Call Goes Out for Speed Limits on Autobahn

RogueTDI · Jul 12, 2004

It's inevitable. With the added congestion and attitude changes as well as increased in-car distractions, I'm surprised it hasn't come about sooner. Believe me, I'd hate to see it happen, but if they're suffering the same increased lack of consideration and education as we have here, it'll most likely happen. Flash you're lights at some poke in the left lane here now, at best you'll get the finger. At worst, a ticket for "aggressive driving"!

I'd say the problem is the huge influx of uneducated and low-class easterners, many of whom can't even speak German.

Anyway, they already have variable speed limits (computerized signage systems) for areas with heavy traffic, and this has worked well. An outright limit on ALL of the Autobahn is NOT needed.

RogueTDI · Jul 12, 2004

jackbombay,

Your not thinking like a German. Yes the lady was out in the passing lane (and should probably have been back in the right hand lane) it is the responsibility of the 'other driver' to ensure that he/she is being safe. Remember this is a Socialist society here, when you use your turning signal, its to inform others of your intent, and doesnt give you the right to put THEM in an unsafe situation. Another example of this is the law that pertains to bicycle's - if you hit a person (while they are on foot) while riding your bicycle, its YOUR fault, and you have a chance of loosing your DL. Bottom line is, yes you can have the 'autobahn' and cars that will do unlimited speeds, but it doesnt give you the RIGHT to put others at risk.

Just my $.02

What the heck are you talking about?

RogueTDI · Jul 12, 2004

People will still get from here to there quickly enough, they'll still buy fast cars, and they'll be a bit safer overall. There will always be small airports and racetracks rented for public use where you can more safely redline, and if you say that it's not the same if you're not passing people..putting them at risk..then that's rather selfish.

Of course all that said I typically take a 70 mph stretch of open highway at 90 mph because the rush is good and it's more convenient than paying for time at a speedway. But I would drive about the same speed if the limit were 100 mph because that's the speed I feel safe at. The thing that makes it seem most unsafe to me is I'm checking my mirrors for cops every mile or two and if I see one I slow down quicker than I'd like to.

In the US there will be less accidents when the speed limit is lower because the level of training for getting your license isn't adequate. I didn't get collision avoidance and high speed training until I went to a company outing at the speedway. That should be mandatory, as should a driving age of 18. But the second big reason for speed laws out here is to make money, those tickets probably make the state millions and lawmakers will never say it, but you know they're thinking it.

Youre wrong. The ONLY reason for highway speed limits is for making money off of enforcement. They arent about safety - that is simply the malarky that has been foisted on the public for generations. Sure, youre more likely to be injured/killed at higher speeds IF you crash, but crashes are not inherently more likely because of speed. Simple rules that promote courteous driving practices, like drive right, are all that are needed. Speed, in itself, is NOT a significant problem. Studies have proven it. Raising the limit from 55 to 65mph in this country actually resulted in LOWER accident rates. The Montana studies are a good example. And OF COURSE, the Autobahn has a lower per capita/mile/etc accident/death rate than the US interstate system.

RogueTDI · Jul 12, 2004

I just wish areas of the US had a higher speed limit. Across the middle US - limits should be raised. Isn't that the point of a "free"way? Get their fast?

Click to expand...

Are you freaking kidding!?!? Here in the States?!?!? Where driver's licenses are almost like birthrights!?!?!? No way should we be going any faster than we're going. I'd love to personally, and have proven myself able to handle it (a few contralegal jaunts on the rural byways), but we don't have, by and large, as good a group of drivers as in any one European country.

People here just don't know how to drive! (And I'm 100% red-blooded American...this is no outsider making a comment like this.)

Mike

Youre right - there are a lot of horrible drivers in this country, like especially all the ones that think highway speed limits are a great and necessary thing. *cough cough*

Frank M · Jul 12, 2004

Youre wrong. The ONLY reason for highway speed limits is for making money off of enforcement.

I wish they would enforce the speed limits, then our taxes will go down...

There certainly plenty of speeders here that will pay.
The average speed in the passing lane here is 80 in a 65mph zone.

