No cetane boost WILL it damage the engine?

BeetlePD

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I recently ran out of Amsoil Cetane Boost and it’s expensive to buy more. Will I damage the engine if I stop using it? Thanks :). 2005 TDI

The EPA did a study showing boosting to cetane 50 will improve MPG but also emit more NOx so they vetoed changing the minimum standard from 40. Maybe they should reconsider now that DEF can neutralize NOx to zero

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MichaelB

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So when I bought my TDI why did people insist I need Cetane boost?
Because at that time there were people like Bob Fout who could not resist the idea of not pouring something into the fuel. He has long since evaporated and no longer drives a TDI. Many other members at the time felt that things like cetane boost made their cars run better. I for one tried all the additives that are and were generally listed on this forum. Nothing made the car start quicker or run faster smoother or gain fuel economy. Anything gained was placebo. The only add I use and not very regularly is PS white bottle for it's antigel and water removing properties. Nothing about increasing the longevity of my car. My take on additives. Buy your diesel fuel at high turnover stations and forget about it except when it is extremely cold and even then you will probably be just fine. Drive more and worry less about stuff like cetane additive probably it just drained your wallet and helped to make Amsoil richer.
 
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Lightflyer1

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Because at that time there were people like Bob Fout who could not resist the idea of not pouring something into the oil or engine. Many of those members at the time felt that things like cetane boost made their cars run better. I for one tried all the additives that are and were generally listed on this forum. Nothing made the car run faster smoother or gain fuel economy. The only add I use and not very regularly is PS white bottle for it's antigel and water removing properties. Nothing about increasing the longevity of my car. My take on additives. Buy your diesel fuel at high turnover stations and forget about it except when it is extremely cold and even then you will probably be just fine. Drive more and worry less about stuff like cetane additive probably just drained your wallet and helped to make Amsoil richer.
A man after my own heart! My feelings exactly. I don't understand why so many people feel he need to dump stuff in their oil and fuel. Cold weather operations is the only exception I make as well, other than bio already in the fuel (B5). Fortunately I live in Texas so even that isn't needed much if at all. I also tried most of the additives discussed at one time with no noticeable improvements at all. Just fuel from a good station and that is it. Car runs fine.
 

MichaelB

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Just an afterthought about my previous post. Many many lurkers here read the stuff posted by members and never question what they read they just believe it because someone or ones here on this forum posted it. That is how misinformation is spread. To any newbie.......do not believe what many members here have posted. Just use this forum as a starting point for your own research.
 

BeetlePD

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I’m surprised no Pro-additive people replied. I thought I’d see at least one say “low quality US diesel will damage the pistons” or something.

The EPA did a study showing boosting to cetane 50 will improve MPG but also emit more NOx so they vetoed changing the minimum standard from 40.
 

Jetta_Pilot

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I add PS silver, in Mexico the Diesel is still LSD as well it is only 45 cetane.
I force regeneration cycles as well I hope the slight increase in cetane will help overcome the negatives of LSD vs ULSD here.

Just for BeetlePD's information, originally the Diesel engine was designed to run on peanut oil.
 

Rob Mayercik

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I use PowerService myself every tank - white bottle in winter, silver in summer.

Main reason is for lubricity it adds, secondary is extra anti-gel insurance in winter (even though NJ is in a relatively moderate climate zone).

Never expected to get MPG benefits, aside from maybe slowing degradation by the cleaning agents helping to slow deposit buildup in the injectors.
 

Powder Hound

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...
The EPA did a study showing boosting to cetane 50 will improve MPG but also emit more NOx so they vetoed changing the minimum standard from 40.
At least post the url. You could be manufacturing this 'study'.

There are several concepts here that bear scrutiny.

1) When discussing the cetane level of the fuel, how is it changed? For a study, do they use additives to manipulate the fuel, or do they generate actual cetane from refined diesel only? The question here is, when cetane levels are changed after the fuel is purchased, then it is nearly always entirely by adding a nitrated compound. Will that additized fuel behave differently, and have different effects on the engine when compared to unadditized diesel?

2) Are there other reasons for additizing diesel? Personally, I am interested in lubricity improvements, and additize for that. And no, I don't use the widely-acclaimed-without-proof Power Service. Finding it everywhere demonstrates profit making ability, not proof of claims.

3) Why is US diesel always referred to as 'poor quality'? Has anyone ever produced any objective, independently verified measurements to back such statements up? If you really feel that everything US is bad, then STFU and please leave! I'm sure you'll find there's some collectivist haven where you can complain to your heart's content, and leave the rest of us alone.

