The age of engine downsizing is over, says Volkswagen

atc98002

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I don't give a hoot about engine sizing, up or down. Give me my diesel back!
 

PlaneCrazy

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My bet is passenger diesels will be eliminated from the US market eventually.
Not just the US, they're attracting more and more attention in Europe as well. Attention of the negative kind.

I've given up on them for N. America, the Rube Goldberg plumbing required to make the cheat... er... pass emissions is just a maintenance nightmare. With gas engines getting better, the added cost just won't be worth it. My 1.8 TSI averages exactly 1.0 L/100 km more than my previous TDI, and right now diesel is 3 cents more per litre than RUG where I live, and was much more than that over the winter.

Now FCA is in trouble for the cheating with their diesels on the RAM and Grand Cherokee.

It was fun while it lasted...
 

atc98002

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Fingers crossed that Mazda still brings the CX-5 diesel to the US. And the Traverse is still supposed to be coming. But I have a hunch a hybrid will be in my future. The new Tiguan coming this summer with the powertrain from the Jetta Hybrid would be nice. I was quite impressed when I drove a Jetta (admittedly a short drive).
 

POWERSTROKE

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I'm still driving both my 02 TDIs. Still really like them although they're getting up there in age. With that being said, I pretty much agree with you. The regulations have forced these engines out of the market for good. Quite frankly, how can manufacturers make it worthwhile? They can't. With gas engines getting 36 mpg and upwards, its just not even worth the maintenance with these new systems that have been introduces to make it work.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Meh, since the first of this year I've bought two more diesels. And if there won't be any more new ones, I won't ever buy another new car. And the EPA can squirm when all my old DPF-less diesels are still puttering along. Heck, I even have two that never even had a catalyst. ;)
 

POWERSTROKE

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I'm keeping my diesels and will start a collection of acvws. Already have one of those. They're cool because you can have almost everything you need in the trunk to fix a breakdown.
 

tikal

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I'm still driving both my 02 TDIs. Still really like them although they're getting up there in age. With that being said, I pretty much agree with you. The regulations have forced these engines out of the market for good. Quite frankly, how can manufacturers make it worthwhile? They can't. With gas engines getting 36 mpg and upwards, its just not even worth the maintenance with these new systems that have been introduces to make it work.
Maybe on certain specific conditions gas engines match or even beat their light duty diesel counterparts MPG. Now add the numbers take the average and the diesel engine pulls ahead and does not look back!
For 2015 year for these three hatchbacks:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - Fuelly miles - - - Fuelly Average MPG
2015 Golf TSI - - - - 1,000,000 - - - - 29.8
2015 Golf TDI - - - - 5,180,000 - - - - 41.7
2015 Mazada 3 - - - 1,000,000 - - - - -32.1
Cost of ownership is, of course, very complex and also subjective.
 

evantful

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Maybe on certain specific conditions gas engines match or even beat their light duty diesel counterparts MPG. Now add the numbers take the average and the diesel engine pulls ahead and does not look back!
Again I think the issue with those numbers is how the driver is using their cars.

Look at the Miles Driven number, then factor in that the TDI in a best case scenario made up for 50% of sales of the 2015 Golf. What that says is on average the TDI is being driven much longer per trip than a TSI, most likely on the highway, and thats going to have a massive effect on the F/E numbers presented.

My 1.8 TSI long term average having just passed 18k (on track for 24k miles a year) is 38.1mpg
 

tikal

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Again I think the issue with those numbers is how the driver is using their cars.
Look at the Miles Driven number, then factor in that the TDI in a best case scenario made up for 50% of sales of the 2015 Golf. What that says is on average the TDI is being driven much longer per trip than a TSI, most likely on the highway, and thats going to have a massive effect on the F/E numbers presented.
My 1.8 TSI long term average having just passed 18k (on track for 24k miles a year) is 38.1mpg
Yes that is a point to consider also. I do not disagree.

You would have to look in more detail to see the percentage of hwy vs city for the numbers above. Also it could be that the TDIs are more driven loaded than their gasoline counterparts. I do not know.