PlaneCrazy · Jul 12, 2004

Two words folks: "Aging population".

Sorry, but reflexes at 70 just aren't what they are at 20. And whether we like it or not the two are going to mix in N. America.

In fact in N. America driving is becoming a volatile mix of the agressive and thoughtless "me" generation; immigrants who learned to drive late in life (and probably never properly; the average N. American kid probably first learns to drive the John Deere garden tractor at age 12 so has it pretty much figured out by 16; this is not the case in many parts of the world where driving is the province of the privileged); elderly drivers who are challenged at 45 mph, never mind 75 mph; drivers more concentrated on cutting a deal on their cell phone than driving; and the usual mix of idiots numb from the neck up.

Sorry folks, but with this kind of mix, plus uneven driver training standards, even 75 mph is stretching it in some places.

And I'm pretty sure that many of the same demographic pressures will hit Europe too. Hopefully though their politicians won't have their heads firmly up their you-know-what's, and will take sensible steps like banning cell phone use while driving, rigourous driver licensing standards, and decent, safe public transport so that the elderly can retain mobility without being a menace on the roads.

Meanwhile, over here, sit back, hit the cruise button, enjoy the scenery, and the 50 mpg!

cevans · Jul 12, 2004

Youre wrong. The ONLY reason for highway speed limits is for making money off of enforcement... youre more likely to be injured/killed at higher speeds IF you crash, but crashes are not inherently more likely because of speed... Studies have proven it. Raising the limit from 55 to 65mph in this country actually resulted in LOWER accident rates. The Montana studies are a good example...

I think this is a little niave...
1) crashes ARE more likely because of speed, you have less reaction time, MUCH less, and your car isn't nearly as agile. So, you have less time to respond and less ability to repond with. This lowers the envelope of safety dramatically. Don't get me wrong, I really believe many rural areas should raise their speed limit considerably, but making a blanket statement such as that really isn't correct...

2) I think that your experiences regarding the Montana studies allowed you to make the assumption that this is the case everywhere, but, it isn't. In New Jersey, raising the speed limit to 65 did cause the accident rate to go up, not by much, but enough to get some attention...(speed limiting on NASCAR on the other hand DOES cause more crashes...)

3) Driving safely on the Autobahn is almost a cultural cornerstone of Germany. On top of that, penalties for other unsafe driving practices, even a ticket for being unkind, are HUGE. Doing stupid things and being caught is just too large of a risk to take, thus, stupid things don't happen as much...

rotarykid · Jul 12, 2004

I just wish areas of the US had a higher speed limit. Across the middle US - limits should be raised. Isn't that the point of a "free"way? Get their fast?

Click to expand...

Are you freaking kidding!?!? Here in the States?!?!? Where driver's licenses are almost like birthrights!?!?!? No way should we be going any faster than we're going. I'd love to personally, and have proven myself able to handle it (a few contralegal jaunts on the rural byways), but we don't have, by and large, as good a group of drivers as in any one European country.

People here just don't know how to drive! (And I'm 100% red-blooded American...this is no outsider making a comment like this.)

Mike

In the US west 100 mph is safe and I might add not an uncommon speed on rual interstates . ( In 75 mph zones ) Which is the max speed limit currently in the US , Montana included now .

I did drive in Montana a few times before the 75 speed limit was put in . 1999 I think was the year . And coming out of Wyoming runing in the low 80's mph in Montana where we all increased as a group to 90 + mph was a great feeling . And what a feeling it was . 8 hours + at speeds above 90 mph showed me that it could be driven safely here on our highway system . The best thing was going that fast without the worry of a ticket . In many of the western states 85 to 90 mph can be touched but not cruised at like you could in Montana in the day before the speed limit was imposed .

And everyone must remember that at speeds above 70 mph all attention must be on the road . Not on the radio , or food or a cell phone . And the faster you go the further you must be looking down the road . This a must for high speeds on a highway of any type .

In the west most stretches on controlled access highways have a design speed of at least 85 mph . And many stretches are in the 100 mph safety range .

