So anyway VW can back out of the buyback?

da_jokker

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I just got an e-mail that https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com has been updated so I was looking at it.

Something caught my eye (I know I'm splitting hairs here) but....

If the proposed Settlements are approved by the Judge, then Volkswagen has agreed to:
•Buy back, terminate leases or provide approved emissions modifications for nearly 475,000 2.0-liter TDI diesel cars in the United States;


Does that mean that if they come up with a fix that States agree on (maybe not even 100%) ... VW can refuse to buy back the car and instead only give you the option of the fix?


If that were to be the case, then dragging everything out may prove to give VW another Ace in their pocket. After all, wasn't the whole court thing because VW was not coming up with a fix after several months had passed?
 

da_jokker

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Volkswagen AG and the California Air Resources Board will begin testing hardware and software that could help the German automaker avoid buying back as many as 475,000 diesel cars sold in the United States with improperly designed pollution controls, the head of the board told Reuters.

......

Under the terms of a $14.7 billion settlement with state and federal regulators, Volkswagen must offer to buy back cars it sold in the United States between 2009 and 2016 that had 2.0-liter diesel engines with emissions control systems designed to cheat government tests.


....


However, if Volkswagen can satisfy regulators that repairs will significantly reduce emissions of oxides of nitrogen and other pollutants, the company could offer consumers a choice to keep their cars, and possibly reduce the costs of the settlement for the automaker.


So seems conflicting.. and since when is the goal to "reduce the costs of the settlement for VW?" I thought it was to make the consumers whole, to pay the EPA for damages, and to fine their butt so bad that no other car maker would even think about doing this again?
 

GoFaster

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Stop misinterpreting or re-interpreting.

VW must offer buybacks starting this October/November. If and when a fix becomes available then they can offer people who hadn't taken the buyback a choice of a buyback or a fix. It is the CONSUMER'S CHOICE which to take ... or to opt out and do nothing (and get no compensation).

If a fix becomes available, they can not back out of buybacks.

Stop twisting interpretations.
 

JSWTDI09

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The only way VW can "back out" of the buyback written into the settlement is if you tow your car into the buyback location. It appears that the only criteria for buyback is that the car must show up running under its own (2.0L) power. Presumably it could have hail or other body damage, it could be running in limp mode, smoking, and with the instrument panel lit up like a Christmas tree - as long as it arrives under its own power.

Have Fun!

Don
 
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tadawson

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It's kind of a shame . . . the judge should have waited to have all options in hand prior to forcing anything. If fixes are available, there really is no logical reason for a buyback . . . and don't give me the 'harmed' fairy tales . . . if people hadn't been told about this, nobody would have said a thing, since it has zero real impact on the end user . . .
 

GoFaster

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The judge realized, correctly, that owners were in trouble due to the loss in resale value and it was better to get the situation dealt with before the years of development of a proper fix. Mandating a buyback offer puts VW's feet to the fire.
 

bizzle

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It's kind of a shame . . . the judge should have waited to have all options in hand prior to forcing anything. If fixes are available, there really is no logical reason for a buyback . . . and don't give me the 'harmed' fairy tales . . . if people hadn't been told about this, nobody would have said a thing, since it has zero real impact on the end user . . .
At what point do you think corporations who lie to our consumers and government should be punished?
 

larrydk

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I think there's always a loophole! Being the cynic, VW could say enough is enough and pull out of the US market. Have VW USA file bankruptcy, and renegotiate settlement with courts.
 

da_jokker

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The judge realized, correctly, that owners were in trouble due to the loss in resale value and it was better to get the situation dealt with before the years of development of a proper fix. Mandating a buyback offer puts VW's feet to the fire.
Exactly...this whole settlement came about because VW simply didn't have a fix. Seems like if they came up with one everything could be back paddled
 

dwfdiesel

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I'm with the cynics "never count your chickens before they hatch". When you get your money in your hand run before they legislate it back. As long as VW has the money they will do everything possible to keep it agreement or not after all they had an agreement to make a clean diesel and that never happened. VW is in the business of making money period. They must have a plan up their sleeve maybe it's to fix all the purchased cars and sell them back after the fix as certified used cars. Going bankrupt works too.
 

john.jackson9213

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You people are forgetting that the current legal issue is a civil case. VW sold a bunch of cars under false claims.

Volkswagen is also facing criminal charges for violating Federal and California law. It is in VW's best interest to own up to the problem and fix it before the criminal charges come down.

More important to VW shareholders, the VW stock price has tanked, their car sales are in a decline. This scandal has badly damage the VW brand across the world. Shareholders expect and demand this be fixed properly and quickly.
 

speedrye

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You people are forgetting that the current legal issue is a civil case. VW sold a bunch of cars under false claims.

