Tsi engines

turbobrick240

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Nov 18, 2014
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maine
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2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
They had a good 20 year run. But technology marches forward. The diesel/gasser efficiency gap has basically closed now, with cost of ownership favoring the gasser. I loved my father's old two stroke Saab, but it was a filthy machine and life expectancy would be noticeably reduced if everyone drove one. I think tdi nostalgia will have a similar fate.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
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'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
The diesel/gasser efficiency gap has basically closed now, with cost of ownership favoring the gasser.
I wonder if this is true. I know there's a big gap between gasoline and diesel prices right now, but that tends to fluctuate, with diesel usually costing the same or slightly more than premium unleaded.

I drove my GSW up to Maine and back yesterday. Little bit of traffic, mostly ran with the cruise set at 75 or 78. Temperatures in the teens. I saw 41 on the cluster, which with calibration reads about 1/2 to 1 MPG low. I wonder how a 1.8 TSI would do in the same use. I know people are seeing high 30s in those cars, but I suspect they're the same people who would get 50+ MPG in a TDI because they drive so gently.

I'm attracted to the '19 Golf with the 1.4 TSI and a 6-speed for local daily driving, and using the TDI for longer drives. But i suspect in real world use I'd see low 30s in that car. The GSW does close to 30% better in similar use.
 

jason_

Veteran Member
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Jun 2, 2014
Location
michigan
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2015 s wagon dsg
The economical gap is manipulated.

I was under the impression diesel was less involved in refinery processes, yet it costs more?

If it's actually cheaper before taxes and sur charges, then there's the answer.

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oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
There is no "economy" when this is your 60k PM:



The first cold weather snap, and these start pouring in.... literally, LMAO. Got another one here that chucked its chains, dead on the lot. *Almost* made it to 100k miles. Almost. :eek:
 

Fix_Until_Broke

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Joined
Aug 8, 2004
Location
Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
TDI
03 Jetta, 03 TT TDI
..........
I drove my GSW up to Maine and back yesterday. Little bit of traffic, mostly ran with the cruise set at 75 or 78. Temperatures in the teens. I saw 41 on the cluster, which with calibration reads about 1/2 to 1 MPG low. I wonder how a 1.8 TSI would do in the same use. I know people are seeing high 30s in those cars, but I suspect they're the same people who would get 50+ MPG in a TDI because they drive so gently.
I'm attracted to the '19 Golf with the 1.4 TSI and a 6-speed for local daily driving, and using the TDI for longer drives. But i suspect in real world use I'd see low 30s in that car. The GSW does close to 30% better in similar use.
Girlfriend has a 1.8 TSI Passat and we regularly see 38-40 MPG on a 500 mile round trip with 250 miles at 75-80 and 250 miles at 60. She drives the same car back/forth to school/work and gets mid 20's in the cold winter and right about 30 in the spring/summer/fall. She does not know how to drive for economy. A couple co workers have 1.4 TSI Jetta's one has a ~100 mile highway commute and gets very high 40's and the other has a ~40 mile city commute and he gets mid 30's.

I'd have to agree as stated above that the performance and MPG gap between gas and diesel has more or less closed. Weather the complexity of gasoline direct injection will become a problem - we'll have to see. But I have confidence that a community like this will come up with solutions for them.
 

2.2TDI

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There is no questioning the fact that diesel as a fuel in the economy is being targeted massively... Just look at what is going on in France right now. It's all part of the plot to get rid of diesel.

Yet 10-15 years ago, European governments were flocking to diesels because it was proven they are lower emitters of greenhouse gases then their equivalent petrol counterpart. While that is great, the NOx effects of diesel are substantially worse... At least from the old ones they are based on emission requirements from back then (and the fact diesels were never anywhere within those regs). As much as I hate to admit that, it's the reality. Now which continent actually pollutes more NOx is a different story as there are so many variables to consider, but the data here isn't much in favour of diesels either.

If you want to ignore these facts and live in a fairly tale world, that's your prerogative, but that's the reality of things.

