CARB Says "Nope" To 3.0L TDI Fix Proposal

donallen · Jul 20, 2016

IndigoBlueWagon said:
And if you exclude yourself from the class, what happens then? Some say that if the states are accepting payouts from VW they cannot deny registration renewal. Still some things we don't know.

There's a LOT we don't know yet, so we are having a serious agreement on that point.

Going back to your original response to my message: I completely understand that this is going to play out over at least two years (there are deadlines in mid-2018). But NOW is the time to offer comments on the settlement, because it is about to be cast in concrete. And unless there something the settlement documents don't say, such as your speculation that there is a tacit agreement on a less strict NOx target for Gen 1 cars between EPA/CARB and VW, the current settlement is unfair in the way I have already stated and won't reiterate.

IndigoBlueWagon · Jul 20, 2016

The proposed fix for Gen 1 cars does include a relaxed NOx target. Don't know where I saw that, but I think it's in the court documents.

donallen · Jul 20, 2016

IndigoBlueWagon said:
The proposed fix for Gen 1 cars does include a relaxed NOx target. Don't know where I saw that, but I think it's in the court documents.

It would be great if you could find it. I'll do a some digging too. I know that there was a public statement, a few months before the announcement of the settlement, from one of the CARB people who said that he believed that a fix to bring the Gen 1 cars into full compliance was not possible and that they might have to accept a compromise.

peterdaniel · Jul 20, 2016

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a21938/vw-audi-defeat-device/

Interesting read on the real reason VW took this cheating route

Jeta Life · Jul 20, 2016

"Acoustic Function" wow ! Details are finally emerging. No wonder these CRs are so quiet.

IFRCFI · Jul 20, 2016

donallen said:
It would be great if you could find it. I'll do a some digging too. I know that there was a public statement, a few months before the announcement of the settlement, from one of the CARB people who said that he believed that a fix to bring the Gen 1 cars into full compliance was not possible and that they might have to accept a compromise.

Todd Sax of CARB. He implied none, not just Gen 1, could be "fixed".

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/news/a28423/carb-fixing-vws-dirty-diesels-may-be-impossible/

Watch the last 20 seconds of the Todd Sax testimony video. He clearly states all 3 generations are unfixable.

http://www.sacbee.com/news/business/article65974982.html

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IndigoBlueWagon · Jul 20, 2016

That article is four months old. Lots has happened since then.

IFRCFI · Jul 20, 2016

IndigoBlueWagon said:
Lots has happened since then.

Lots of rejections, delays, and VW arrogance. Outside of that, not so much. The 2 years allotted to find a fix will come and go.

The latest 3.0L rejection is a clear indicator. A fix that meets regs, doesn't change MPG, performance or reliability simply doesn't exist.

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waltzconmigo · Jul 21, 2016

IFRCFI said:
Lots of rejections, delays, and VW arrogance. Outside of that, not so much. The 2 years allotted to find a fix will come and go.

The latest 3.0L rejection is a clear indicator. A fix that meets regs, doesn't change MPG, performance or reliability simply doesn't exist.

agree for the most part, are you aware that VW has been granted "permission" to meet another/different higher/lower (depends how you look at it) standard than other new vehicles? also, we do not know at what stage of any testing process they (VW, EPA/CARB) may be at.

not that I am hopeful on a fix but at this point the unknowns still out weight the knowns.

IFRCFI · Jul 22, 2016

waltzconmigo said:
are you aware that VW has been granted "permission" to meet another/different higher/lower (depends how you look at it) standard than other new vehicles?

Do you have a link for this? It's my understanding that EPA and CARB negotiated a timeline under which VW can submit fix proposals that still need to be approved by both agencies. I didn't see where they agreed to lower standards.

2 years can come and go, and the fix proposals can be rejected for standards, reliability, impact on performance and economy.

GoFaster · Jul 22, 2016

^ It's buried in the consent decree somewhere. VW and EPA/CARB have agreed to higher limits that the vehicles have to meet during "real world driving" over some of the same test routes that WVU originally used.

john.jackson9213 · Jul 22, 2016

GoFaster said:
^ It's buried in the consent decree somewhere. VW and EPA/CARB have agreed to higher limits that the vehicles have to meet during "real world driving" over some of the same test routes that WVU originally used.

"Think" I read that VW will fund emission offsets for that, so net effect is the same emission reduction. Sounded a bit like cap and trade?

IndigoBlueWagon · Jul 22, 2016

Just to add some interest to this thread, I've heard that the 3.0L TDIs are "an easy fix" according to VW. Just a reflash. Wonder if they'll even offer a buyback.

tadawson · Jul 22, 2016

Frankly, if the fixes work, it's absurd that they should be forced to offer a buyback for any of thier TDIs . . . . I guess the cash grabbers can thank the judge for that . . .

halfast3 · Jul 26, 2016

IndigoBlueWagon said:
Just to add some interest to this thread, I've heard that the 3.0L TDIs are "an easy fix" according to VW. Just a reflash. Wonder if they'll even offer a buyback.

