ALH IP 10mm vs 11mm

2002 ALH with automatic, 128k miles ........ new TB (the works)

So, the guy had his IP rebuilt primarily due to the electrical connector being cracked there on the side. Did the TB job while there.

Anyway, he could not get it to start.

He brought it to me. This is the first one to stump me!

Question! Would a 10mm IP work with the injectors that come with the 11mm pump? I'm not sure if the pump is 10 or 11mm (how can I tell?).

Next, it appears the guy broke loose the center nut on the IP. The paint marks from the rebuild do not match. If so, is that something I can re-set? I know the Bentley says it cannot be done at a regular shop... meaning it needs to go to a specialty shop. Something I just thought, I could remove the sprocket and rotate the end of the pump shaft to see if the timing appears to be "on cam" just as the hole aligns for the IP pen lock........... could try that!

Lastly, the air is out ......... sprays plenty of fuel at all four injectors!

I do have a known good 10mm IP that I can put on to rule-out anything else, but if it will not work with the 11mm IP injectors, that would be a waste time.

Suggestions welcome!........... be back later tonight!

There is a thread here about resetting the hub. Used a set screw to hold the shaft I believe.

Maybe there's a visible mark inside the hub from the keyway on the shaft that would get you close.

If I understand what you suggested I think it would work but might be tough to turn the shaft against the springs without the hub on. Maybe rotate it with the hub on and mark the shaft to line up with the hole at TDC of the pump then relocate the hub.

I don't think there's anything magic about where it's set. Just that the correct place would get the full range of adjustment of the sprocket.

To do this properly you will need the proper adapter and dial indicator to measure plunger lift inside the pump. The hub is not keyed to the shaft. For proper static timing the hub must be installed so that the timing pin can be fully inserted with .85 mm of plunger lift in the pump. There is a small mark on the pump housing behind the hub that is there to align the plunger to the proper cylinder of the engine (the key slot in the drive shaft should be aligned with the mark to start with, then the pump rotated clockwise until you get the proper plunger lift, then the saft is locked into place there and the hub installed and torqued to the shaft. Then it is a good idea to go back and reccheck that the hub didn't move while being torqued (.85mm lift with the pin fully inserted.

During the reseal process (that I offer through Ebay, user Red---Rider) I remove, and reinstall the hubs in ordeer to replace the drive shaft seal.

To determine 10mm or 11mm - There is a part number on the side of the pump.

The number including 404 is the 10mm manual transmission pump. 414 is the 11mm for autos.

There's another thread with the full part numbers and pictures, but I only ever remember the 404/414 part.

I understand that the 10mm will work with the auto nozzles but power will be down. Best to swap in the manual nozzles with a 10mm pump.

Okay, guys, thanks for the suggestions and comments.

Well, I was concerned that the rebuild shop gave the guy a 10mm IP. I got in touch with him tonight. He said it was the same IP.

So, I need to set the hub. He did say that he loosened it, which I thought so due to the paint not matching. And, in very small increments, I re-set the timing from one end of the range to the other with not even a hint it was about to start.

Also, on initial inspection, I first thought he had tensioned the TB tensioner in the wrong direction. Well, as it turned out, the tab was out of the slot. That's why it didn't look right (position of the spanner wrench holes).

Well, tomorrow I'll sort it all out and report back.

Used the gauges many times for the old 1.6 pumps, but never 1.9 electronic. The bung hole is there.

I hate to say this, but I'd rather buy a new pump then screw with some Ya HOOs rebuild. But my skill level with the 1.9 rotary electronic pumps is about zero.

I re sealed mine and replaced temp sensor except shaft seal that's about it. The 1.6 and 1.5's I've torn apart.

See HERE for info on how to retime your pump, do it yourself style... Thanks to Jimbote for this one.

FlyTDI Guy said:

See HERE for info on how to retime your pump, do it yourself style... Thanks to Jimbote for this one.

Click to expand...

Great article.

I did some re editing on my post, but maintained I'm an idiot with the new 1.9 rotary electronic pumps. I've got a pump gauge though. LOL. According tp Jimbote's article it should be easy. It seems with the key way that would work if the pump was rebuilt correctly. I can see using a gauge as well.

vwdieseling said:

Great article.

I did some re editing on my post, but maintained I'm an idiot with the new 1.9 rotary electronic pumps. I've got a pump gauge though. LOL. According tp Jimbote's article it should be easy. It seems with the key way that would work if the pump was rebuilt correctly. I can see using a gauge as well.

Click to expand...

