NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

aja8888

Top Post Dawg
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Dec 25, 2007
Location
Texas..RETIRED 12/31/17
TDI
Out of TDI's
I DON'T UNDERSTAND these cheap-azz petroleum companies who make billions of dollars in profit. Would it KILL them to dose up a little stronger on lubricity additives to transform the fuel into a RELIABLE low 400's um? Would it KILL them to tighten up their quality control to eliminate any cross-contamination?
Instead of just complaining, why don't you try to convince them of that? I mean they are receptive to communication from customers.

One thing that would make this situation better is to have retail stations that sell only diesel. Then the potential for contamination by gasoline (no trucks carrying loads of gasoline) would be lower. Also, the consumer would not have to make a choice on what pump handle to pick.
 

RabbitGTI

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 20, 1997
Location
Wisconsin
TDI
B4 Passat Sedan
DON'T UNDERSTAND these cheap-azz petroleum companies who make billions of dollars in profit. Would it KILL them to dose up a little stronger on lubricity additives to transform the fuel into a RELIABLE low 400's um? Would it KILL them to tighten up their quality control to eliminate any cross-contamination?
Unless the government enforces standards, they will do nothing because it costs them money to appease a tiny population of common rail drivers. The place to start is a nicely worded letter and an information packet mailed to your senator and congressman.
 

aja8888

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 25, 2007
Location
Texas..RETIRED 12/31/17
TDI
Out of TDI's
Unless the government enforces standards, they will do nothing because it costs them money to appease a tiny population of common rail drivers. The place to start is a nicely worded letter and an information packet mailed to your senator and congressman.
I think "diesel" is a bad word in government talk. This is partially due to political agendas and Greenies movements. Writing your senator or congressman will probably only get you a form letter reply.
 

RabbitGTI

Top Post Dawg
Joined
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Location
Wisconsin
TDI
B4 Passat Sedan
I think "diesel" is a bad word in government talk. This is partially due to political agendas and Greenies movements. Writing your senator or congressman will probably only get you a form letter reply.
Gotta educate the people who make the rules. :)
 

salad

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 20, 2007
Location
Minnesota
TDI
2011 JSW, 2012 Q7
No state, to my knowledge, mandates over 5% biodiesel (actually, I don't think any mandate over 2% biodiesel).

However, Illinois has massive tax breaks for 11% biodiesel, so it's hard to find any less than that in IL.

Pretty sure MN has been a 5% state since the 2009s came out. It was mandated to go up to something ridiculous by 2013 and then got pushed back. I'm not sure what the current timeline for biodiesel is now, but google came up with - https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=239.77 .

I don't remember seeing any reports of failures from MN in the list hosted on this forum. Then again, there weren't too many 2009 tdis on the roads in MN initially.
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
How come it was never an issue with previous generation TDIs?
... because the previous generations did not use a Bosch CP4.1 injection pump.

The older TDI engines would generally stop running if they were fed too much gasoline, but not suffer $8000 - $10,000 of damage in the process. Even if the injector pump on a rotary-pump TDI kicked the bucket, it did not cost anywhere near that much to fix.

We also have to remember that "misfueling" has an element of owner/operator responsibility (to use the filler nozzle that says "diesel" at the filling station) but also a responsibility of the distribution network to actually supply diesel fuel of adequate quality at that point. The older diesel engines (of all types) appeared to be reasonably fault-tolerant for a little bit of contamination with gasoline, etc. The CP4.1 appears more sensitive, and in my view, too sensitive.
 

turbocharged798

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2009
Location
Ellenville, NY
TDI
99.5 black ALH Jetta;09 Gasser Jetta
Right I know that but I am trying to point out in the end the Botch CP4.1 pump is a POS.

As a side note, I would absolutely love to get my hands on a failed CP4.1 to see what actually happens and figure out if maybe the pump can be modified to be stronger(ie steel sleeve).

Anybody have a failed HPFP they want to send my way? I'll pay you for shipping and time...
 
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dweisel

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 28, 2006
Location
Wheeling, West Virginia
TDI
dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
Right I know that but I am trying to point out in the end the Botch CP4.1 pump is a POS.

As a side note, I would absolutely love to get my hands on a failed CP4.1 to see what actually happens and figure out if maybe the pump can be modified to be stronger(ie steel sleeve).

Anybody have a failed HPFP they want to send my way? I'll pay you for shipping and time...
It's a waste of time and money to try and improve the Cp4.1 when the Cp3 retro fit that 2micron is now profecting should give a long trouble free service life.

Forget the Cp4.1. The aluminum pump housing is and was an engineering FAIL!
 

turbocharged798

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2009
Location
Ellenville, NY
TDI
99.5 black ALH Jetta;09 Gasser Jetta
Punch out the housing and throw in a steel liner. Problem solved.

