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TDI (Diesel) Emissions This is a discussion about emissions from TDI's. Pro's cons of Diesels (including biodiesel) effects on the environment and how they compare to Gasoline and other fuel sources for Internal combustion engines.

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Old February 22nd, 2017, 08:43   #46
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All the rain Cali just got should have cleaned the air a bit,

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Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon View Post
Note where the folks who are defending CA air quality are from. I've been around Southern Californians often enough and long enough to know that it is difficult for many to accept that there is anything about their region that's less than perfect. And that most are loathe to understand why everyone wouldn't want to live there.

I do recognize that the air is significantly better. I lived in LA (mid-Wilshire) in the late 70s and remember how dirty I would get just being outside. However, it's obvious from air quality measures that CARB has either not done enough or not taken an effective enough approach to controlling air quality in that region.

I've always felt that LA is a dirty city, dirtier than New York or Chicago, for example. And that continues, even if it is somewhat diminished.
I did a road trip to LA in 95 on my street bike, white clothing turned black, pretty weird to see that happen,
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Old February 22nd, 2017, 09:32   #47
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I lived in Thousand Oaks between 1980 and 1992 and worked for ARCO in downtown LA as the West Coast Director of Environmental Affairs covering environmental compliance and systems assistance for two refineries (Carson and one in Washington state), many product terminals, chemical plants, offshore vessels, and all the pipeline systems. We loved T.O. until all the people and cars (traffic) came (and the drive by shootings - but that's another story).

In 1982 - 83, I did not like negotiating with the city of Santa Barbara and U of Cal. over the right of way for a crude pipeline as they insisted that moving crude oil by train was better for the environment. That's when I realized the state had gone bonkers.

California is a great place but the best places to live in the state is, IMHO, located hundreds of miles north of LA. We are in the great state of Texas now and love it. We still have relatives in the Santa Clara and west and north of San Francisco.

The last time I was in LA, which was a couple of years ago, I was shocked as to how much the traffic had increased on the freeways during non-rush hour periods. No wonder the air quality is still so poor, even with all the pressure to reduce emissions put on industry, and not on mobile sources to any great degree.
I kind of agree. There are some great places well North of L.A.. Although Bay Area cost of living is pretty outrageous, there are some outlying communities that are pretty nice. Sacramento area has some attractive qualities to it as well and isn't so outrageously priced, plus you're close to some very neat natural surroundings in the Sierra Nevada mountains.

LA has great weather, sure, but I kind of prefer having a bit more average rainfall, and the North definitely gets that!

One recent thing that does irk me with CARB is they effectively want to ban the sales of all new internal combustion powered vehicles by 2030. It's just another microcosm of the political divide in this country where the needs of the urban dwellers differ from the needs of the more rural communities.

Battery electric vehicles work great for congested but otherwise short commutes, but if they cannot make a BEV that can go well over 300 miles on a charge and only take mere minutes to fully recharge to go another 300, the technology is simply not that practical for the handful of people out there who do need to drive long distances with some regularity. CARB attempting to kill ICE powered vehicle sales will only remove alternative options for people who do in fact need to do frequent long distance driving, and their actions won't allow the market to continue offering such vehicles to the small number of individuals who require such vehicles.

And that attitude right there is just another example of why we have a divide in this country. One side or the other is trying to tell the opposing side how they're wrong or figure they know what's best for everyone, when they really only know what's best for people in a similar situation as themselves. Urban dwellers have a hard time empathizing with the needs of rural dwellers and vice versa. CARB has mostly urban concerns in mind, but they're starting to go too far when they want to outright ban a technology and force what they feel is superior for air quality reasons only.

I appreciate the want and effort to clean up the air, but taking away the people's right to make their own determination on what products best suit their individual needs is going too far.
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Old February 22nd, 2017, 09:39   #48
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It's as much about air currents as anything. Speaking from personal experience - you get an inversion with nothing to push the air out and it can get really nasty really quick.

Anyone care to guess where these pics come from, without cheating by checking the links?
West Coast weather is definitely a whole different animal compared to anything East of the Rockies, that's for sure.

Those photos look a lot like Portland when we came up for your GTG in 2015 with wildfires raging!
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Old February 22nd, 2017, 09:50   #49
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It'd be interesting to see a study on actual roadtrip behaviors, though - how often do people usually stop on a roadtrip, and for how long?

Considering that today, in 2017, we have a network that can reasonably be used for roadtrips (albeit with routing restrictions, and some destinations aren't practical to reach unless you really want to make it work), and Tesla's planning on upgrading their infrastructure for even faster charging (note that CARB actually has heavy incentives for extremely rapid charging, although they're aimed at hydrogen fuel cells, Tesla's intending to hammer their batteries hard enough to get those incentives on a BEV)... I'd argue that in another 13 years, it'd be a feasible proposition to have 300-350 mile range (especially in a sedan/hatchback, not a CUV/MPV) with recharging in, say, 10 minutes (with the caveat that you may not want to do that too often for battery longevity reasons).

