, though, I think they ditched the fuel cooler on all the CRs. It was found on VEs with automatics, and all PDs.
 

psrumors

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2013
Location
Cartersville, GA
TDI
MK4
You can easily watch fuel temps with a scan tool, it is in the ECU's data blocks. And it does increase as the tank level drops, but not a lot, and it is generally a bigger change on hot days after driving for a long time.
For some reason, though, I think they ditched the fuel cooler on all the CRs. It was found on VEs with automatics, and all PDs.
I honestly had not even looked for fuel temps in my scan gauge. I'll have to start watching.

My powerstroke has a fuel cooler on it. I had originally built the fuel system without a cooler but there was so much difference between full and empty in the way the truck ran I want back and added a cooler. That is what got me thinking about the VW.
 

bluey

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 18, 2008
Location
Australia
TDI
Skoda Yeti 2.0L 103kW CR TDI (CFHC) [MY09 Polo TDI 1.9 74kW (AXR) retired with hail damage]
Have recently pumped out a nearly full fuel tank of a PD diesel and was very surprised by how warm the fuel was. Didn't measure the temp, but it felt like probably hot bath water through the wall of the plastic jerry can. According to the self study guide, the 1.9PD has a fuel cooler, but the 2.0CR does not.

Can only presume the fuel in the PD is purposely heated by circulation through the engine, and that this circulation is controlled in the CR so that cooling is not required. The HPFP doesn't pump through the engine when the rail is up to pressure unlike the PD.

I guess I could do IR measurements on the outside of the tank on an ongoing basis as the tank empties.
 
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kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
The car always runs much better once the tank is filled which I am sure is due in part to the temp of the fuel. As the tank gets low the fuel heats which makes me wonder just how hot is it getting and what affects that has on the HPFP.
Even on long trips, I can't say that I've noticed any difference in how the car runs at full versus when the warning light comes on. Did over 1000 miles at Christmas so had three fills and two low tanks for comparison. I notice a little smoother ride with that extra weight in the back, but no difference in engine performance.
 

nhdude

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2005
Location
New Hampshire
TDI
2011 JSW 6M gone back to VWoA, 1996 Passat Wagon (RIP)
First one went out at 20000 miles in 2012 second one just went at 118000 both covered under warranty.
Wow, that's not encouraging at all :mad:. Hope you're all done with HPFP replacements for a while! I have 83K and do see a little metal in the fuel filter each time I replace it so a bit concerned. Also having DPF replaced this week due to it having a crack in it as evidenced by EGR MIL and sooty tailpipes. Might be time to consider the new gasser GSW!
 
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