www.tdiclub.com

Economy - Longevity - Performance
The #1 Source of TDI Information on the Web!
Forums Articles Links Meets
Orders TDI Club Cards TDIFest 2016 Gone, but not forgotten VAG-Com List Unit Conversions TDIClub Chat Thank You




Go Back   TDIClub Forums > VW TDI Discussion Areas > TDI 101

TDI 101 Got a simple/basic TDI question? Are you a newbie (new to the forums). Feel free to post your question here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old February 8th, 2015, 16:03   #1
kVox42
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Raleigh, NC
TDI(s): 2010 Golf
Fuel Economy: My average weekly use, (mostly around town with a little highway thrown in) is about 36. Pure highway is about 53, but I stretched it to almost 59 on a recent trip at the coast: flat terrain, 55mph, no traffic lights or stops.
Question Conflicting info between VW US versus Europe

I'm planning to take an extended road trip later this year and want to pull a SMALL camping trailer. I will be traveling solo and I'm perfectly comfortable with minimal amenities. With that said, here's (one of) the early questions I've run into and I can't get a definitive answer to a VERY IMPORTANT question.

I have a 2010 Golf TDI with a standard transmission.

Iím looking at small, light-weight camping trailers now available and have come across conflicting information.

My owners manual says the vehicle is rated to tow up to 1,000 lbs.
However, in Europe, (including the UK), the same car is rated up to 725 kilograms - which is 1600 lbs, obviously a significant difference (60%). Iíve also come across articles and forum posts that list TDI models as being the best towing vehicle for its size in Europe, (although that's not info from VW itself). So my question is ... what explains the difference? I have written (and called) VW-USA and although they're friendly enough, all they will say is that "there's a difference in the 2 vehicles". When I ask for specifics I get basically corporate reluctance, (which I find a bit odd).

I have no desire or intention of ďmaxing outĒ what I will tow. In fact, I'm focused on keeping the trailer as light as possible. However, the 60% difference is confusing. Does anyone know if there IS a difference between the European and USA versions of the vehicle? If so, what exactly is it?

Horsepower?
Engine size (displacement)?
Breaking system?
Suspension?
Is it an emissions issue?
Bottom line is, all I'm trying to find out is can my US golf pull up to 1000 or up to 1600 pounds? Actually, I'm hoping to stay below 1000 but there are some attractive options in the 1200-1300 pound range.

Kevin
Raleigh, NC
kVox42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 8th, 2015, 16:08   #2
Fav40
Veteran Member
 
Fav40's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Orange County NY
Talking

Lawyer difference
Fav40 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 8th, 2015, 16:44   #3
CopaMundial
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Southeastern PA
Default

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread...ow+tow&page=21
CopaMundial is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 8th, 2015, 17:37   #4
TDI smile
Veteran Member
 
TDI smile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Greater Vancouver Area, BC, (Chilliwack) (b4 Edmonton, AB) Canada
Default

Have a look on u tube and find out, what big RV Trailer they pull in Europe...
TDI smile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 8th, 2015, 17:45   #5
Lightflyer1
Veteran Member
 
Lightflyer1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Round Rock, Texas
Default

The main difference between here and there (aside from litigation) is the required equipment used. Trailer brakes and better hitches over there. The best hitch here is 200/2000 tongue/trailer weight. It won't be safe to tow at euro limits with this. At 1000 lbs you should have no issue. At near 2k or above I would want a better hitch and trailer brakes. Especially for serious towing. You can get away with a lot in local slow speed towing. Some here tow some amazing loads.
__________________
My build thread:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=448086

Lightflyer1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 8th, 2015, 18:40   #6
40X40
Experienced
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Kansas City area, MO
Fuel Economy: TBD, new data forthcoming
Default

No conflict at all. One answer is good for Europe/UK and the other answer is correct for the USA.
All one has to remember is what market was your car intended for and where are you driving it?

Neither answer has anything to do with how much some people actually tow.... but it might affect a lawsuit or an insurance claim.