Indeed the gasoline internal combustion engines have improved/refined in the last xx years. But the same applies to the light duty diesel engines, no? On top of that TDIs had to deal with much more strict emission regulations. Despite of this the Central Theorem Limit Theorem (CLT) tells us by looking at databases such as Fuelly that still, on the average, the MPG of a light duty diesel engine is better by at least 20% (approximately).
 
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evantful

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I think the fuelly numbers just hold to many varaibles given driver types that are very distinct to TDI owners.

What Im presenting is my direct comparison of a 2013 CR TDI that I purchased new which was driven for just over 70k before being sold back, to my 2016 1.8TSI which was purchased in late September of 2016 with currently 18k miles. I think I generally represent the kind of driver that would consider a TDI. High mileage average per year, on Highway

-Both drive on 18" wheels in the summer, both using Pirelli P7's
-Both have used the exact same wheel/tire combo (Audi 16x7" with General Arctic altimax 215/55/16) for snow tires in the winter
-I live in the same house as I did during my total duration of the CR TDI
-My commute and personal travel is virtually identical
-Both are 6 speed automatics, the TDI having the DSG, the TSI the 09G Aisin.

Right now Im 14% less F/E

I expect my F/E of the 1.8TSI to increase to about 39mpg over the course of the spring summer and early fall. Given about 75% of my current mileage right now was on snow tires and in the cold weather months. Thats about a 12% difference.

Now factor in, on average in my area, that Diesel prices are 15 cents higher than 87, that is a 6% decrease in fuel cost. So overall Im looking at a difference of 6-8% between the two, in favor of the TDI

That all being said, I think my 2013 TDI was my favorite vehicle I have ever owned. I was extremely sad to see it go but the finances simply favored the buyback on my end.
With that being said, the 1.8TSI has really exceeded any expectation I had.
 
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turbobrick240

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I plan to keep my golf. Even without a fix I figure I'll come out ahead financially before 300k miles- vs. buying any new car that I'd want to drive. Plus I'll be driving a car that I truly enjoy. I can understand why the buyback is so attractive to so many though.
 

tikal

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This is a very good summary and fairly apples to apples. Thank you.

I think where the TDI still shines by double digits efficiency percentage improvement vs gasoline is under load conditions (passengers, cargo, mountains, wind and combinations). More performance and still better MPG.

I think the fuelly numbers just hold to many varaibles given driver types that are very distinct to TDI owners.

What Im presenting is my direct comparison of a 2013 CR TDI that I purchased new which was driven for just over 70k before being sold back, to my 2016 1.8TSI which was purchased in late September of 2016 with currently 18k miles. I think I generally represent the kind of driver that would consider a TDI. High mileage average per year, on Highway

-Both drive on 18" wheels in the summer, both using Pirelli P7's
-Both have used the exact same wheel/tire combo (Audi 16x7" with General Arctic altimax 215/55/16) for snow tires in the winter
-I live in the same house as I did during my total duration of the CR TDI
-My commute and personal travel is virtually identical
-Both are 6 speed automatics, the TDI having the DSG, the TSI the 09G Aisin.

Right now Im 14% less F/E

I expect my F/E of the 1.8TSI to increase to about 39mpg over the course of the spring summer and early fall. Given about 75% of my current mileage right now was on snow tires and in the cold weather months. Thats about a 12% difference.

Now factor in, on average in my area, that Diesel prices are 15 cents higher than 87, that is a 6% decrease in fuel cost. So overall Im looking at a difference of 6-8% between the two, in favor of the TDI

That all being said, I think my 2013 TDI was my favorite vehicle I have ever owned. I was extremely sad to see it go but the finances simply favored the buyback on my end.
With that being said, the 1.8TSI has really exceeded any expectation I had.
 
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PlaneCrazy

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I think the fuelly numbers just hold to many varaibles given driver types that are very distinct to TDI owners.