Last I knew, the 3.1 Retrofit seemed to be quite the project.
 

Claudio

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2009
Location
IL
TDI
09 Jetta SW
... because the previous generations did not use a Bosch CP4.1 injection pump.

The older TDI engines would generally stop running if they were fed too much gasoline, but not suffer $8000 - $10,000 of damage in the process. Even if the injector pump on a rotary-pump TDI kicked the bucket, it did not cost anywhere near that much to fix.

We also have to remember that "misfueling" has an element of owner/operator responsibility (to use the filler nozzle that says "diesel" at the filling station) but also a responsibility of the distribution network to actually supply diesel fuel of adequate quality at that point. The older diesel engines (of all types) appeared to be reasonably fault-tolerant for a little bit of contamination with gasoline, etc. The CP4.1 appears more sensitive, and in my view, too sensitive.
when i worked in Italy we had Punto 1.9 diesel as a company car. A coworker filled it up with RUG and drove highway for several miles, the car was runnig but slow, he got towed, they emptied the tank, filled with diesel and the car ran like new for several years! :D
 

dweisel

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 28, 2006
Location
Wheeling, West Virginia
TDI
dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
Here are some questions I asked 2micron about the Cp3 hpfp a couple of days ago with his responce.

A couple of questions:1) The Cp3 pump. Is the pump housing that the followers run in made of steel? Yes, the entire housing is steel and hardened as well. The bores are beautiful, appear to be ground to a very good finish.

2)What is the main factor that makes the Cp3 a more durable pump? Above, plus it has no cam and roller action. The shaft eccentric "wobbles" a trichoidial (triangular) ring, which actuated the buckets, that actuate the plungers. There is minimal side load on the buckets. I"ll send you a couple of videos.

3) Does the Cp3 pump shed metal into the fuel system when they do fail and contaminate the entire fuel system? Never. The biggest issue is they tend to leak when the truck enthusiast group puts 100 psi or more from an aftermarket lift pump. Just o rings. If the pump fails, they just stop making pressure.
 

Plus 3 Golfer

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2008
Location
ARIZONA
TDI
Und tschüss! 2009 Jetta 12/23/2012
Here's a pivot table of Production Data by MY and State. Note a few Canadian Provinces are in the data.

 

Plus 3 Golfer

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2008
Location
ARIZONA
TDI
Und tschüss! 2009 Jetta 12/23/2012
Here's a table of warranty data. Note Puerto Rico has the worst %, followed by Hawaii. How's the fuel supply there? Since the Warranty Data Vin codes are all the same I can't proces by MY.

 

STEye

Active member
Joined
Dec 1, 2012
Location
MD
TDI
08 STI / 12 Impreza
That is very old, dating back from the origination of this investigation. The number of failures is well into several thousands now.
Sorry about that! I saw the date of the report and I thought it was current.
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
Punch out the housing and throw in a steel liner. Problem solved.

Last I knew, the 3.1 Retrofit seemed to be quite the project.
I do not think the plunger running in an aluminum bore is the main issue. The big problem in my view is that the interface between the cam and the follower has a roller with line contact against the cam and the force distribution around that roller doesn't give much assurance that the roller will rotate rather than slide. (Friction from roller to cam acting in the direction of the roller spinning; friction from roller to follower acts in the direction of holding it still and there is no mechanical advantage for it to roll rather than slide against the cam.)

The CP3 does not have this situation.

One of the sub-forums has a thread concerning dissection of the CP4.1 HPFP and its various shortcomings.
 

2micron

Vendor
Joined
Mar 23, 2012
Location
Canada
TDI
None
when i worked in Italy we had Punto 1.9 diesel as a company car. A coworker filled it up with RUG and drove highway for several miles, the car was runnig but slow, he got towed, they emptied the tank, filled with diesel and the car ran like new for several years! :D
Hello Claudio!!
Your Fiat would have used a CP1 Pump. Identical in design to the CP3, just much smaller. They are also very robust. Unfortunately, North America doesn't have a great supply of these to experiment with.
Here's a neat video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQsBMPLYMDA
.
In comparison, here is the "Twin Cylinder" version of our Pump (used in the Touareg and Ford Trucks)
(Look at minute 2:40, Compare how the two different pumps actuate the Plungers)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIok47p8zCw

Punch out the housing and throw in a steel liner. Problem solved.

Last I knew, the 3.1 Retrofit seemed to be quite the project.
Sure thing, a steel liner (Cast Iron better) would help, but it is one down fall of the Pump.
Gofaster and I discussed this a while back, here is the link:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=3981287#post3981287

Right I know that but I am trying to point out in the end the Botch CP4.1 pump is a POS.

As a side note, I would absolutely love to get my hands on a failed CP4.1 to see what actually happens and figure out if maybe the pump can be modified to be stronger(ie steel sleeve).