Bill
__________________
www.IHMSA.ORGhttp://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=Xtsxt7xgbpc
If you omit pertinent info from your question, you cannot reasonably expect a good answer.//Not affiliated with any vendors except as a customer.// Wise people lurk more.// I'm not a guru.// 'I got actual real friends in the real world'-T'sTDI/ If you were the only entry, there wasn't a race.// Grammar and spelling really are important, but I don't claim to be good at it.// Typical drivers can't.
40X40 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 9th, 2015, 07:11   #7
redbarron55
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Satsuma, Alabama
Default

The TUV ratings are Euro law and the hitches and wiring to turn on the trailer ESP are also required.
Tow ratings in the US are whatever the manufacturer says they are. There are ratinsg proposed by the industry, but the manufacturers have shied away from them since there a lot of bragging rights involved.
When the new standards are recognized then the ratings will change a great deal with the smaller cars rated higher and the (big) pickups rated perhaps lower.
redbarron55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 9th, 2015, 07:28   #8
belome
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Mid MI
Fuel Economy: 47'ish
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightflyer1 View Post
The main difference between here and there (aside from litigation) is the required equipment used. Trailer brakes and better hitches over there. The best hitch here is 200/2000 tongue/trailer weight. It won't be safe to tow at euro limits with this. At 1000 lbs you should have no issue. At near 2k or above I would want a better hitch and trailer brakes. Especially for serious towing. You can get away with a lot in local slow speed towing. Some here tow some amazing loads.
I totally agree with all of this. I'd have no problems towing 1k anywhere (and I have.) Once the weight goes up from there I'm more leary. On a nice clear flat road you could probably tow 5k pounds, but add in some other challenges like inclement weather or mountains and you have a huge recipe for possible disaster.

I think my personal max was just over 2k. It was 'fine' but I wouldn't have wanted to have to perform a panic stop in a rainstorm with it back there.
__________________
The only thing I can pass is a fuel stop, but I'm OK with that.
My claim to fame - I was banned from VWVortex!
belome is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 9th, 2015, 13:13   #9
redbarron55
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Satsuma, Alabama
Default

If you want the OEM VW hitch then buy the Westfalia with the wiring kit. Expensive, but the best you can buy for the application.
If you install this setup then the car and hitch will meet the specifications listed in the VW UK manual.
The 1500 KG rating is starting up a 12% grade and at this weight trailer brakes are required.
At the unbraked rating it is of course quite a bit less. Not because the car will not tow it, but rather the braking and stability ramifications.
With the Westfalia wiring kit the car detects the presence of the trailer and applied the T-ESP stability augmentation that helps the driver steer correctly and mat accelerate or brake any or all (Brake of course) wheels to correct for sway.
The braking curves , fuel metering and cooling programs are altered to optomise for trailering.
In europe since 2007 (I believe) trailer ESP is required.
Most small euro trailers have surge brakes and the breaking of the car is optomised for this. Adding electric brake systems will not interfere with the function, however.
The system is 13 pin and required an adapter for the North American 7 pin plug.
The wiring adapter also detects burned out bulbs on the trailer like the rest of the car (also required).
The overall system is TUV certified and the Westfalia mount ties into the main chassisbox sections that tie into the bumper supports in the rear and the hitch extends into these boxed for several feet giving the system the required stregnth.
Try this link:

http://www.pfjones.co.uk/tow-bars/to...olkswagen.html

Thes towbars are made by the inventor of the towbar starting in about 1932

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89KsMET0W5I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1LLug-JItU

I have searched for regulations pertaining to non-commercial below 10,000 lb GCVW and so far I have been unable to find any DOT regulations requiring a DOT approved hitch. There are general rules for commercial, but I have not found them yet for our small cars and trailers under 10,000 lbs.
Anyone have any links to the regs?

The SAE standard for testing to list approval is j684_201405 and you can download it for around $80.00.
I have still found no law that says that this must be met for under that 10,000 lb non-commercial application.
The closest I have found is this reference to testing for the classes of hitches.

http://www.dsd.state.md.us/comar/get...1.13.08.10.htm and the need for the hitch to have the specifications clearly marked which the Westfalia has.

The section on certification and testing has been repealed.

As near as I can find the hitch has to have its specifications posted on it and if it is advertised as DOT approved (DOT does NOT approve hitches by the way) it should meet the specification on testing of the J684 SAE specification which is probably very similar to the testing from Delaware noted above.
Also all references to testing I have found in state regulations have been repealed. All of this applies to under 10,000 lb GCVW and Non-commercial.
If you are OVER 10,000 lbs the commercial requirements may apply to you even though you are non-commercial!