And driving is a privilage , not a right . And if you have that privilage the driving training should reflect that . This training should also include tire preasure & wear inspection skills .

Lane blocking "Slower Traffic Keep Right" is the law in all 50 states in some sort of form , but rarely ever inforced . This needs to change . This one thing would make high speed roads much safer .

And lastly , yearly safety inspections in all states would make high speed driving much more of an option here . Tires tend to explode at very high speeds if they have low air pressure or excess wear .

If these things are addressed then stretches with suggested speed limits could be a real option here .

SwimmerDave · Jul 12, 2004

I just wish areas of the US had a higher speed limit. Across the middle US - limits should be raised. Isn't that the point of a "free"way? Get their fast?

Click to expand...

Are you freaking kidding!?!? Here in the States?!?!? Where driver's licenses are almost like birthrights!?!?!? No way should we be going any faster than we're going. I'd love to personally, and have proven myself able to handle it (a few contralegal jaunts on the rural byways), but we don't have, by and large, as good a group of drivers as in any one European country.

People here just don't know how to drive! (And I'm 100% red-blooded American...this is no outsider making a comment like this.)

Mike

Click to expand...

lil off the subject of autobahn but...

"Where driver's licenses are almost like birthrights!?!?!?"

that what the government wants. according to the provision of the usa patriot act, one can be detained (not arrested) by law enforcement for NOT having a drivers license even as a pedistrian. the detention can last as long as needed to verify your identity.

Remove the tinfoil hat, please. You can get a state identity card that functions exactly like a driver's license for ID purposes without having to have a driver's license.

Government does do some pretty stupid stuff, but requiring a driver's license is not one of them.

boerssd · Jul 12, 2004

Does speed in and of itself kill? No - not exactly. But it sure makes those inevitable close encounters, just a bit more dicey. Try walking into a wall, bump. Now back up and take a run at it. Kinda hurts doesn't it? While you running didn't exactly cause the "accident", I'm pretty sure it made the experience more "memorable".

Most of our roads combined with our more advanced vehicles are safely capapble of accomodating speeds well in excess of the posted speed limit. But that does not make travelling that speed safe. The reall issue is one of speed differentials and as everyone has stated, rather lower standards on driver training.

50 cars driving at 160kph with at least semi-competent drivers is not a big deal.

Now make that 10 cars driving around 80kph with either newish drivers, older drivers, or people just not that comfy on the hightway. Throw in 30 cars driving at or near the speed limit (95-115kph). Now toss in 10 hotshots driving around 150kph. This is reality, and this can get messy.

Sorry - but I'm an advocate of speed limits. In the absence of better ways to level the playing field, we need to limit the speeds to a lower common denominator that people can handle.

Sean.

Cincy_Mike · Jul 12, 2004

Speed limits of 90mph would really increase our use of oil as well as pollution. The latter being the bigger problem in the states. I guess having higher speed limits outside of big cities where pollution is less would still make sense with respect to pollution as well as safety.

VDubVerruckt · Jul 12, 2004

It's my understanding that flashing your lights as you approach a slower car from behind is illegal. I know that you can get a fine for flipping someone off on the Autobahn. The thing I like about Germany is that they actually ENFORCE their traffic laws. Maybe not completely, but it puts traffic enforcement to shame here in the US. Anyone owning a car in Germany has to have it inspected. If it doesn't pass inspection, it's not allowed on the road. Most of the cars you see on the roads here in the US wouldn't be allowed to touch pavement in Germany.

One of the most frustrating things I see every day is that people don't keep to the right. Everyone thinks they're going faster than everyone else and they can stay in the fast lane. This does nothing but annoy people, induce road rage and spawn further lack in interest in obeying the rules of the road. There's a freeway here where the speed limit is posted at 55 mph. The average speed on this freeway is 70 mph. The local law enforcement started the "Shadow Patrol" program where they have an officer in a non-police vehicle with a calibrated speedo. They drive up and down this stretch of freeway and pace various cars, radio ahead with the description and let a marked squad do the rest. This program has be active for a little over a year. There was lots of new coverage on the radio and TV about it. Since the start of the program, the average speed on the freeway went down. A whopping 1 mph.