And, setting high targets to meet forces automakers to actually try to meet them, rather than lazily producing inefficient SUVs, helping everyone who doesn't want an inefficient SUV.
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Old February 22nd, 2017, 12:10   #50
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SoCal really needs a well thought out mass transit system. Maybe Elon will get around to it in his spare time. All those cars sitting in traffic, spewing emissions- no thanks.
Respectfully, Southern California has a well planned mass transit system. It transports more people on a Sunday afternoon than the entire population of Maine. It has been continuously upgraded every single year since it first opened in 1939. It also delivers people from door to door, no matter where they want/need to go. We call it our freeway system. Seriously, L.A. scrapped it's light rail system in the 1950's.
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Old February 22nd, 2017, 12:41   #51
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Originally Posted by bhtooefr View Post
It'd be interesting to see a study on actual roadtrip behaviors, though - how often do people usually stop on a roadtrip, and for how long?

Considering that today, in 2017, we have a network that can reasonably be used for roadtrips (albeit with routing restrictions, and some destinations aren't practical to reach unless you really want to make it work), and Tesla's planning on upgrading their infrastructure for even faster charging (note that CARB actually has heavy incentives for extremely rapid charging, although they're aimed at hydrogen fuel cells, Tesla's intending to hammer their batteries hard enough to get those incentives on a BEV)... I'd argue that in another 13 years, it'd be a feasible proposition to have 300-350 mile range (especially in a sedan/hatchback, not a CUV/MPV) with recharging in, say, 10 minutes (with the caveat that you may not want to do that too often for battery longevity reasons).

And, setting high targets to meet forces automakers to actually try to meet them, rather than lazily producing inefficient SUVs, helping everyone who doesn't want an inefficient SUV.
And until the infrastructure and technology exists to make BEVs near as convenient as very efficient diesels for such trips and for charging stations to be as plentiful as conventional refueling stations, the government shouldn't be trying to limit other efficient technologies.

But that's the problem with CARB is they are only focused on air quality, not the bigger picture that includes practicality, longevity and economics or the fact that their favored technologies aren't yet practical for everyone. Maybe they're banking on developments getting those technologies to that point by 2030.

You know what has worked exceptionally well in Europe to largely affect car market choices? Fuel prices. People will hate me for suggesting it, but I have held firm on this for a solid decade now, inflating fuel prices to the point where people seriously have to consider more efficient choices for their pocketbook's sake is exceptionally effective. If fuel prices remain low, most of the market, as has been proven time and again, prefers large, powerful but inefficient vehicles.

We could do without CAFE standards altogether if people were naturally inclined to buy more efficient vehicles in the first place. It's rather silly to tell automakers to make highly efficient products with a corporate average fuel economy standard when the general public prefers larger, less efficient vehicles if they can afford to... I don't see the automakers as being at fault for merely bowing to what the market is demanding. I don't see that as lazy, I see it as shrewd business.

If you were running an automaker yourself and you saw the public's purchase tastes going that direction, you'd do whatever you could to get a piece of that market, wouldn't you?

Likewise, if buying tastes were changed to more efficient vehicles, you'd also invest towards that end as well.

I fail to understand the approach of CAFE when the problem really is market demand. Different way of looking at it, I suppose.
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Old February 22nd, 2017, 12:45   #52
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What CAFE does is it guarantees supply of efficient vehicles, insulating lower-income people somewhat from spikes in fuel prices - the supply side of the used market has more efficient vehicles available, lowering the price when it comes time to ditch a gas guzzler.

I think there's a place for both extreme fuel taxation (I'd be fine with literal $10/gal gas today, as long as some of those taxes were redistributed to fund progressive income taxation and reduction/elimination of general sales taxes) as well as CAFE, though.
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Old February 22nd, 2017, 12:55   #53
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Also, re: study on actual road trip behaviors.

That's ignoring the fact that we are individuals with different needs and behaviors. Sure, many people may stop every 200-300 miles or so, but I personally have gone 1200 miles in about 22 hours. With Diedre with me, we tag teamed double that in under 48 hours, minimizing stops as much as possible.

If you really need to get somewhere with minimal stop time for whatever your reason, I don't see BEVs coming anywhere close to small diesels in the near future.

And yes, that might be an exceptionally small percentage of people who need that capability, but that's what having the choice is all about. What if your job depended on having that ability? It would be rare, yes, but I think it's a mistake to ignore the fact that an individual's needs may be different than the majority and thus take away the individual's options to suit their own needs as they see fit.
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Old February 22nd, 2017, 12:58   #54
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My daughter lives in LA and doesn't own a car. She uses Uber almost exclusively. They have a great network of drivers, she can use Uber pool or straight Uber. Recently they sent her a promotion for 40 rides within 20 miles for $4 each. Yes, $4. Clearly this is a cost model that won't work forever for Uber, but while it lasts it's much less expensive for her than car ownership. No parking hassles, no buying fuel, she sits in back and reads in traffic. And if she needs a car for the weekend she can rent or get a Zipcar. Apparently this is a trend: people who live in the city of LA are ditching their cars.
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Old February 22nd, 2017, 13:15   #55
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My daughter lives in LA and doesn't own a car. She uses Uber almost exclusively. They have a great network of drivers, she can use Uber pool or straight Uber. Recently they sent her a promotion for 40 rides within 20 miles for $4 each. Yes, $4. Clearly this is a cost model that won't work forever for Uber, but while it lasts it's much less expensive for her than car ownership. No parking hassles, no buying fuel, she sits in back and reads in traffic. And if she needs a car for the weekend she can rent or get a Zipcar. Apparently this is a trend: people who live in the city of LA are ditching their cars.
And that's the urban vs. rural dichotomy at work, too. Once you've lived in a heavily populated urban area, you almost start to dislike driving. The heavy traffic also showcases a lot of aggressive drivers as well as ones that just don't pay attention, and you get irrationally angry at the people and situations. At some point, going without a car starts to sound really good. Let someone else worry about the idiots on the road.