Last edited by redbarron55; February 9th, 2015 at 13:50.
redbarron55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 10th, 2015, 09:13   #10
supton
Veteran Member
 
supton's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Central NH (USA)
Fuel Economy: 53/46/33
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightflyer1 View Post
The main difference between here and there (aside from litigation) is the required equipment used. Trailer brakes and better hitches over there. The best hitch here is 200/2000 tongue/trailer weight. It won't be safe to tow at euro limits with this. At 1000 lbs you should have no issue. At near 2k or above I would want a better hitch and trailer brakes. Especially for serious towing. You can get away with a lot in local slow speed towing. Some here tow some amazing loads.
I'm not sure how to read this statement. When I think of European vehicle speeds, I think of Autobahn, of course. When I think of Euro towing speeds, I think of 50mph max. Maybe 60. I forget what the limits are, but last I knew, as a general rule, 100kph was about the max limit, if that, for towing on the other side of the pond.
__________________
'04 Jetta Wagen 5spd GLS, 314kmiles, Koni Red's, SBC stage 2 clutch, VNT17, RC2 sold
'11 Camry base 6spd manual, 95k, wife's
'10 Tundra double cab, 4.6L, 95k, mine
supton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 10th, 2015, 09:17   #11
supton
Veteran Member
 
supton's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Central NH (USA)
Fuel Economy: 53/46/33
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by belome View Post
I totally agree with all of this. I'd have no problems towing 1k anywhere (and I have.) Once the weight goes up from there I'm more leary. On a nice clear flat road you could probably tow 5k pounds, but add in some other challenges like inclement weather or mountains and you have a huge recipe for possible disaster.

I think my personal max was just over 2k. It was 'fine' but I wouldn't have wanted to have to perform a panic stop in a rainstorm with it back there.
I've moved 1,000lb with my Jetta, and it does ok. Problem is, it gets more dicey as things get less perfect, as you mentioned. Driving up an inclined dirt road? Backing up an incline? At least on my car I found 1,000lb was about it. 1,000lb is nothing on nice flat ground, and something that takes work on dirt roads. 2,000lb plus is probably ok, again on flat asphalt. Certainly members here have pushed well past that.

[Maybe it was 1,500lb, the trailer docs said 1,000lb dry, 1,500lb GVWR, and since it was low optioned, and had nothing in it, I figured it was closer to 1,000lb.]
__________________
'04 Jetta Wagen 5spd GLS, 314kmiles, Koni Red's, SBC stage 2 clutch, VNT17, RC2 sold
'11 Camry base 6spd manual, 95k, wife's
'10 Tundra double cab, 4.6L, 95k, mine
supton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 10th, 2015, 11:27   #12
redbarron55
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Satsuma, Alabama
Default

The max speed limit on ST trailer tires is 65 MPH and this would be as fast as you might want to go.
Personally I usually drive 60 mph or so and occasionally 65 briefly.
Some tire manufacturers allow higher speeds if the tires are inflated over their namplate rating. Goodyear is one of them I think, but I am working from memory abd it hasn't been good for years!
My VW has been well behaved towing the Scamp and has plenty of power and averaged 25 MPG (Diesel) from Mineral Wells TX. to Mobile, AL. in summer heat.
Balance of the trailer is of paramount importance.
The trailer should weight no more than 80% of the weight of the car and ideally 10% on the hitch.
Since the hitch rating on my car is ~175 lbs this is the limit for me and I use a scale to place that much on the hitch which results in about 1" deflection on the springs.
I am planning on adding some air lift bags to raise the rear to aim the headlights under load.
I think that if one is careful, drives reasonably, loads the trailer correctly a TDI can probably tow 2500 - 2900 lbs safely.
I am currently rebuilding my Scamp and since the frame needed some work anyway I am lengthening the tongue to add stability and reduce hitch weight a little.
I am also building the trailer as light as I can while putting in the things SHE WHO MUST OBEYED wants.
The europeans go with a little less % of tongue weight than we like to see, but the EU specs call for T-ESP on all cars equipped for towing since 2007 (I think).
The JSW has good deadbeat stability and recovery from quick input at least at speeds ~ 60 MPH. It is one of the nicest combinations I have towed. The JSW behaved itself well and had no problems with the heat (102-108*F) in Texas.
If you want to tow and are reasonable then tow, If your decision is that you shouldn't tow with the VW then that is OK too.
I have looked over some of th eparts lists and tha main difference in Euro spec and US is the towing equipped sportwagen has towing springs that have a static ride heigth that 1" higher unladen. (Also the Westfalia hitch and wiring module to meet the UK spec).
Have fun and be careful
redbarron55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 10th, 2015, 12:52   #13
Lightflyer1
Veteran Member
 