Granted the 3.0L TDIs represent a very small % of the potential buybacks but the price per vehicle is so much greater that it behooves VW to come up with a fix and avoid the expen$e of a buyback.

durallymax · Jul 30, 2016

peterdaniel said:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a21938/vw-audi-defeat-device/

Interesting read on the real reason VW took this cheating route

While that article is intriguing, I'd like to see the actual documents because something doesn't add up and I suspect both the authors potential lack of technical knowledge and possibly VW/Audi's slight of hand could be to blame.

Audi did not invent "pilot injection", that concept is very old. How old I do not know, but GM patented their concept in the 1960s. Furthermore, didn't the TDIs from the 90s use pilot injection?

That aside, they state that the 04-08 V6 Audi's used this supposed function. Now I realize these were the first engines to use Bosch's piezo injector, but how is it they couldn't meet emissions and keep everything else in check with the ability to fire an injector 5 times per cycle? Is that not the sole purpose of multiple injections? Reduced noise, reduced emissions, reduced fuel usage and better performance? Bosch had already accomplished this with other engines running their common rail systems with solenoid injectors (Duramax is the most popular for us NA folks).

It almost seems like VW is feeding them some documents and hoping the prosecution doesn't know enough about the technical aspects and details.

If Audi really couldn't get their system tuned to be quiet enough and meet emissions, maybe they do need to consult the Japanese.

Then again, maybe there is some truth to this story as this snapshot may imply.

rgoetz · Jul 31, 2016

I have a question for which I've tried to find an answer unsuccessfully, so I will ask it here:

If in the next month I buy a used A6 3.0 TDI from an Audi dealer (used, not CPO, as they can't sell TDIs as CPOs), will I be entitled to the same fix/compensation/buy-back benefits (whatever those may end up being) that I would have had I bought pre-dieselgate?

(I'm not looking to profit from this. I would keep the car for 10+ years. I just don't want to get screwed.)

Many thanks and apololgies in advance if this answer was readily available.

IndigoBlueWagon · Jul 31, 2016

Since no fix or buyback has been identified yet for the 3.0s, the answer is, "who knows." IMO this is your strongest negotiating tool. Since the seller can make no promises about what will happen to these cars you should push hard for the lowest possible price. I think this is precisely why it's a great time to buy a 3.0. No value has been established by a buyback program.

Unfortunately there are no 3.0s with manual transmission, which, up until now, is a deal breaker for me. Otherwise I'd be looking.

rgoetz · Jul 31, 2016

IndigoBlueWagon said:
Since no fix or buyback has been identified yet for the 3.0s, the answer is, "who knows." IMO this is your strongest negotiating tool. Since the seller can make no promises about what will happen to these cars you should push hard for the lowest possible price. I think this is precisely why it's a great time to buy a 3.0. No value has been established by a buyback program.

Thanks.

Any 3.0 TDI I bought would still be under the factory warranty. That would give me additional comfort.

IndigoBlueWagon · Jul 31, 2016

Gen 2 is an easy fix. Reflash and an addition of a sensor to the adblue tank to make sure it has adblue in it.

I don't think VW has put any effort into the 3.0 fix yet. That why we get these gloom and doom threads describing how fixes have been rejected. I haven't read anything about a NoX trap, in fact no detail at all.

Today I stumbled onto my local Audi dealer's storage lot. Looked for TDIs. Didn't see any. But it may not be the only place they store cars.

scooperhsd · Jul 31, 2016

IndigoBlueWagon said:
Gen 2 is an easy fix. Reflash and an addition of a sensor to the adblue tank to make sure it has adblue in it.

I don't think VW has put any effort into the 3.0 fix yet. That why we get these gloom and doom threads describing how fixes have been rejected. I haven't read anything about a NoX trap, in fact no detail at all.

Today I stumbled onto my local Audi dealer's storage lot. Looked for TDIs. Didn't see any. But it may not be the only place they store cars.

I think you meant "Gen 3" is an easy fix

But the 3L should be as easy as the Gen 3's...

halfast3 · Jul 31, 2016

scooperhsd said:
I think you meant "Gen 3" is an easy fix
But the 3L should be as easy as the Gen 3's...

Broadly speaking, IMO, the 3.0 & gen 3 TDIs are functionally similar if not the same.

bird67 · Jul 31, 2016

IndigoBlueWagon said:
Gen 2 is an easy fix. Reflash and an addition of a sensor to the adblue tank to make sure it has adblue in it.