What Im presenting is my direct comparison of a 2013 CR TDI that I purchased new which was driven for just over 70k before being sold back, to my 2016 1.8TSI which was purchased in late September of 2016 with currently 18k miles. I think I generally represent the kind of driver that would consider a TDI. High mileage average per year, on Highway

-Both drive on 18" wheels in the summer, both using Pirelli P7's
-Both have used the exact same wheel/tire combo (Audi 16x7" with General Arctic altimax 215/55/16) for snow tires in the winter
-I live in the same house as I did during my total duration of the CR TDI
-My commute and personal travel is virtually identical
-Both are 6 speed automatics, the TDI having the DSG, the TSI the 09G Aisin.

Right now Im 14% less F/E

I expect my F/E of the 1.8TSI to increase to about 39mpg over the course of the spring summer and early fall. Given about 75% of my current mileage right now was on snow tires and in the cold weather months. Thats about a 12% difference.

Now factor in, on average in my area, that Diesel prices are 15 cents higher than 87, that is a 6% decrease in fuel cost. So overall Im looking at a difference of 6-8% between the two, in favor of the TDI

That all being said, I think my 2013 TDI was my favorite vehicle I have ever owned. I was extremely sad to see it go but the finances simply favored the buyback on my end.
With that being said, the 1.8TSI has really exceeded any expectation I had.
I'm seeing about 20% higher consumption with my TSI versus my previous TDI under similar conditions: roughly 5.0 L/100 km average for the TDI, 5.8-6.0 for the TSI.

At the moment diesel is 3 cents more than RUG here (per litre). In winter I've seen it as high as 20 cents per litre higher. I traded my TDI in just before dieselgate, and at that time as I no longer had a long commute the added cost, complexity and unreliability of the diesel no longer made sense. As with you, the 1.8 TSI has exceeded my expectations, moreover it is a very pleasant engine, good torque down low, better top end, faster, much smoother and way quieter.

We spent over 3000 km in a Mk VII TDI in the UK last summer, and when we got to the airport parking after we flew home, my wife and I both remarked at the same time how much quieter my TSI was.

We're now about to make the switch for her car, we received the buyback offer for her TDI and are trading it for a Golf TSI wagon (basic Trendline with connectivity+ package). If we can ever get RicePoint to approve her signed offer and give us a trade-in appointment.
 

bhtooefr

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Right now Im 14% less F/E
And note that you're running a fuel with 12-14% less energy (and 12-14% lower CO2 emissions) per gallon, so if you're at 14% more fuel consumed... you're basically just as efficient.
 

turbobrick240

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Weren't there problems with the 1.8TSI shearing off cam lobes, potentially resulting in loss of the power brakes? I agree that fuelly numbers might not be a super accurate reference. I'd just compare the EPA numbers, realizing that they tend to be biased somewhat in favor gassers.
 

PlaneCrazy

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Weren't there problems with the 1.8TSI shearing off cam lobes, potentially resulting in loss of the power brakes? I agree that fuelly numbers might not be a super accurate reference. I'd just compare the EPA numbers, realizing that they tend to be biased somewhat in favor gassers.
There was a recall for that. It was only for a specific batch made between specific dates, and oddly enough, the fix was a software change. It did not in fact apply to my car, it was not in the bad batch based on manufacturing date.
 

kjclow

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Fingers crossed that Mazda still brings the CX-5 diesel to the US. And the Traverse is still supposed to be coming. But I have a hunch a hybrid will be in my future. The new Tiguan coming this summer with the powertrain from the Jetta Hybrid would be nice. I was quite impressed when I drove a Jetta (admittedly a short drive).
I'm guessing that with all of these new lawsuits and business raids, Mazda and GM will, at a minimum, delay launch of the new diesel SUVs until 2019 models. More likely, we won't see them at all.
 

turbobrick240

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There was a recall for that. It was only for a specific batch made between specific dates, and oddly enough, the fix was a software change. It did not in fact apply to my car, it was not in the bad batch based on manufacturing date.
That is odd. I wouldn't want a software only fix for a batch of defective camshafts.
 

tikal

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And note that you're running a fuel with 12-14% less energy (and 12-14% lower CO2 emissions) per gallon, so if you're at 14% more fuel consumed... you're basically just as efficient.
Yes good point. Also it takes less energy to refine diesel and the current light duty diesel vehicles have to deal with more taxing emission equipment that impacts negatively the MPG (few % points probably).