People are going to do what they want despite the penalties. I believe higher speed limits would be okay, but not practical given the amount of apathetic and idiotic drivers on the road. Cars have gotten safer, but the roads and highways have not.

Sorry about the rant.

NewJettaGuy · Jul 12, 2004

Snip .... There were times I could safely drive at 120mph to 150mph, a few times to 170mph, ... Snip
It was a thill I will never forget. It will be a sad day when they put a speed limit on the last unlimited stretch of autobahn.

I totally agree that it will indeed be a sad day if limits are put on all Autobahn roads...

I still recall the exhilaration of driving from Bremerhaven to Heidelberg (approximately 360 miles) in less than three hours in my BMW Bavaria (equivilent to a 5 or 7 Series Bimmer today)....What a rush...

Trivia:

Most frequently used accessory in a car on the Autobahn: High beams

Most frequently used accessory in a car in Old San Juan, PR: The Horn

SilverBullet · Jul 12, 2004

Well,

complain as you will, I think either way it goes it's just semantics. Last time I drove on the autobahn it was more destaut than it was flowing. I think I drove faster (on average) in Spain by far.

nephilim · Jul 12, 2004

Isnt it more the other things that people are doing when they drive thats the reason for most collisions (they are not accidents, someone f**ked up).

#1 cause - people eating in their car cause 70% of all collisions (still looking for the link I was at the other day)

only about 5% were from cell phones, yet no one is talking about making it illegal to eat in the car.

Its the attitude of drivers that the car is a place to eat, talk, catch up on some reading, etc instead of looking at what your doing and getting somewhere alive. Its not the speed, its the drivers.

But thats only my $.02

Papi · Jul 12, 2004

Speed limits are a great idea, but I would go further ...

1. Drop the speed limit to 100 kph
2. Install automatic photo-radar cameras every 10km.
3. Collect money from all speed violations.
4. Use this money to pay for roads & drop everyone's taxes.

Benefits?

1. Relaxing drive and you can snooze on the straight stretches.
2. Forces drivers to drive at more fuel efficient speeds. This gives three added benefits: (a) reduced greenhouse gas volumes (b) conservation of limited oil reserves (so we can drive our hydrocarbon cars longer) (c) more money in your pocket (you buy less fuel & lower fuel demand lower's prices)
3. If you decided to drive at speed limits, you won't pay fines and you'll cough up less for taxes!
4. You get more people working (installing and servicing millions of photo-radar cameras) - so much for unemployment problems!

RogueTDI · Jul 12, 2004

Youre wrong. The ONLY reason for highway speed limits is for making money off of enforcement... youre more likely to be injured/killed at higher speeds IF you crash, but crashes are not inherently more likely because of speed... Studies have proven it. Raising the limit from 55 to 65mph in this country actually resulted in LOWER accident rates. The Montana studies are a good example...

Click to expand...

I think this is a little niave...
1) crashes ARE more likely because of speed, you have less reaction time, MUCH less, and your car isn't nearly as agile. So, you have less time to respond and less ability to repond with. This lowers the envelope of safety dramatically. Don't get me wrong, I really believe many rural areas should raise their speed limit considerably, but making a blanket statement such as that really isn't correct...

2) I think that your experiences regarding the Montana studies allowed you to make the assumption that this is the case everywhere, but, it isn't. In New Jersey, raising the speed limit to 65 did cause the accident rate to go up, not by much, but enough to get some attention...(speed limiting on NASCAR on the other hand DOES cause more crashes...)

3) Driving safely on the Autobahn is almost a cultural cornerstone of Germany. On top of that, penalties for other unsafe driving practices, even a ticket for being unkind, are HUGE. Doing stupid things and being caught is just too large of a risk to take, thus, stupid things don't happen as much...

I think your statements are naive. You must be assuming that all else would stay the same, and speeds simply increase. That is not what I am suggesting.