But you get out in the less densely populated areas and you wonder what you would do without a car with decent range. Some people live in so exceptionally remote areas they have to drive long distances just to basic groceries. Granted, they're small in numbers, but that still comes back to the "one size does NOT fit all" line of thinking.

People live different lives and have different transportation needs and outlooks on the level of importance having a personal car can do for them. I think it's a mistake for government to operate in such a manner to overlook this.

I still maintain that CARB effectively wanting to outlaw an entire technology will be an overstep of their powers should they ever actually implement such rules.
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Old February 22nd, 2017, 15:17   #56
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What I am reading so far as a consensus here is that CARB, with their vast resources/power/etc., could have gotten an even better return on investment (ROI) in the last ten tears or so by also paying attention to gasoline engines that still do not have gas particle filters (GPF) in 2017 and are still spewing lots of PM and VOC into the air of Los Angeles, San Jose, etc.

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Old February 22nd, 2017, 15:56   #57
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Respectfully, Southern California has a well planned mass transit system. It transports more people on a Sunday afternoon than the entire population of Maine. It has been continuously upgraded every single year since it first opened in 1939. It also delivers people from door to door, no matter where they want/need to go. We call it our freeway system. Seriously, L.A. scrapped it's light rail system in the 1950's.
Raised in rural WI and i lived in SoCal as a young Marine (meaning too poorly paid to buy a car in cali) and found the mass transit system to be absolutely great. It did take more time to get places but i could get within walking distance of anything i ever needed. i used the busses and the coaster rail from oceanside to san diego regularly until i got a car 2 years later.

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And that's the urban vs. rural dichotomy at work, too. Once you've lived in a heavily populated urban area, you almost start to dislike driving. .
Again i came from rural and went to within a short drive of urban. I really didnt have too many issues with horrible traffic jams even in southern california. You just have to accept that the 5 and 405 are not the right place to be from 4-6pm... ever. i could leave the base going to LAX at 6pm and get there 20-30 minutes later than if i had left at 430pm.

I think tikal has a point that maybe restrictions on gassers have not been as aggressively implemented as their diesel counterparts even with considerably more gassers on the road.

Maybe that is intentional because they fear backlash if costly emmisions systems are implemented on more common vehicles.
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Old February 22nd, 2017, 21:01   #58
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What I am reading so far as a consensus here is that CARB, with their vast resources/power/etc., could have gotten an even better return on investment (ROI) in the last ten tears or so by also paying attention to gasoline engines that still do not have gas particle filters (GPF) in 2017 and are still spewing lots of PM and VOC into the air of Los Angeles, San Jose, etc.

Knowledge does not necessarily lead to wisdom!

I rather suspect that this discussion of CARB rules is quite heavy in identifying a number of issues the Air Resources Board has looked at as it considers what it (CARB) is required to do to complete it's legally mandated job. The Air Resources Board does not make regulations in a vacuum. The public and all kinds of special interests have their input to the board. Proposed Regulations go thru a process of modification and comment before they are adopted.

In the end, it is much like making sausage, not pretty to watch and not everyone will be happy with the results.

But that is how we, as a society, make public policy.
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Old February 22nd, 2017, 21:32   #59
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Someday, the air on earth will be pristine, but that's only when all the humans are extinct.
I'm guessing you haven't been nearby for volcanic activity or large forest fires. Intense winds on dry river beds can also make a mess. Dream on.
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Old February 23rd, 2017, 06:44   #60
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I rather suspect that this discussion of CARB rules is quite heavy in identifying a number of issues the Air Resources Board has looked at as it considers what it (CARB) is required to do to complete it's legally mandated job. The Air Resources Board does not make regulations in a vacuum. The public and all kinds of special interests have their input to the board. Proposed Regulations go thru a process of modification and comment before they are adopted.

In the end, it is much like making sausage, not pretty to watch and not everyone will be happy with the results.

But that is how we, as a society, make public policy.
No disagreements here. Thanks for pointing this out.

Based on the data presented so far and discussed, the California community lead by CARB, is putting most of their 'eggs in one basket' and they not getting the most bang for the money in terms of urban surface air pollution improvement:

http://www.lung.org/our-initiatives/...ed-cities.html


* Disclaimer: I live in the Greater Houston area and I am so glad we do not have the geographic features of the Los Angeles Basin, otherwise for air quality!

Last edited by tikal; February 23rd, 2017 at 07:03. Reason: Punctuation
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