At the end of the day efficiency of a vehicle to an American buyer is less important than other factors such as horsepower/performance, looks, cargo/passenger space, gadgets, etc. To me, if fuel prices stay around $2-$3/Gallon then the sale of fuel efficient vehicles will be either flat or decline somewhat.
 
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kjclow

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Yes, it takes less energy to refine diesel but then they have to strip the sulfur. Takes away some of the refining advantage. Diesel fuel is also easier to send back through the cracker and force it into producing more gasoline per barrel, depending on the current market needs and pricing.
 

tikal

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I understand that now the refineries are starting to make ultra low sulphur gasoline also.
 

turbobrick240

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And note that you're running a fuel with 12-14% less energy (and 12-14% lower CO2 emissions) per gallon, so if you're at 14% more fuel consumed... you're basically just as efficient.

The peak thermal efficiency for a 2L cr tdi is ~43%. I'm guessing the peak thermal efficiency for the 1.8 tsi is 36% or less (Atkinson cycle prii are 36-40%). That's a roughly 16%+ difference in efficiency. Obviously peak thermal efficiency doesn't correlate 100% with real world mpg, but it shows what is possible. The thermal efficiency takes into account the greater energy content of gasoline by weight.
 
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flee

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Maybe they reduced the cam fracturing by dialing back the crank acceleration at certain rpms?
As in at a resonating frequency? The breathers I'm not so sure about.
 
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turbobrick240

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I imagine they dialed the torque back. Pretty sure whatever they did, it takes a slice from the powerband somewhere.
 

turbobrick240

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I notice in the literature for the 1.8 tsi they promote it as having a thin wall block. Maybe I'm a dinosaur, but the term thin wall block is not confidence inspiring to me.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
I think that is pretty common from many newer engines. The EA888 marks the first time that (at least on any engines sold here, except the 1.4L) that the gasoline fueled variant is not the same as the diesel fueled variant. So, consequently, much of the overbuilt robustness of the previous gasoline engines was given up, since there is no "need" for it as there is no diesel version. Doesn't mean that they are wimpy just means that there is likely not as high of a margin as was found previously.

As I have stated many times here before, the earlier EA888 engines have proven to be pretty craptastic after 80k miles or so. But they have made steady improvements, some of which fall into the category of "turd polish" in my opinion, but at least they have acknowledged most of its shortcomings. And the "new" 1.8L and 2.0L have undergone quite a few changes that hopefully will have addressed the problems inherent with this engine family.

So far, however, the problems with the previous versions have kept us busy here at the shop. So much so, that despite being Volkswagen's biggest fan, I would never EVER own a Tiguan or Eos and would steadfastly cross any other VAG product off my wish list that uses or has the option of a version of that engine.

Time will tell how the newer versions hold up. So far the only thing I have experienced with them is the new style ignition coils melted themselves to the valve cover with such resolve that all the coils need to be replaced every time you change the plugs because they get destroyed upon removal. Which is ironic, given the fact that the previous EA888 engines had the same ignition coil problems as the older cars like my 2004 AWM 1.8t engine in my Passat, so I thought "Oh, they finally started from scratch and designed a totally new ignition coil!" Well, yeah, they went from failing randomly and frequently to breaking if you touch them. Only difference now is they cost four times as much. :rolleyes:

I am also not a big fan of the plastic oil pans. You think aluminum pans were fragile? HA! Cruising down the road in your new GTI and driving over a dead squirrel can result in a gaping hole in the bottom of your engine. Seen it. Fixed it. Not good.
 
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20IndigoBlue02

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the EA113's has the same ignition coil problems, that precedes the ea888 ignition coil problems.

Let's see how the ea888-3B does on the new Tiguan, as well as the A4 Ultra, aka the Budack cycle version aka modified Miller Cycle.
 
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