Driving fast can be as safe as driving slow, with the appropriate change in attitude and driving practices. Crashes are only more likely at speed for drivers that have no clue how a car's behavior changes with increasing speed. For even just a knowledgable driver, let alone a skilled one, driving fast in itself is no more likely to cause accidents than driving less fast. Now, under certain driving conditions (mainly heavy traffic), fast speeds are of course more dangerous than slower speeds, but it's not simply a matter of reaction times. The German Autobahn has a system of reducing speeds on busy sections of roadway during heavy traffic. So anyway, the real blanket statement is to say that speed limits are actually a necessary defense against higher accident rates.

And I think the Montana and much of the other 55-to-65 data showing LOWER accident rates GROSSLY outweighs a slight increase in New Jersey accidents.

And yes, Germans are much more serious about driving, and it would require more seriousness and a better driver education process for Americans to drive without highway speed limits. But that has nothing to do with the inherent relationship of speed to accident rates.

RogueTDI · Jul 12, 2004

I just wish areas of the US had a higher speed limit. Across the middle US - limits should be raised. Isn't that the point of a "free"way? Get their fast?

Click to expand...

Are you freaking kidding!?!? Here in the States?!?!? Where driver's licenses are almost like birthrights!?!?!? No way should we be going any faster than we're going. I'd love to personally, and have proven myself able to handle it (a few contralegal jaunts on the rural byways), but we don't have, by and large, as good a group of drivers as in any one European country.

People here just don't know how to drive! (And I'm 100% red-blooded American...this is no outsider making a comment like this.)

Mike

Click to expand...

In the US west 100 mph is safe and I might add not an uncommon speed on rual interstates . ( In 75 mph zones ) Which is the max speed limit currently in the US , Montana included now .

I did drive in Montana a few times before the 75 speed limit was put in . 1999 I think was the year . And coming out of Wyoming runing in the low 80's mph in Montana where we all increased as a group to 90 + mph was a great feeling . And what a feeling it was . 8 hours + at speeds above 90 mph showed me that it could be driven safely here on our highway system . The best thing was going that fast without the worry of a ticket . In many of the western states 85 to 90 mph can be touched but not cruised at like you could in Montana in the day before the speed limit was imposed .

And everyone must remember that at speeds above 70 mph all attention must be on the road . Not on the radio , or food or a cell phone . And the faster you go the further you must be looking down the road . This a must for high speeds on a highway of any type .

In the west most stretches on controlled access highways have a design speed of at least 85 mph . And many stretches are in the 100 mph safety range .

And driving is a privilage , not a right . And if you have that privilage the driving training should reflect that . This training should also include tire preasure & wear inspection skills .

Lane blocking "Slower Traffic Keep Right" is the law in all 50 states in some sort of form , but rarely ever inforced . This needs to change . This one thing would make high speed roads much safer .

And lastly , yearly safety inspections in all states would make high speed driving much more of an option here . Tires tend to explode at very high speeds if they have low air pressure or excess wear .

If these things are addressed then stretches with suggested speed limits could be a real option here .

Excellent points.

RogueTDI · Jul 12, 2004

Speed limits of 90mph would really increase our use of oil as well as pollution. The latter being the bigger problem in the states. I guess having higher speed limits outside of big cities where pollution is less would still make sense with respect to pollution as well as safety.

Well, not really. Typical misconception, and one of the flaws in the arguments made by the pro-speed-limit German politicians.

Even with a higher speed limit, most drivers would probably just drive the comfortable speed of their preference. They already do this - 75-85mph is common on many of the freeways in So Cal, and primarily because that is what the vehicles (and thus their drivers) are comfortable at. Even little econo-boxes can comfotably do 75mph these days.

As for using more oil and increasing pollution - just driving an SUV at 75-80mph consumes about as much fuel and makes as much pollution as a car moving at 90-95+mph. Not to mention, the risk they pose to other vehicles and stationary objects is about the same.

RogueTDI · Jul 12, 2004

Speed limits are a great idea, but I would go further ...

1. Drop the speed limit to 100 kph
2. Install automatic photo-radar cameras every 10km.
3. Collect money from all speed violations.
4. Use this money to pay for roads & drop everyone's taxes.