Oilhammer, quit getting such a hard on for diesels and wake up to reality. I understand you see a lot of broken gassers everyday, including a bunch of new vws, but I'm curious to know how much your perception is skewed because of this hardcore affection for diesels. If you worked in Europe, you would see numerous amounts of diesels with problems after problems... Because there are many, many catestropic diesel engines which never had a chance to make it over to North America... I know you're going to ignore what I say and continue with your ways, but that is the reality of the matter

I guess ignorance truly is bliss sometimes

As for fuel economy, my tsi is averaging 29mpg since I bought. Most of that is city driving, but since my commute has changed, I have been averaging around 32-33mpg over the last couple months. Yea it's not 40 plus mpg, but with diesel around 30 cents more per liter then 87, the savings of the diesel would've essentially been negated...i did the math when I bought my tsi and it would've taken me somewhere around 5 years to make my money back if I drove 30000km a year, and I wasn't even doing close to that at the time, but I guess numbers don't matter either when you're a fanatic of something
 
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oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
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outside St Louis, MO
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There are just too many to list....
No, YOUR ignorance is on display here. I NEVER said diesels were superior, and gave some examples of some really, really good VAG gasoline fueled engines. Reread my posts.

If they made a diesel version of this idiotic EA888 engine with a plastic water pump housing buried under the intake, it would be an equal level of craptastic fail. Just so happens they don't. The 1.4L turbo gas engine so far has been pretty decent, too (but they are still young). The EA888 engine has now a decade of proven, repeated, constant, failure. Der Fix has yet ANOTHER article on them this month (as they do almost every month it seems).

This is not a gas vs. diesel thing, never was. I own two great spark ignited Volkswagens. 100% reliable, no issues with their engines, and they have already proven their durability. I also have a spark ignited Ford. :eek: It, too, will outlast ANY EA888 VAG engine.... probably by several orders of magnitude, LMAO.... :D
 

2.2TDI

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No, YOUR ignorance is on display here. I NEVER said diesels were superior, and gave some examples of some really, really good VAG gasoline fueled engines. Reread my posts.
If they made a diesel version of this idiotic EA888 engine with a plastic water pump housing buried under the intake, it would be an equal level of craptastic fail. Just so happens they don't. The 1.4L turbo gas engine so far has been pretty decent, too (but they are still young). The EA888 engine has now a decade of proven, repeated, constant, failure. Der Fix has yet ANOTHER article on them this month (as they do almost every month it seems).
This is not a gas vs. diesel thing, never was. I own two great spark ignited Volkswagens. 100% reliable, no issues with their engines, and they have already proven their durability. I also have a spark ignited Ford. :eek: It, too, will outlast ANY EA888 VAG engine.... probably by several orders of magnitude, LMAO.... :D
Congrats

I am not ignorant at all. I realize that the EA888 has its flaws and that there is a possibility that I may have issues in the future. However, I don't go touting around pounding my chest at how great one engine is and how **** another is and how it's guaranteed that it will fail. Last I checked, the EA888 1.8 TSI won a wards best engine award back a few years ago... I don't how much value I'd place on that, and agree that at the time it was also a new engine, but I imagine it must count for something just a slight bit.

With the way you've been displaying your attitude towards the EA888 engines, amongst other gasser engines around here, it shows off as having quite a biased opinion...

My problem with you oil hammer is the way you exagerate and blow things out of proportion. Instead of saying something like "yea these weren't the greatest engines, they tend to have these issues" you just go ahead and post pictures of broken parts and make it seem as if the engine will blow at an minute.

Anyways, I've made my final points so I'm done here
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
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Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Good, go away. Enjoy your new car. I'll enjoy my old ones.