Anybody have a failed HPFP they want to send my way? I'll pay you for shipping and time...
Hello turbocharged798,
I have collected a pile of failed pumps. Shipping would be a killer from Canada. Right now, there is one on E-Bay for $89, free shipping to you from Cali. Check it out!!
In all the Pumps I bought, all the Cams are only 48-52 Rockwell. Quite soft and not easily Re-Made. It is possible, but very expensive to retrofit.
For me, the proven CP3 pump is cheaper and easier to experiment with. Please put your experience and ideas into one of the original Pumps!!
All the Best!
 

2micron

Vendor
Joined
Mar 23, 2012
Location
Canada
TDI
None
I do not think the plunger running in an aluminum bore is the main issue. The big problem in my view is that the interface between the cam and the follower has a roller with line contact against the cam and the force distribution around that roller doesn't give much assurance that the roller will rotate rather than slide. (Friction from roller to cam acting in the direction of the roller spinning; friction from roller to follower acts in the direction of holding it still and there is no mechanical advantage for it to roll rather than slide against the cam.)

The CP3 does not have this situation.

One of the sub-forums has a thread concerning dissection of the CP4.1 HPFP and its various shortcomings.
GoFaster - Well said. The Diameter of the roller is only 10mm. If it were larger, it may have a better chance of rolling, Rather than Skidding.
I started to Experiment with a 13mm Ceramic roller, but have since focused on the CP3 Experiments.
All the Best,
 
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STEye

Active member
Joined
Dec 1, 2012
Location
MD
TDI
08 STI / 12 Impreza
So just to be clear, the reports that came out yesterday contains data that VW submitted to the NHTSA, not just the ones that were reported by the end user?
 
C

Central Scrutinizer

Guest
2micron, thank you much for your efforts and enthusiasm. It's clear that many of us are sending big thoughts of encouragement your way and eagerly awaiting your proclamation of success.
 

Ski in NC

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 7, 2008
Location
Wilmington, NC USA
TDI
2001 Jetta ALH 5sp stock
I do not think the plunger running in an aluminum bore is the main issue. The big problem in my view is that the interface between the cam and the follower has a roller with line contact against the cam and the force distribution around that roller doesn't give much assurance that the roller will rotate rather than slide. (Friction from roller to cam acting in the direction of the roller spinning; friction from roller to follower acts in the direction of holding it still and there is no mechanical advantage for it to roll rather than slide against the cam.)

The CP3 does not have this situation.

One of the sub-forums has a thread concerning dissection of the CP4.1 HPFP and its various shortcomings.

That's my take on it as well. Almost every roller follower that works has an axle pin at smaller diameter than roller, that way roller is most certain to roll and not skid.
 

roostre

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2012
Location
Puget Sound, WA
TDI
2012 Golf TDI DSG
I do not think the plunger running in an aluminum bore is the main issue. The big problem in my view is that the interface between the cam and the follower has a roller with line contact against the cam and the force distribution around that roller doesn't give much assurance that the roller will rotate rather than slide. (Friction from roller to cam acting in the direction of the roller spinning; friction from roller to follower acts in the direction of holding it still and there is no mechanical advantage for it to roll rather than slide against the cam.)
The CP3 does not have this situation.
One of the sub-forums has a thread concerning dissection of the CP4.1 HPFP and its various shortcomings.
I wish had the technical ability to calculate and analyze the lubricated friction forces on this roller. When looking at pictures of a similar HPFP posted by 2micron it is very hard to visualize that this roller in the piston could ever be rotated reliably by the cam (however, maybe it is not supposed to rotate continuously the way I am assuming, as I have no background with this pump).

Here are the pictures I'm talking about (post #1705 in this thread):

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=3799956#post3799956
 
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darrelld

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2007
Location
North Texas
TDI
2014 Tesla Model S85, 2017 Chevy Bolt
So just to be clear, the reports that came out yesterday contains data that VW submitted to the NHTSA, not just the ones that were reported by the end user?
There are quite a few 2012 models and the data goes to 10/5/2012.
 

STEye

Active member
Joined
Dec 1, 2012
Location
MD
TDI
08 STI / 12 Impreza
I just don't understand why they don't change the pump design to the old one, like 2micron is doing. Does the new HPFP produce more pressure?
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
More pressure, less money.

Last I checked, the CP3.2 used on the Liberty CRD was (mind you, at Jeep prices, not wholesale) about $2800. The CP4.1 used on the CBEA/CJAA is about $1200 (at VW prices) last I checked.
 

Softrockrenegade

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2011
Location
Howellbama, NJ
TDI
None...2011 Golf DSG (replaced by VW W/) 2013 Passat SE 6M(bought back) Current 2017 sportwagen TSI 4Motion.
I think they use a completely different pump in Europe .
 
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