Benefits?

1. Relaxing drive and you can snooze on the straight stretches.
2. Forces drivers to drive at more fuel efficient speeds. This gives three added benefits: (a) reduced greenhouse gas volumes (b) conservation of limited oil reserves (so we can drive our hydrocarbon cars longer) (c) more money in your pocket (you buy less fuel & lower fuel demand lower's prices)
3. If you decided to drive at speed limits, you won't pay fines and you'll cough up less for taxes!
4. You get more people working (installing and servicing millions of photo-radar cameras) - so much for unemployment problems!

Oh Puhleaase! You MUST be joking.

Here's a better idea - abolish the car industry entirely. Just think of the benefits! Reduce transportation oil consumption to ZERO. We can make new jobs and increase public health by mandating bicycle transportation for all!

cevans · Jul 12, 2004

Rougue,

Its so much more than traffic and state of mind. What about debris? A piece of rubber from a retread hitting you at 60mph might not make a difference, but at 100 mph, it could cause major touble. Lets say you react to it, at 60 mph you swerve, at 100mph you skid off the road. Our highways are not nearly safe enough for fast speed except for extremly flat, rural areas...

I agree with the main idea that higher speeds can be driven safely, but not here, not in urban environments...

RogueTDI · Jul 12, 2004

Rougue,

Its so much more than traffic and state of mind. What about debris? A piece of rubber from a retread hitting you at 60mph might not make a difference, but at 100 mph, it could cause major touble. Lets say you react to it, at 60 mph you swerve, at 100mph you skid off the road. Our highways are not nearly safe enough for fast speed except for extremly flat, rural areas...

I agree with the main idea that higher speeds can be driven safely, but not here, not in urban environments...

You could easily skid off the road at 60mph also. Its a matter of knowing the limits of the car, pure and simple.

And if traffic/road conditions don't allow you to see and safely avoid potential debris (and other) hazards, then the vehicle speed should be adjusted accordingly. Simple.

Proponents of highway speed limits WISH they could be a substitute for personal responsibility and proper driving practices (and training), a panacea for the dangers and complexities of driving. But they can never be that, regardless of the speed limit, and personal driver responsibility is ALWAYS a necessity. Highway speed limits generally only serve to unecessarily extend trip times. They also make a great revenue system for city coffers. The thinking is just as ludicrous as other non-sense laws, like cell phone bans.

Oh, and yes, in city/urban areas, conditions can be complex and beyond the ability of the driver to predict. Schools zones, etc., really do need regulated speed, I fully agree.

shalwechat · Jul 12, 2004

I just wish areas of the US had a higher speed limit. Across the middle US - limits should be raised. Isn't that the point of a "free"way? Get their fast?

Click to expand...

Are you freaking kidding!?!? Here in the States?!?!? Where driver's licenses are almost like birthrights!?!?!? No way should we be going any faster than we're going. I'd love to personally, and have proven myself able to handle it (a few contralegal jaunts on the rural byways), but we don't have, by and large, as good a group of drivers as in any one European country.

People here just don't know how to drive! (And I'm 100% red-blooded American...this is no outsider making a comment like this.)

Mike

Click to expand...

lil off the subject of autobahn but...

"Where driver's licenses are almost like birthrights!?!?!?"

that what the government wants. according to the provision of the usa patriot act, one can be detained (not arrested) by law enforcement for NOT having a drivers license even as a pedistrian. the detention can last as long as needed to verify your identity.

Click to expand...

Remove the tinfoil hat, please. You can get a state identity card that functions exactly like a driver's license for ID purposes without having to have a driver's license.

Government does do some pretty stupid stuff, but requiring a driver's license is not one of them.

same thing: dl and state(national)id card. one give you the privelage to drive and the other does not...if you dont drive, why do you need a state(national)id card or a dl? so why can you be arrested (detained) for not having a state id card? not to mention that a majority of states sell dl/ state(national) id card info to marketers.

http://schram.net/articles/barcode.html

Mike_M · Jul 12, 2004

Youre right - there are a lot of horrible drivers in this country, like especially all the ones that think highway speed limits are a great and necessary thing. *cough cough*

In Germany, that may very well be the truth. But Germany has something called "driver training". I don't pretend to know firsthand, but listening to friends of mine from Germany (born ~WW2), hearing what you have to go through to get a driver's license there, I think it would weed out those not serious about driving properly here. Lots of money and time involved...not something casual drivers would want to part with.