Oh, the Mustang II and Chevrolet Vega also won awards. :p
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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South of Boston
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'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
oilhammer isn't alone in pointing out issues with EA888 engines. We have a small local shop here that recently had three towed in for chain issues, in a two day period. All had 80-100K miles on them. And one of our team members here used to work at a VW dealer. These engines were notorious for coming in with multiple failures. And this doesn't even include oil consumption issues. One of our customers got rid of his Audi with a version of this engine because he grew tired of adding a liter of oil ever 1,200 miles, which is not enough consumption to merit any attention from VW or Audi.

TDIs aren't bulletproof. They do have issues, but usually they are with external components, often emissions related. Otherwise they're pretty durable.

There are a number of VW/Audi products I find appealing, but this engine's history keeps me away.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
As an aside, anyone know why the '19 Golf 1.4 TSI with an 8-speed auto shows mileage at 24/33, and the Jetta with the same drivetrain shows 30/40? Is this an error?
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
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maine
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2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
As an aside, anyone know why the '19 Golf 1.4 TSI with an 8-speed auto shows mileage at 24/33, and the Jetta with the same drivetrain shows 30/40? Is this an error?
That's interesting and disappointing if true. Seems like an error. Are they both torque converter automatics? I hope a manual is an option. My golf is going back this month and I don't know what I'll replace it with yet. A 1.4 tsi manual golf sounds pretty sweet if those fuel numbers are wrong. I also like the gti, but I'm a bit wary after hearing oilhammers experience with those engines. I might get an old '91-95 civic hatchback as a temporary ride until I can make up my mind on a new/newer car.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
The 1.4 TSI Golf has a 6 speed manual this year. Nice setup. I've driven a '19 Jetta with the same engine/transmission and it's a nice combo. Not exactly TDI torque, but quick enough. And the engine is pretty smooth. I'd have to get used to the rev hanging between shifts, but I guess that's a necessary evil these days.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
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2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
Awesome. A 1.4t manual Golf is likely at the top of my list now. Provided it can do better than 33 mpg highway. :)
 

PB_NB

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
Location
Vancouver, B.C.
TDI
1999 New Beetle
We have an GTI (belt style 2.0 FSI turbo) and it is running great.

My sister traded her Jetta TDI at the buyback and got an 09 Tiguan TSI and the engine has packed it in. I am not to sure what happened but it sounds like the chain skipped and timing jumped. The car is about 6 hours away so I haven't been able to see it first hand.

Seems that VW dropped the belt for the chain technology but it hasn't been the best upgrade for the 2.0 Turbo Gasser.
 

jayb79

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Joined
May 20, 2000
Location
Exeter,NH
I would not be surprised to find out the "failure" is designed into the new generation. VW doesn't make any money on engines that last for 300k miles.
 

Fix_Until_Broke

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 8, 2004
Location
Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
TDI
03 Jetta, 03 TT TDI
Girlfriend has a 1.8 TSI Passat and we regularly see 38-40 MPG on a 500 mile round trip with 250 miles at 75-80 and 250 miles at 60. She drives the same car back/forth to school/work and gets mid 20's in the cold winter and right about 30 in the spring/summer/fall. She does not know how to drive for economy. A couple co workers have 1.4 TSI Jetta's one has a ~100 mile highway commute and gets very high 40's and the other has a ~40 mile city commute and he gets mid 30's [edit = mid 40's /edit].
I'd have to agree as stated above that the performance and MPG gap between gas and diesel has more or less closed. Weather the complexity of gasoline direct injection will become a problem - we'll have to see. But I have confidence that a community like this will come up with solutions for them.
Edited above for accuracy after I asked him again today...
 

danykane007

New member
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Dec 5, 2018
Location
Memphis,TN
TDI
Audi
Those motors have a LOT of issues, regardless of whether they at long last did, in any event, make a few enhancements to the horrible chain drive. I think you'll observe loads of different things to be worried about well before it needs a chain.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
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Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Those motors have a LOT of issues, regardless of whether they at long last did, in any event, make a few enhancements to the horrible chain drive. I think you'll observe loads of different things to be worried about well before it needs a chain.