Lightflyer1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Round Rock, Texas
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by supton View Post
I'm not sure how to read this statement. When I think of European vehicle speeds, I think of Autobahn, of course. When I think of Euro towing speeds, I think of 50mph max. Maybe 60. I forget what the limits are, but last I knew, as a general rule, 100kph was about the max limit, if that, for towing on the other side of the pond.
Weight was being discussed. While towing speeds have a place, that wasn't the topic here. Even in the US different towing equipment is needed for differing weights, on other vehicles. Trucks can pull 2000 lbs or 20,000 lbs. You don't want to tow 20,000 lbs with a truck set up for 2,000 lbs. Same with our cars to some extent. Laws here vary for personal towing. Common sense must be used, which can be in short supply for some. I towed a small car on a dolly with my Beetle once. Just to get it home. About 5 miles locally on surface streets at a low traffic time of day and slow speeds. No way would I do that for any distance and certainly not in traffic and at highway speeds.
__________________
My build thread:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=448086

Lightflyer1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 11th, 2015, 07:07   #14
Lightflyer1
Veteran Member
 
Lightflyer1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Round Rock, Texas
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by donal123 View Post
Have a look on u tube and find out, what big RV Trailer they pull in Europe...
It doesn't matter "what" they pull in Europe. What does matter is the towing equipment used and the laws or regulations governing doing that. We don't have access to that for the most part. They pulled the space shuttle with a Toyota Tundra. Do you think they did that with a simple cheap hitch? I doubt it.
__________________
My build thread:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=448086

Lightflyer1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 22nd, 2015, 23:04   #15
kVox42
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Raleigh, NC
TDI(s): 2010 Golf
Fuel Economy: My average weekly use, (mostly around town with a little highway thrown in) is about 36. Pure highway is about 53, but I stretched it to almost 59 on a recent trip at the coast: flat terrain, 55mph, no traffic lights or stops.
Default Heavier clutch

As the research continues for my 6-month+ road trip, I'm thinking about whether I should look into beefing up the clutch in my 2010 Gold TDI. I'm looking at several different travel trailers but I'm not quite settled on anything yet. As it turns out, most of what I'm looking at turns out to be right around the magic 1000 lb range, (which is the USA rated towing capacity). I'm considering everything I can do to keep the weight as low as possible while still having a reasonably comfortable and enjoyable traveling experience. I'm also looking at a custom built trailer that's very light - constructed of high end materials, but of course, the price reflects it. (It's almost double the price.) But it IS about 750 lbs.

At any rate, regardless of what I wind up with, any thoughts or suggestions on the necessity of getting a heavier clutch installed? I haven't checked on $$ but I suspect that won't be an inexpensive item either.
kVox42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hyundai versus VW and bad dealers. TomB VW Passat Family (NMS and B7) TDIs (2012+) 12 July 7th, 2013 09:49
Tried to order '09, conflicting info from dealer firewired VW MKV-A5 Golf/Jettas 14 July 10th, 2008 08:07
Getting conflicting info on First tune-up cathersal@gmx.net TDI 101 8 June 19th, 2007 13:34
More info on importing a VW from Europe diesel_freak VW MKIV-A4 TDIs (VE and PD) 11 September 6th, 2002 22:47


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 14:32.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright - TDIClub Online LTD - 2017
Contact Us | Privacy Statement | Forum Rules | Disclaimer
TDIClub Online Ltd (TDIClub.com) is not affiliated with the VWoA or VWAG and is supported by contributions from viewers like you.
© 1996 - 2017, All Rights Reserved
Page generated in 0.18262 seconds with 11 queries
[Output: 137.34 Kb. compressed to 116.18 Kb. by saving 21.16 Kb. (15.41%)]