Here, you're given a sloppy high school class (sometimes), and a learner's permit, then 6 months later *poof*...one test and you have your license. Hell, here in Arizona, you get it once, then it expires when you turn 65. No tests, no renewals, nothing. Just "here, you can drive for 45-49 years and we'll never check up on you".

With that kind of training, do you really think the drivers here in the USA could handle Autobahn-like speeds? Even "baby Autobahn" speeds like 100mph? I think not.

Mike

Mike_M · Jul 12, 2004

In the US west 100 mph is safe and I might add not an uncommon speed on rual interstates . ( In 75 mph zones ) Which is the max speed limit currently in the US , Montana included now.

I'm glad people know how to drive in Montana...they certainly don't here in Arizona, or in California, New Mexico, Texas, Mississippi, Illinois, or several other states I've driven in extensively.

I did drive in Montana a few times before the 75 speed limit was put in . 1999 I think was the year . And coming out of Wyoming runing in the low 80's mph in Montana where we all increased as a group to 90 + mph was a great feeling . And what a feeling it was . 8 hours + at speeds above 90 mph showed me that it could be driven safely here on our highway system . The best thing was going that fast without the worry of a ticket . In many of the western states 85 to 90 mph can be touched but not cruised at like you could in Montana in the day before the speed limit was imposed.

And what's in Montana? NOTHING. Places with actual cities, terrain, and traffic are quite a bit different.

And everyone must remember that at speeds above 70 mph all attention must be on the road . Not on the radio , or food or a cell phone . And the faster you go the further you must be looking down the road . This a must for high speeds on a highway of any type .

People don't and won't remember that, and will continue yapping on phones, eating 6-foot subs, bikini-waxing their dogs, taking power naps, repainting model airplanes, and doing many other irritating things while driving. Some people do it because they're stupid, and some do it because they know it irritates other people.

In the west most stretches on controlled access highways have a design speed of at least 85 mph . And many stretches are in the 100 mph safety range .

Even on the straight, flat, smoothly paved and well-designed stretch between here and Tucson, on the few occasions when it's deserted, very few stretches feel anything resembling safe at 100mph. I know...I've driven it. Same with I-10, I-8, and especially I-17 up to Flagstaff. (That bit about I-10 and I-8 applies to California too.)

And driving is a privilage , not a right . And if you have that privilage the driving training should reflect that . This training should also include tire preasure & wear inspection skills .

Amen! But try telling that to state governments. They keep making it easier to get a license.

Lane blocking "Slower Traffic Keep Right" is the law in all 50 states in some sort of form , but rarely ever inforced . This needs to change . This one thing would make high speed roads much safer .

And lastly , yearly safety inspections in all states would make high speed driving much more of an option here . Tires tend to explode at very high speeds if they have low air pressure or excess wear .

Yes, law enforcement actually doing their jobs as regards vehicles would be nice. But with so many other (and more serious crimes) to deal with, and with so few resources (in many areas), they just don't have the manpower to pull it off.

That said, there also seems to be a lack of effort in the cases where there is manpower available.

If these things are addressed then stretches with suggested speed limits could be a real option here .

So, in other words, if we become Germany overnight.

Not gonna happen.

Mike

VDubVerruckt · Jul 13, 2004

My wife is from Germany and she went through several months of driver training in a BMW. The stuff she learned made everything I learned in high school Driver's Ed seem like a joke. It's too easy to get a license here and everyone seems to think it's their right to have one. I don't know what it cost for me or today's high school student to take driver's education, but I know it didn't cost the $1,500+ that had to come out of my wife's pocket to earn the privilege to drive.