I don't think VW has put any effort into the 3.0 fix yet. That why we get these gloom and doom threads describing how fixes have been rejected. I haven't read anything about a NoX trap, in fact no detail at all.

Today I stumbled onto my local Audi dealer's storage lot. Looked for TDIs. Didn't see any. But it may not be the only place they store cars.

IBW and I have enjoyed staking out opposite turf on this issue! I appreciate his sunny optimism, without sharing it. In fact I hope he's right! But I doubt it...at a 3.0 fix, VW has swung twice and missed. If it was so easy to fix the 3.0 WITHOUT AFFECTING PERFORMANCE/EFFICIENCY, (a) there would have been no reason to cheat in the first place, and (b) they would have rolled it out already.

In contrast to IBW, I think there is a fix but not one that will not affect performance/efficiency. There will likely be no buyback, only compensation to current owners like me whose mileage/performance will drop.

IBW, your turn!

IndigoBlueWagon · Jul 31, 2016

When I wrote Gen 2 I was referring to '12-14 Passats, engine code CKRA. Isn't that Gen 2? Actually Gen 3 (EA288 engines) have a more complex fix. Re-flash now, new sensors and exhaust components in a year. Dealer told me that labor allocation for the second part of the fix is 9 hours. Doesn't sound simple.

I think it would be tough to document and prove a loss in performance or efficiency. Think of the feedback on the 2O36 update for Gen 1 cars. It's all over the map.

scooperhsd · Jul 31, 2016

IndigoBlueWagon said:
When I wrote Gen 2 I was referring to '12-14 Passats, engine code CKRA. Isn't that Gen 2? Actually Gen 3 (EA288 engines) have a more complex fix. Re-flash now, new sensors and exhaust components in a year. Dealer told me that labor allocation for the second part of the fix is 9 hours. Doesn't sound simple.

I think it would be tough to document and prove a loss in performance or efficiency. Think of the feedback on the 2O36 update for Gen 1 cars. It's all over the map.

In that case - I apologize . I was assuming you meant the later cars. I should have known that you are sure what you're talking about.

But 9 hours to add 1 or 2 sensors ? Do they need to add a new wire harness to the ECU as well (at least for those 2 ) ? Sounds like an all-day event... or maybe part of the next day as well.

fredthe · Aug 1, 2016

scooperhsd said:
But 9 hours to add 1 or 2 sensors ? Do they need to add a new wire harness to the ECU as well (at least for those 2 ) ? Sounds like an all-day event... or maybe part of the next day as well.

That's what I'm thinking; can't add a sensor without something to connect it to. This could potentially involve a lot of work, as you might need to replace the complete ECU wiring harness

.

Having said that I've seen very little indication the dealers have any clue at all, so 9 hours may have no basis in reality.

IndigoBlueWagon · Aug 1, 2016

This came from the national dealer meetings two weeks ago. I've head it repeated from more than one US region. So someone may have a clue. We don't know the details of the hardware fix for this car so it's difficult to evaluate the time needed for the repair.

durallymax · Aug 2, 2016

Philth said:
Here...
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-fix-for-tainted-3-liter-audi-porsche-diesels

That article just refers to a "catalyst".

The 3.0 doesn't have a NOx trap(LNT, NOx absorber, etc), unless you consider the SCR catalyst a NOx trap(which I don't because it confuses two separate technologies). The 3.0 has the zeolite coating inside the DPF versus having a separate SCR catalyst. Disadvantage to this can be increased ammonia slip. Which is why they have an additional catalyst downstream to deal with ammonia slip.

That article states there was a "timer" that controlled exhaust temp. The SCR catalyst needs to be heated to reduce ammonia slip, this increases fuel use and noise on many engines though. My guess is that maybe they need to adjust the software and replace the ammonia slip catalyst.

Just a guess with as little info as there is out there, could be very wrong.

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durallymax · Aug 3, 2016

I'd have to do some more reading on that. That statement could mean two things.

1. That the actual DEF tank and possibly the injector are not heated. On most systems these are heated, some don't heat the injector but all of them heat the tank. Not every tank is warmed by engine coolant though, many are electric. I'd have to look at my car a little closer to notice this. One thing I haven't noticed is the familiar sound of the system sucking itself dry after shutdown. Every other SCR piece of equipment we have will perform this and it's quite audible, maybe the Audi is extra quiet.

2. The SCR catalyst was not sufficiently preheated by the engine exhaust. This makes the most sense to me and ties into the info about the "timer". My guess is that the term "AdBlue" may have gotten used/interpreted as a descriptor for the system and not the DEF itself.

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CARB Says "Nope" To 3.0L TDI Fix Proposal

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