Exactly. The chain drive, while certainly a looming issue, is a few cars down the Fail Train from the beginning. These things make so many other issues seem absolutely trivial in comparison.

What sucks is, for the most part, the cars these engines are bolted into are decent enough. But a steaming pile of crap under the hood sours the whole package. This engine alone is why I will never, ever, own a Tiguan, despite my wife for some reason wanting one.
 

RabbitGTI

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Joined
Jul 20, 1997
Location
Wisconsin
TDI
B4 Passat Sedan
How about the EA113 CRZA which has a belt and the new 1.4t which I also believe has a belt?
My wife wants a Tiguan too :D and I want a Golf R. Maybe we'll make that a MK6 R and a new Jetta.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
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Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Fortunately for me, the wife's 2004 Passat is kept in good order, and still looks and drives like new. I would argue it is in some ways better than a lot of newer stuff too.

Besides, if she wants to sit up high, she can drive the Sprinter. It uses about the same amount of fuel as a Tiguan anyway. :D
 

jason_

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2014
Location
michigan
TDI
2015 s wagon dsg
Would a deleted and tuned Cr with proper coded ecu be possible?

Tiguan platform

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oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
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Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
There are already a couple of CR swapped Tiggies running around in the states, so yes, it is possible. Obviously they sold these with TDIs everywhere else (in Europe I would venture to say MOST were TDIs). The first generation Tiguan is essentially just a 5th gen Golf platform underneath, nothing unique really.
 

Hwycruiser

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TX
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You guys are going to cause me to buy a Toyota next. I had a 2013 Passat TDI and sweated the possibilty of being hit with a HPFP failure. So I turned that in and got a 2017 Passat TSI with an engine that I had heard was recognized as “Ward’s Ten Best Engines”. I also have a 2015 1.8 TSI Jetta and both have been trouble free to date. Your comments make me want to get rid of them now or buy an extended powertrain warranty while I still can. BTW the lifetime fuel mileage difference of the TDI vs. TSI of my Passats, that I have documented by manually recording every fill up, averages out to 6 mpg in favor of TDI. Considering that diesel is now costing about 60-70 cents more per gallon nowadays in my area, its hard to justify a diesel based upon mpg anymore.
 

KITEWAGON

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2014 Touareg Exec, 2014 JSW
We have an GTI (belt style 2.0 FSI turbo) and it is running great.

My sister traded her Jetta TDI at the buyback and got an 09 Tiguan TSI and the engine has packed it in. I am not to sure what happened but it sounds like the chain skipped and timing jumped. The car is about 6 hours away so I haven't been able to see it first hand.

Seems that VW dropped the belt for the chain technology but it hasn't been the best upgrade for the 2.0 Turbo Gasser.

They have bad tensioners. I think there is an extended warranty on the 2.0 engines to 120k miles on the tensioner and it may cover the engine damage.


I sold my GTI in part because I just didn't trust the engine. It felt like to many issues with the tensioner, intake issues, junky water pumps. Every time I pushed the start button I wondered if it would grenade. But it was an awfully fun engine to wind up and it put out an awful lot of torque and HP for a little engine (with predictably crappy mileage on premium fuel).
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Yep, the rando-fail is what has this 2010 CC abandoned here. Owner went to start it, and without warning the chain drive came apart and now the engine has no compression because all the intake valves are bent.

And this is a car that has already had:

one water pump under warranty

another water pump by me

crankcase pressure regulator failure, which of course blew out the rear main seal

intake manifold failure, replaced under extended warranty

And now it essentially needs an engine, because the cost of the chain crap and a valve job is very expensive, and the engine already was burning 2-3 liters of oil between services. All before 100k miles.

Sad, because the car is otherwise perfect. Clean, straight, 3 pedals even. But it'll likely get junked all because of this junk engine.

Can't buy used ones, because we cannot warranty them. Salvage yards know how crappy they are, so they get a premium for used ones AND will give no warranty beyond another replacement, and that is only for 30 days. No labor.