Volkswagen is also facing criminal charges for violating Federal and California law. It is in VW's best interest to own up to the problem and fix it before the criminal charges come down.

More important to VW shareholders, the VW stock price has tanked, their car sales are in a decline. This scandal has badly damage the VW brand across the world. Shareholders expect and demand this be fixed properly and quickly.
VW still just managed to surpass Toyota as the leading automaker in the world, so they can't be hurting too badly from this scandal...
 

S2000_guy

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At what point do you think corporations who lie to our consumers and government should be punished?
$4,700,000,000 in fines and environmental remediation funding would seem like punishment to some people.
 

XJTdi

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Does that mean that if they come up with a fix that States agree on (maybe not even 100%) ... VW can refuse to buy back the car and instead only give you the option of the fix?


If that were to be the case, then dragging everything out may prove to give VW another Ace in their pocket. After all, wasn't the whole court thing because VW was not coming up with a fix after several months had passed?
Remember, The standards the "fix" has to meet are relaxed from the original requirements the cars should have been able to meet when new. If VW takes the buyback off of the table or shirks off parts of the agreement, EPA/CARB will require the fix to meet the original standards.
And this event will descend to a whole new level of hell...:(
 

showdown 42

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The only cars that are a problem for VW are the 1st GEN with no ad blue systems as far as a fix is concerned. I will guess they with just punt on those cars and force owners to either take a buy back or keep the car with no compensation . tough S--- as they say. I am in that position, a low mileage 2009 and will get almost nothing for it if I turn it in.

Fortunately I live in a no emission test state and can drive for as long as I want,but I don't like the idea or having bad options forced on me.
 

jims2321

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Their not take the buyback off the table. That would kill the CAS, and result in hundreds of individual lawsuits. Similar, I have little faith that VW suddenly has a handle on how to address the NOx issue, that they did not have a year ago or 5 years or 19 years ago.

Bottom line is those that want to sell their cars back will be able too, those that will wait for the vaporware fix, will wait. Maybe the CARB/EPA will relent and grandfather all of those cars, after VW pays them an additional few billion.
 

tadawson

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At what point do you think corporations who lie to our consumers and government should be punished?
They should be punished by the agencies whose regulations were violated. They owe me nothing other than a fix to bring my car into compliance . . . my car does exactly what I bought it for, and will continue to do so. I take offense to folks feigning harm to effectively get a lottery payout over nothing more than butthurt. Again, had they not been told, they would have no issue, hence unaffected. And don't give me the tired resale value straw man bs argument . . . values could just as easily go back up and even surpass where they were depending on supply and demand moving forward . . .
 
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tadawson

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The only cars that are a problem for VW are the 1st GEN with no ad blue systems as far as a fix is concerned. I will guess they with just punt on those cars and force owners to either take a buy back or keep the car with no compensation . tough S--- as they say. I am in that position, a low mileage 2009 and will get almost nothing for it if I turn it in.

Fortunately I live in a no emission test state and can drive for as long as I want,but I don't like the idea or having bad options forced on me.
Apparently you have not been reading much of the settlement. There is already a new LNT to address those vehicles without DEF on the table . . .
 

da_jokker

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So sounds like everyone is saying that even if vw came up with a 100% fix for every car, each one of us still could force VW to buy our cars at sept 15 NADA? ... No matter what.

Hope so.
 

Redgrom

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"the tired resale value straw man bs argument . . . values could just as easily go back up and even surpass where they were depending on supply and demand moving forward . . "

You proved the reason for the buyback with one word, "could" no one knows the future value. People who wanted to sell before the settlement was announced would have taken a hit. People were stuck with cars they may have wanted out of for many reasons and didn't want to looses money because vw cheated. No one knew vw was going to offer people who sold their cars anything.
 

da_jokker

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Read the documents, then stop spreading FUD.
I appreciate the feedback attempt but you are not really bringing much to the table. The CAS was brought on because VW was dragging their feet with a fix. The court ordered them to provide a fix OR be forced to buy back cars. It wasn't until the courts lite a fire under their ass did VW bring in a new team.

In English when someone says you must provide door 1 OR door 2, it can be interpreted as to whom has the choice. I'm simply pondering that if VW now meets the relaxed standards...then why would they not be allowed to close door 2 (the buy back).

I guarantee that had VW had a fix in their back pocket and was just waiting to uncover it if they got caught, then this whole consumer mess would have simply been a recall and there never would have been any talk of buybacks.
 

