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TDI (Diesel) Emissions This is a discussion about emissions from TDI's. Pro's cons of Diesels (including biodiesel) effects on the environment and how they compare to Gasoline and other fuel sources for Internal combustion engines.

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Old February 20th, 2017, 11:44   #16
wxman
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Also notice in the Lawson article I linked above:


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... Because the SoCAB is generally VOC-sensitive with regard to O3 formation, weekend O3 would be even higher than it is, were it not for the concurrent 12%–30% VOC emissions reductions that take place on weekends....

So the air quality improvements in SoCAB have been mainly from the VOC reductions, at least with respect to ozone formation.
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Old February 20th, 2017, 13:53   #17
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I'd consider replacing my old polluting diesel car with a new diesel car that pollutes much less.

Unfortunately there's nothing available right now, other than extremely expensive luxury models.

So, I'll just keep polluting, I guess.
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Old February 20th, 2017, 14:26   #18
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I do have a couple problems with the way the article is written. It calls out NOx as being directly deadly when those in the know blame it for more indirect production of ozone, as some of you have pointed out. There is a certain ratio of VOCs to NOx that will maximize production of ozone (which is the real problem with pollution regulations are attempting to curb), as has also been noted with mention of the weekend effect, where less diesel traffic on weekends dropped NOx output, but made the ratio of VOCs to NOx even more effective at producing O3.

However, this study points out that a massive drop in NOx output will ultimately have a better effect on slowing ozone reduction than an increase in diesel sales/increase in NOx output, hence the reasoning behind the regulations.

So, this is where the U.S. was smart to not encourage the sale of diesels until they had cleaned up significantly, because diesels have undoubtedly contributed greatly to the pollution problems of places like London and Paris, where for years regulators had provided incentives to buy diesels, thus making their local markets flood with diesel options and ultimately making their pollution issued worse.

But therein lies the rub. Now, since the regulators in Europe have encouraged and incentivized diesel sales for so long, they want to outright BAN diesels altogether from city centers, without taking into account that the latest generation of diesels are in fact exceptionally clean vehicles and are not contributing to the pollution issues like they assume. The older diesel cars with less sophisticated emissions controls devices? Sure, they're contributing to the problem, but the knee-jerk response to ban EVERY vehicle of a certain technology, while ignoring the fact that due to regulations the latest generation are in fact squeaky clean, even the cheaty ones, is disappointingly short-sighted, especially when the blame for most of the problem lies squarely with those very same regulators who thought encouraging the sales of diesels was a good idea more than 20 years ago...

They created the problem and now that diesels have actually gotten very clean, they're going to ban them outright? Fantastic bit of governance there...
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Old February 20th, 2017, 14:33   #19
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Does anyone see the irony that the OP lives in Southern CA, the region with the worst air quality in the US, and where auto emissions are dictated by CARB?
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Old February 20th, 2017, 15:16   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon View Post
Does anyone see the irony that the OP lives in Southern CA, the region with the worst air quality in the US, and where auto emissions are dictated by CARB?
Yes, ironic.

You would think that if CARB was effective, southern California would be in compliance with its SIP and the Clean Air Act ambient air quality standards. Then I would suppose finger pointing would be justified.
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Old February 20th, 2017, 15:52   #21
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Instead they have one of the highest childhood asthma rates in the nation. And LA exceeds ozone standards well over 100 days a year.
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Old February 20th, 2017, 15:57   #22
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*caution: entering fairy tale land, where governing bodies listen to science, facts and statistics...*

why do government agencies create ever stricter regs for cars while the 5 largest tankers in the world emit more pollution than every car in north america combined???

then multiply that by the thousands of large ocean going transport ships... But oh lordy we had better reduce the pollution from our passenger cars...

of course clean air matters, but shouldnt the biggest polluters be the ones in the crosshairs?
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Old February 20th, 2017, 16:57   #23
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But again, the response to reductions in ambient NO2 levels relative to ambient O3 levels does not correspond to a transition to a NOx-limited regime in California, even as of 2015.

According to EPA, ambient NO2 levels in the Southwestern U.S. (EPA Region 8) have declined by over 10% from 2010 to 2015 (from 42 ppb to 37.7 ppb). Ambient ozone levels in that same period are essentially flat (74 ppb to 73.4 ppb).


https://www3.epa.gov/cgi-bin/broker?...e=val&region=8

https://www3.epa.gov/cgi-bin/broker?...e=val&region=8


The point isn't that diesel vehicles are incapable of meeting extremely strict NOx emission limits, they are. It's which approach is most beneficial for O3 reduction. I remain skeptical that a primarily NOx-control strategy is the best approach.
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Old February 20th, 2017, 17:17   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ketchupshirt88 View Post
why do government agencies create ever stricter regs for cars while the 5 largest tankers in the world emit more pollution than every car in north america combined???

then multiply that by the thousands of large ocean going transport ships... But oh lordy we had better reduce the pollution from our passenger cars...
How many children live within a 1/4 mile of a highway in southern california? Millions? How many children live within a 1/4 mile of the worlds largest tankers? Zero?
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Old February 20th, 2017, 18:07   #25
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Ever seen the soot that collects on everything in Long Beach? The ships sit in the harbor and idle, and there's a coal terminal in San Pedro that generates dust which blows around. I think there are a few kids in Long Beach.
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Old February 20th, 2017, 21:15   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ketchupshirt88 View Post
*caution: entering fairy tale land, where governing bodies listen to science, facts and statistics...*

why do government agencies create ever stricter regs for cars while the 5 largest tankers in the world emit more pollution than every car in north america combined???

then multiply that by the thousands of large ocean going transport ships... But oh lordy we had better reduce the pollution from our passenger cars...

of course clean air matters, but shouldnt the biggest polluters be the ones in the crosshairs?
California ports are now pushing ships to shut down their diesel engines while in port and hook up to shore power while in port for just this reason. (At least most of the time).

Please note that Large Ocean going transport ships are in the middle of the ocean - NOT in the middle of large cities with 18 million people like cars.
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Old February 20th, 2017, 22:02   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon View Post
Ever seen the soot that collects on everything in Long Beach? The ships sit in the harbor and idle...
I believe they haven't been allowed to idle in port for some time now,

https://www.arb.ca.gov/ports/shorepower/faq/faq.htm

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Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon View Post
I think there are a few kids in Long Beach.
I believe that's why ships aren't allowed to idle in port.
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Old February 21st, 2017, 03:08   #28
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I'm not talking about the ships at docks. They anchor out in the harbor waiting to dock and unload.
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Old February 21st, 2017, 08:46   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john.jackson9213 View Post
California ports are now pushing ships to shut down their diesel engines while in port and hook up to shore power while in port for just this reason. (At least most of the time).

Please note that Large Ocean going transport ships are in the middle of the ocean - NOT in the middle of large cities with 18 million people like cars.
And much of america's population does not live in polluted congested cities yet we have to suffer of these laws.
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Old February 21st, 2017, 08:53   #30
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And much of america's population does not live in polluted congested cities yet we have to suffer of these laws.
That doesn't matter. Pollution travels. Ask people in Canada who suffer from acid rain caused by rust belt pollution. Or Californians who get pollution from China. As if they don't have enough of their own.

I don't mind pollution regulations, just CARB's holier than thou attitude, especially when they've been at it in LA for 40+ years and it's not working.
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