Anymore, when someone calls about getting one of these towed in, we prep them beforehand. Otherwise we'd have them piled up here (we have two dead ones here now, this CC and a Q5).
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Aug 16, 2004
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South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
Interesting problem. Engine fails and there's no good replacement. I guess the customer could spend all the money and have the one in the car rebuilt, only to wonder if it'll last another 100K miles.
 

RabbitGTI

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Joined
Jul 20, 1997
Location
Wisconsin
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B4 Passat Sedan
MK 6 R has a timing belt and normal water pump (or so it appears). So with that engine, is the only real PIA failure the rear seal? Other stuff would seem to be non-fatal and not that much work. That would assume the cam chain is prone to throwing a code before it grenades and it could be changed early. Is this summary pretty much true?
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
MK 6 R has a timing belt and normal water pump (or so it appears). So with that engine, is the only real PIA failure the rear seal? Other stuff would seem to be non-fatal and not that much work. That would assume the cam chain is prone to throwing a code before it grenades and it could be changed early. Is this summary pretty much true?

Yes and no.

The belt driven 2.0L turbo gas engines continued on after 2008 in certain models for a few years, the Audi A4, the Golf R, the Audi TT. These are akin to the BPY engine like the 2006/07/early '08 GTI/GLI/Eos/B6 Passat got. Those engines were largely still based on the "old" belt driven engines like the ALH/AEG/AWM/BEW/BRM/AZG/AVH/BEV/AWP, etc. The BPY etc. engines' early on had issues with the cam follower driving the HPFP wearing through, look similar to the PD cam/lifter wear, and like the PDs, made much, much worse by use of improper oil. However UNlike the PDs (or any of the VAG TDIs), oil consumption compounded this, something many VAG gas engines have had issues with. They did issue a revised camshaft and follower for these, which would have been factory installed on any of the belt driven 2.0L DI turbo engines after about 2008 (so all the belt driven Rs). And really, with those, so long as you use the proper 5w40 502.00 spec oil, good oil filters, and keep it full, they are pretty robust engines. They also do not seem to have nearly as bad of an intake port gunking as the later DI engines for some reason. These use the same aluminum water pump inside the front of the block, driven by the timing belt, design as the other similar engines, a normal design rear main seal, etc. They had some sensor updates as well, mainly rail pressure sensors, as well as some lambda sensor issues.

The EA888 engines (the chain driven ones) can sometimes have plenty of timing chain warnings on the early ones, as the tensioners bleed down (there is a TSB for this, and an updated tensioner). However the later ones (2010+) already have the newer style tensioner, and they can quite often come apart at cold start with absolutely no warning prior whatsoever. None. Some will exhibit CKP/CMP correlation DTCs and some noise shortly before, and those can be saved albeit it is still an expensive and labor intensive job. The timing chain design on these is unique, and by far one of the dumbest I have ever seen (and I have worked on chain driven OHCs on engines from Ford, GM, Toyota, Honda, Chrysler, Nissan, MB, BMW, and others). The crank sprocket does not index on to the crank with a conventional keyway or "D" shape, but instead uses this strange star gear thing that is difficult to describe. And it is not just one chain. There are three. One to run the camshafts, one to run the balance shafts, and one to run the oil pump. When you take the front pulley loose, the front sprocket has nothing to hold it tight to the crank, because it relies on the pulley for that. So it can jump off if you are not careful. It isn't like you can just expose the front of the engine and have the whole chain drive in front of you. There is an upper and lower cover. The mount is in the way on transverse applications, and the cam chain runs THROUGH the head. This is why it is an 8-hour job, even though it is done with the engine in the car (unlike the VR6 and I-5 engines that require transmission/engine separation) .
 

turbobrick240

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maine
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2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
I have heard that the ea888 timing chain/tensioner problem can be monitored by periodically checking block 208 & 209 with vcds. Normal reading would be about -2 KW. When the figure approaches -10 KW the chain is getting loose. A fault code is set at -14 KW I believe.
 
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