DanB36

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In English, when a court order says:
IT IS FURTHER ORDERED that for each Eligible Owner who elects a Buyback, Defendant shall pay that Eligible Owner as set forth in this Order . . .
(page 19 of the FTC Consent Order), the Defendant (VW et al.) must pay for the buyback if the customer chooses the buyback. It's the Eligible Owner's choice, not VW's. Meanwhile, you continue to offer nothing but handwaving and FUD to confuse the issue.

What part of the settlement documents gives you the idea that it's VW's option, or that the question is ambiguous?
 

Rico567

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^^^^^^^

This thread should close. By the terms of the settlement language, VW must buy back a car if the owner so elects.
 

da_jokker

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Easy guys...there are interpretations going on all over the place. In this article http://fortune.com/2016/07/29/volkswagen-california-diesel-cars/ l interpret it as I it saying VW could avoid having to buy back cars...and not that they could resell cars.

I know you are quoting parts of a settlement, but I also know that the entire settlement is a proposal and won't be completely approved for some time.

Believe me, I'm putting money on the line that you are right, but to deny there is still time where things could change, including the possibility of "options" is ignorant. Hell even this forum has a poll where most voted to wait until the proposal is official to do anything.

I feel I'm being very reasonable, have valid arguments and people saying to lock this thread and tossing around the term "HUD" is uncalled for. What the hell does HUD mean besides heads up display.
 

r11

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Not w/o starting a WWIII.

Seriously though, they have signed legally-binding court documents. And 14B is really not a whole lotta of money. And VW execs dont want to spend the rest of their lives running from the long d1ck of US law.
 

DanB36

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Easy guys...there are interpretations going on all over the place. In this article http://fortune.com/2016/07/29/volkswagen-california-diesel-cars/ l interpret it as I it saying VW could avoid having to buy back cars...and not that they could resell cars.
Yes, they can avoid buybacks. If they don't get a fix approved, they must buy back 85% of the cars to avoid additional fines. If they do get a fix approved, they can comply by either fixing or buying back 85% of the cars (so they don't have to buy back 85%), but it's still at the owner's option, not VW's.

I know you are quoting parts of a settlement, but I also know that the entire settlement is a proposal and won't be completely approved for some time.
It's true that the settlements aren't final yet (they will almost certainly be made final in October), but do you really think there's any chance that the requirement for VW to buy back any eligible vehicle will be removed? VW agreed, in three separate agreements, to buy back any eligible vehicle whose owner wants to sell it back. All three of the agreements contemplated that a fix would be made available for all of the affected vehicles. None of the fixes will receive final approval before the October hearing. There's simply no conceivable way that VW could go back on this.

I feel I'm being very reasonable, have valid arguments and people saying to lock this thread and tossing around the term "HUD" is uncalled for. What the hell does HUD mean besides heads up display.
Not HUD, FUD. Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt.
 

DanB36

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...and to round this out...

Really, this is the core of the settlements, from the customer's perspective: the customer can, at the customer's option, sell back the car, or (if a fix is approved) get it fixed*. The FTC order is explicit on this, as I've quoted above. "But that's in legal-ese!" No, it isn't; it's in English, but there's also a notice to customers (see page 2):
These class members have two options: (1) have Volkswagen buy back their car (“Buyback”), or (2) wait to see whether the EPA and CARB approve a modification (“Approved Emissions Modification”) for the car’s engine type, and then decide whether to accept the modification.
(emphasis added)

That notice too long? Then there's a short-form notice, which is only one page:
Owners/Lessees can choose
Just want a summary of the benefits? Here you go, from page 1:
Eligible Owners shall be offered the choice between (1) a Buyback and Owner Restitution, including loan forgiveness as set forth in ¶ 14 below; or (2) an Approved Emissions Modification and Owner Restitution.
(emphasis added)

Need a summary of the summary? They have that too. Again, page 1:
These Class Members have two options: (1) have Volkswagen buy back the car (“Buyback”) immediately, or (2) wait to see whether the EPA and CARB approve a modification of the vehicle to reduce emissions (“Approved Emissions Modification”) for the car’s engine type, and then decide whether to sell their car back to Volkswagen or accept a free Approved Emissions Modification.
(emphasis added)

So, no, there is no vagueness or ambiguity as to whose choice it is. There's no lack of clarity that VW is obligated to buy back any eligible vehicle whose owner chooses to sell it back. No, @da_jokker, you are not being very reasonable, and do not have valid arguments, in this regard. And no, there's no chance that this is going to be changed to VW's option rather than the owner's option.

* Edit: or do nothing at all, but that isn't taking advantage of one of the options provided by the settlements.

Edit 2: and in bringing up the question of the agreements not being final, you're shifting the goalposts. You started this thread based on a misreading of the information currently on the settlement site, and I think I've conclusively shown that it was a misreading. Having seen a glimmer of the light that you were completely off base, you're now trying to change the subject.
 
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