I've driven on the Autobahn many times and I can honestly say that I feel safer driving at high speeds on the Autobahn than I do driving slower speeds on our highways and interstates.

tadc · Jul 13, 2004

I've driven on the Autobahn many times and I can honestly say that I feel safer driving at high speeds on the Autobahn than I do driving slower speeds on our highways and interstates.

Ditto. 100 MPH over there "feels" like 60 MPH over here, simply due to the better design standards of the road.

One point that some people seem to be missing with their comments about slower speeds needed in congestion and traffic... the Autobahn DOES have speed limits everywhere that such congestion is likely to occur. Every interchange, significant curve or hill, construction zone or urban area has a speed limit, usually 140kph but some urban areas have variable limits as low as 80 kph.

Another thing I noticed while driving in Germany is that there seems to be little speed enforcement. I've heard that they use speed cameras, but I never saw one, and I've criss-crossed the country several times between Hamburg, Berlin, Munich and the Dutch border. Even in speed-regulated areas, the local drivers seemed to pay little attention to the posted limit and basically drove whatever speed they pleased. Most "Polizei" vehicles I saw were slow-ass VW Vanagon style vans, which probably couldn't catch most of the vehicles on the road. And I never saw anyone "pulled over".

RogueTDI · Jul 13, 2004

I've driven on the Autobahn many times and I can honestly say that I feel safer driving at high speeds on the Autobahn than I do driving slower speeds on our highways and interstates.

Exactly. I feel (felt) the same. Driver training for driving practices and edicate on the road has the incredibly important result of creating ORDER on the roads there, versus the literal chaos and unpredictable nature of driving on freeways here in the USA. This predictability is an INCREDIBLY major and dominant aspect of safety - something our highways comlpetely lack, and something 95% of American drivers are either ignorant of (most likely) or choose to ignore.

RogueTDI · Jul 13, 2004

...

Another thing I noticed while driving in Germany is that there seems to be little speed enforcement. I've heard that they use speed cameras, but I never saw one, and I've criss-crossed the country several times between Hamburg, Berlin, Munich and the Dutch border. Even in speed-regulated areas, the local drivers seemed to pay little attention to the posted limit and basically drove whatever speed they pleased. Most "Polizei" vehicles I saw were slow-ass VW Vanagon style vans, which probably couldn't catch most of the vehicles on the road. And I never saw anyone "pulled over".

The Polizei supposedly run around in unmarked cars (probably usually Mercedes) and catch unwitting fools doing the wrong things in the wrong place at the wrong time. At least, that is the way their news portrays it - I guess the "big brother" aspect is a pretty good deterent: the people I stayed with in Germany a few months ago were adamant about being careful of cameras, etc. But in my 3 weeks of Autobahn driving, not fully knowing all the ins and outs of driving there(and probably breaking quite a few minor rules, especially in cities), I never got any sort of ticket, automated or otherwise.

shalwechat · Jul 13, 2004

this is a humorous thread.

in germany they.........
the other guy drives like a........
its called driver training.......
in germany they are trained in bmws and costed 1,500....

"in germany, they..."
this is america (mexico, usa & canada), not germany. so who cares what they do there. german solutions may not work in america and american solutions may not work in germany.

"the others drives like a...." "in germany its called driver training"
why is it the other guys is an idiot. im sure we all do stupid things as we drive. just being more courtious to our fellow driver would go a long way. courtasy is something that no german bmw driving school could teach you, usually its for free at home. as we speak "holier then thou" when it comes to driving. i admit, what do you call that red thingie shaped like a octagon? *** il do 45 on the left hand lane. hit me, i need the insurence money. my car is worth 1,000, id love to the see the engine of a 50,000 beamer in the truck of my buick. my fellow FFW: dont throw rocks when you live in a glass house.

"in germany, they are trained in bmws and is costed 1,500 and its a prevelage"
in the usa, driving is a prevelage graned to you by the state. you have no right to drive in america. why does one need to learn to drive in a german car? i wanna learn to drive in a ford pinto, or a mustang. would the quality of my drivers education be harmed by the cost and make of car?...

my suggestion: ford pinto on the autobahn.

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