Cheers,

PH
 

MAXRPM

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From LSD to ULSD now in the US fuel is dry so pumps will not last what they are supposed to, I add diesel Kleen and 2 stroke oil ashless, improvements in mpgs I do not know, but I've had my pumps in all my ALHs for over 10 years running and i haven't had any issues, my golf which is bumped up got a 12mm pump and i know if i did not use the additive after racing or driving her hard, pump would've taken a dive, so to say additives do not do anything I would say it depends how you lay it out, real test is to have the pumps withoout additives and issueless for so many years and miles in the car.
 

Powder Hound

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Back to the original question: without additives, it is highly unlikely that you could pin any cause of failure on the fuel. The most you'd be able to do is have a possible jelling episode in really cold weather if you happened to get inadequately winterized diesel. After that, you might experience greater wear levels in the injection pump (for those of us still using the venerable ALH and earlier models) and injectors, but it will take a very long time for it to show up, and be very difficult if not impossible to prove. Hence, nobody says much of anything along those lines.

Cheers,

PH
 

Powder Hound

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...so to say additives do not do anything I would say it depends how you lay it out, real test is to have the pumps withoout additives and issueless for so many years and miles in the car.
Hence, without double blind studies, which would take many years and a budget measured in cubic dollars to perform, a definitive empirically generated answer is not possible.

Cheers,

PH
 

BeetlePD

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MichaelB

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. I read it YEARS AGO so should I memorize web addresses that old? Anyway I googled it for you and found this : Not sure if it’s the same study but it looks similar


According to that study that you just posted higher cetane numbers reduced the Nox not increased it so it was not vetoed because of increased Nox. It was determined that that increased cost would deter the buyer from purchasing it, This is also taking place in 2003 and totally irrelevant to low cetane destroying your car's engine.


This is from that study:
"typical" cetane increase of 5 numbers will produce a 2.1% reduction in NOx"















 

D_Bill

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additive

fwiw



I started using " Red Line " in my 01 Jetta years ago . Like all good ( snake ? ) oil additives it claimed cetane boost, antigelling, lubricity, and . . .


I wanted the cold weather starting and lubricity . I followed the guide and put in about an ounce per tank ( virtual venectomy - ie hold the flapper with the diesel nozzle :) but for all I knew it worked ( or not ? ) so no problems with pumps, starting ( well till the glow plug harness failed - connections easily fixed ) and mpg hung in there very high 40's to low 50's at goodly speeds .


With new to me 02 golf ( 167K miles ) I found a couple old bottles of Red Line in the basement and have started using it again. An ounce per tank - though this Golf was ridden hard and put away wet I am hoping to spare it an early demise !


Not sure I can think of any test that would determine if it helps . . .
 

MichaelB

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fwiw



I started using " Red Line " in my 01 Jetta years ago . Like all good ( snake ? ) oil additives it claimed cetane boost, antigelling, lubricity, and . . .


I wanted the cold weather starting and lubricity . I followed the guide and put in about an ounce per tank ( virtual venectomy - ie hold the flapper with the diesel nozzle :) but for all I knew it worked ( or not ? ) so no problems with pumps, starting ( well till the glow plug harness failed - connections easily fixed ) and mpg hung in there very high 40's to low 50's at goodly speeds .


With new to me 02 golf ( 167K miles ) I found a couple old bottles of Red Line in the basement and have started using it again. An ounce per tank - though this Golf was ridden hard and put away wet I am hoping to spare it an early demise !






Not sure I can think of any test that would determine if it helps . . .

Well, since you already purchased this wonder elixir if I was you I would just use it up. Probably simpler than disposing of it in an environmentally friendly manner. I would purchase no more, but if it makes you sleep better at night I guess it's probably cheaper than sleep medication.

