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TDI Power Enhancements Discussions about increasing the power of your TDI engine. i.e. chips, injectors, powerboxes, clutches, etc. Handling, suspensions, wheels, type discussion should be put into the "Upgrades (non TDI Engine related)" forum. Non TDI vehicle related postings will be moved or removed. Please note the Performance Disclaimer.

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Old December 8th, 2009, 20:32   #1
Gearhead51
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Default Downsizing nozzles

Hey guys. I was wondering what the consensus was on nozzles. I currently have 2R520. They pull strong, but put off a bit of smoke anytime I go over 30% tps. My mileage is down about 3mpg from stock, and I want it back. While I know that there is no free lunch, I'd like to get as close as possible .

I have a ST2b, which you might know, is a VNT20 with different wheels. I'm not concerned with cost, but I have been wondering if R520 or PP764 is the way to go. I'd like to have good, smoke free power. A light haze is ok, but these 2R520 can make an intersection DISAPPEAR if I want. I also have a 11mm pump in a box. Should I toss that on at the same time? I'm looking for recommendations from ppl that have first hand experience with a similar setup. I can armchair engineer all day, and I've read plenty of threads on this issue, but my turbo is bigger than most, and smaller than some. What setup will give me optimum mileage and low smoke power? How much more power can be gleaned from the R520 over the PP764, and do I have enough turbo to bring it to a light haze?
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Old December 9th, 2009, 01:32   #2
cog
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r520+ 11mm pump is the best tried and tested way to go . as the 11mm pump will give the r520 equal flow rate capabilty of your current setup but with better spray pattern and attomistaion and piece of mind thats its doing no damage . im about to go for the r520s and there way to big for my set up really but ive asked some good tuners and they said they can tune the r520s to give no smoke or a light haze whatever i want so i may aswell go big now than change again later.
the pp764s are o.k and probably flow enough fuel with the 11mm pump but you will get allot more from the r520s and 11mm pump .
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Old December 9th, 2009, 06:54   #3
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I'll trade you my PP357's+$$ for the R520.
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Old December 9th, 2009, 07:15   #4
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02DslPwr,

Mine are 2R520. Are you sure you want to do that? I would take that deal, but I'd have to order new nozzles and get them setup first. Fortunately, I have a spare set of bodies, so my car won't be down in the meantime.
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Old December 9th, 2009, 07:32   #5
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I run the R520's with 12mm, 17/52, & racecam, with very low smoke, and still get 50-60mpg's. Got 45 mpgs on trip to Nedd8 and New hampshire fully loaded w/1000lbs of tools and equipment.

I set cruise control on 100mph on 84 in PA poconos for a while at 1am. (egts @1000, and 15psi at 3100rpms/100mph)

btw, joetdi runs the same setup with 11mm. I don't know if his is dialed in 100% yet, but he can comment on his FE.

7 holes are just wrong imho, spray cones overlap in swirl. I would bet a steak dinner, 6 holes would be perfect - more even spherical distribution compared to the 5 hole (3 in the front and 2 in back)!

Jeff ;-)
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Old December 9th, 2009, 08:40   #6
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I'll have to double check with Charlie and make sure he can write a program for my car and its limited mods. 2R520 are actually larger than I was wanting to go, I should have read closer. I'll get back with you if they are something I can use. Then again, I cant afford to have my car down for several days while nozzles are shipped back and forth. Go ahead and persue any other options you may have and don't worry about me. I'll get back with you asap if they are going to work.

Thanks Gearhead!
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Old December 9th, 2009, 13:41   #7
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Charlie is the person that did my tune. If you're interested, I can order new nozzles, have them balanced and installed on my spare bodies, then I can ship these to you if you would like. You might need a bit more turbo than you have. Mine will come close to clearing the smoke, but it's still a bit much for me. I have a for sale or trade thread http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=266253 if you want to move this convo over there.

Thanks.
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Old December 10th, 2009, 03:41   #8
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ive heard that aligator has tuned cars on stock turbo with the 2r520s with no problems yet. but charlie said the 2pp764s work best with vnt 17 , im supposed to be getting some but they havent turned up yet but i will be much happier with the spray pattern of 5 hole race 520s for piece of mind
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Old December 10th, 2009, 04:21   #9
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I don't have first hand experience with those nozzles, but DbLog had PP764s with an 11mm pump and a VNT-20 from Charlie (S/T, perhaps). That car smoked a lot on tip in because the turbo was slow to spool. His EGTs were also very high on the track.

I hear what others are saying here, but my best experience for low smoke and good power and economy has been PP502s with a 10mm pump, VNT-17/22, and RC6. I'm getting 50 MPG highway at 75+ MPH.

PP520s with the 11mm and also worked very well.

Just my .02.
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Old December 10th, 2009, 06:27   #10
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Peter,
Most of my smoke is on tip in. Of course, smoke is relative. Perhaps I'll hang my camera on the mount and face it out the back window.

My turbo is not slow to spool, but boost threshold is clearly higher than the stocker. It spools MUCH faster than I thought it would. Since I got the actuator dialed in, it's a beast. By watching the smoke level and feeling the way the car pulls, I think most of my softness on the bottom end is more related to the smoke map or the torque map. I need to do a dyno run to see where I am power wise. I have sent Charlie messages on Gtalk at all hours of the day, night, and on weekends and he has been VERY good about modifying my tunes and getting back to me. I might get him to alter tip in, and TPS aggressiveness. I have to say, the car runs very well and is quite streetable for a day's worth of bolt ons. I guess I need to ride in some cars at the next meet.

There is the possibility that I would get better mileage if I could keep my foot out of it.
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Old December 10th, 2009, 15:09   #11
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I don't know enough to comment on mapping, but even if you feel a lot of response (big nozzles will do that) smoke will result if the turbo isn't responding adequately. I can get the 17/22 to smoke if I hit the go pedal, even lightly, at 1200 RPM in 3rd, for example. The car responds fine, but it also smokes. But that's the only situation where it does.

I would be hard pressed to believe your setup can accommodate those nozzles. You're on the right track.
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Old December 10th, 2009, 18:59   #12
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Had the same injectors balanced by Pete and tune by Charlie and guess what? Cracked piston!
Not necessarily Pete's or Charlie's fault....but the 7 holes gotta GO

I say go with 11mm + R520s or go for something bigger like the DSS Ultimes or Nicktanes + 11mm and just tune for less fuel with software

My engine is in the machine shop because of these 2R520s....save yourself the trouble and go with something proven as previously mentioned!
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Old December 11th, 2009, 14:39   #13
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Most of mine is down low... at least the part that bugs me. It'll blow a cloud for about 0.5 sec while the turbo comes up if I'm on the interstate above 2500 RPM, then it's a heavy haze. I wouldn't say it's thick and black. Just a haze.

Loudspl I hear you. I think I'm just going to go R520. I thought these 7 holes would be too big. I was right. I haven't had any issues, and I'm not pushing things as hard as you. As a matter of fact, I was telling Charlie that I wanted a weaker tune. I just want the smoke to be less on tip in, even at the expense of turbo response, and my mileage back... some.

I also want to feel a strong setup with 5 holes just to see if I'm leaving anything on the table. The only way I know that this is going to happen is to some logs swap to R520s and do some logs.

I have to be honest, anybody that rides in my car is impressed and can't believe the mileage it gets. You guys know the feeling. I ordered the FMIC yesterday. I guess I'll do the 12.3" brakes, front bumper, and FMIC at the same time.

Thanks for your help, guys.
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