Motor on.
Michael
 

iluvmydiesels

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cetane boost is an optional additive. in using user is 'hoping' (with fingers crossed) something beneficial is happening. we as average consumers have no or little idea whats really in one of these bottles. that being said i use the same stuff. i get a big bottle of amsoil cetane boost to use with the fuel treatment, its standard, the injector clean. i think the big bottle of cetane boost is about $24, its not expensive, considering if you fill up 10gals of fuel you add 2oz of additive.
a 2005 takes fuel treatment, for lubricity, pump and injectors. the one guy, looked like michael has a '14 it may not have the same additive requirements for ULSD to use in his car.
all these additives, treatments make claims on the bottle or in advertising, so much fuel economy improvement, performance improvement, etc,etc. some additives and treatments have proven benefits. some are use as you feel, maybe it has an effect.
in a couple of weeks im planning to pull my head, i can get a look at my insides for the first time in a few years, and i will be able to see some of the effects of using treatments, additives.
 

tdiatlast

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cetane boost is an optional additive. in using user is 'hoping' (with fingers crossed) something beneficial is happening. we as average consumers have no or little idea whats really in one of these bottles. that being said i use the same stuff. i get a big bottle of amsoil cetane boost to use with the fuel treatment, its standard, the injector clean. i think the big bottle of cetane boost is about $24, its not expensive, considering if you fill up 10gals of fuel you add 2oz of additive.
a 2005 takes fuel treatment, for lubricity, pump and injectors. the one guy, looked like michael has a '14 it may not have the same additive requirements for ULSD to use in his car.
all these additives, treatments make claims on the bottle or in advertising, so much fuel economy improvement, performance improvement, etc,etc. some additives and treatments have proven benefits. some are use as you feel, maybe it has an effect.
in a couple of weeks im planning to pull my head, i can get a look at my insides for the first time in a few years, and i will be able to see some of the effects of using treatments, additives.
Uhh...not really. All you'll see is...is...the "insides" of the engine. There's no way for you to tell what, if anything, the additives accomplished.

As for the concern of low-quality diesel fuel, many here will remember the beginning of the HPFP failures that were occurring in early (2009>>>) common-rail TDIs. This was a very real, and very serious ($6k fuel pump failures) concern. It was speculated, and then established (various testing orgs) that newly mandated ULSD had lubricity ranges that were all over the place. It took several years for the issue to settle down, but the early CR owners were, for the most part, using additives to aid lubricity.(PS, Stanadyne, OptiLube, etc.)

As someone stated earlier in this thread, there is absolutely no way to determine if additives "work", w/o serious, and expensive, lab tests. There are just too many variables to account for in the real world.
 

iluvmydiesels

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Uhh...not really. All you'll see is...is...the "insides" of the engine. There's no way for you to tell what, if anything, the additives accomplished.
i dont disagree at all, at least not fully. i know what your getting at. i do know what i ll be looking at, and for. looking at the upper cyls, internals, chambers, looking for deposits, how much and color, among other things, and for wear and other abnormalities. i realize its 'only' a visual in some regards. some of it like the color of deposits is mostly the last few cycles before you shut 'er off, and at idle.
i think its in this section in the 2cycle oil topic, one member who uses 2cycle oil and additive posted nice pics of his piston tops and how clean everything was in that area.
it will give me, at the least, some info as to whats been going on in there since my last work on it.
last time i did this much work on this engine i had to replace the head, and some parts internal, other than that mishap there was (almost) no visible internal wear. pretty much lower and upper. the cylinder factory cross machining pattern was still very visible.
 

BeetlePD

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$24 for a large bottle is like $24 a gallon. I know its spread over 60 tanks but still not cheap.

A bottle of 2-stroke oil is only 1-2 dollars and probably provides more lubricant than Powerservice.
 

MichaelB

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$24 for a large bottle is like $24 a gallon. I know its spread over 60 tanks but still not cheap.

A bottle of 2-stroke oil is only 1-2 dollars and probably provides more lubricant than Powerservice.

Amsoil Cetane boost provides no lubricity what so ever, Higher cetane may improve combustion but has no effect on lubrication. To compare it to 2 stroke oil is like comparing motor oil to water. Those two adds are completely different, the difference in price means nothing. You could combine the two and increase the hurt on your wallet some more.
 

[486]

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I've been running anti-cetane-boost lately, aka gasoline and motor oil

it runs pretty much indistinguishably, recently tossed in a few gallons of diesel from a couple part out cars and... no change in how it smokes starts or runs

which is to say, whatever snake oil you dump in the tank won't do a thing.
Save those pennies and put them toward a timing belt and water pump.
 

turbobrick240

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Yeah, I determined that fuel additives really aren't worth my money and the hassle. Besides paying for the stuff you have to haul it around and dig it out for fuel ups. They can stay on shelf at autozone next to the Lucas and Slick50.
 

MichaelB

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I've been running anti-cetane-boost lately, aka gasoline and motor oil
it runs pretty much indistinguishably, recently tossed in a few gallons of diesel from a couple part out cars and... no change in how it smokes starts or runs
Don't tell him that.........he will try that too and come back here crying.
 
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