I had my pump re-timed by DFIS in Portland, OR and they used much the same method as the older pumps. Removed port bolt, insert custom dial indicator, rotate pump using dial indicator to find correct spot on cam plate, lock the shaft via the port Jim cites, install hub and torque to spec. Having witnessed this procedure I assumed it was a function best handled by experts. Jim has another description of his method and, between the two, demystified the whole process a bit. Didn't know about the reference mark on the seal snout. Good info...

Okay, the link to Jimbote's write-up on how to replace the shaft seal is very revealing. By the way, excellent write-up Jimbote.

Since the hub/shaft are a morse taper requiring the use of a three-jaw puller to remove the hub, I doubt if loosening the big nut (not removed) affected the IP timing.

Does anyone see that differently.

As to a Yahoo's rebuild, the pump was rebuilt at a reputable shop. I was only thinking that the owner of the car who installed the IP had loosened the shaft nut due to the paint marks appearing to not be aligned. I didn't question and have no reason to question the quality of the IP rebuild job. All rebuilders (and the builders) use paint to provide a means to assure that the pump has not been opened after it left their business!

AndyBees said:

Okay, the link to Jimbote's write-up on how to replace the shaft seal is very revealing. By the way, excellent write-up Jimbote.

Since the hub/shaft are a morse taper requiring the use of a three-jaw puller to remove the hub, I doubt if loosening the big nut (not removed) affected the IP timing.

Does anyone see that differently.

As to a Yahoo's rebuild, the pump was rebuilt at a reputable shop. I was only thinking that the owner of the car who installed the IP had loosened the shaft nut due to the paint marks appearing to not be aligned. I didn't question and have no reason to question the quality of the IP rebuild job. All rebuilders (and the builders) use paint to provide a means to assure that the pump has not been opened after it left their business!

Click to expand...

I got a couple around here.

I had a similar situation when my 11mm arrived w/the center nut showing evidence of having been off. Unsure, I just had it re-timed @ DFIS. The Jimbote post allows you to do this at home. If you're confident the hub itself hasn't been moved (requiring the puller) then I wouldn't worry about it... at least no more than the amount you are unsure. Personally, I wasn't comfortable leaving it to chance.

Well, unless the guy took the hub off before he installed the IP, there's very little chance he did it while mounted. He says no! Considering his humble state of mind, I seriously do not doubt his word (lost his 17 year old daughter in a car wreck one week before high school graduation last year, big story here locally).

Anyway, today, I could not get it to do anything........ bled injectors a number of times, forced fuel thru the IP with my home-made apparatus, etc. With two brand new batteries, the starter spins the engine fast (remember, according to the owner, it was running just fine prior to IP removal, just leaking fuel at the cracked electrical connector).

I removed the IP Sprocket to observe where the pump appeared to be breaking to high Cam as I rotated the hub/shaft with the 22mm wrench. Compared to the IP on the bench, visually no difference.

So, I am of the opinion the IP is out of time internally 180 degrees or doesn't make enough pressure to break the injectors. Since there's no smoke while attempting to start the engine, I'm leaning toward lack of pressure being the problem.

AndyBees said:

Well, unless the guy took the hub off before he installed the IP, there's very little chance he did it while mounted. He says no! Considering his humble state of mind, I seriously do not doubt his word (lost his 17 year old daughter in a car wreck one week before high school graduation last year, big story here locally).

Anyway, today, I could not get it to do anything........ bled injectors a number of times, forced fuel thru the IP with my home-made apparatus, etc. With two brand new batteries, the starter spins the engine fast (remember, according to the owner, it was running just fine prior to IP removal, just leaking fuel at the cracked electrical connector).

I removed the IP Sprocket to observe where the pump appeared to be breaking to high Cam as I rotated the hub/shaft with the 22mm wrench. Compared to the IP on the bench, visually no difference.

So, I am of the opinion the IP is out of time internally 180 degrees or doesn't make enough pressure to break the injectors. Since there's no smoke while attempting to start the engine, I'm leaning toward lack of pressure being the problem.

Click to expand...

Put a known good IP on it. It sounds like your trying to do a cheap job out of an act of kindness. That's good, but a solid repair is just as valuable. I'd tell him the IP is junk and see if he 'd pony up for a known good pump. See if the previous rebuilder has the one your messing with under warranty. But I forgot the rebuilders don't cover the warranty if the pump been installed. Andy I've been burnt several times on rebuilt IPs. One was the Diesel Store, it works but not like it should, low pressure. I think they cleaned a core and put new seals in it, and that's all. Looks nice, but just doesn't do the job. I've got seal kits here at home with the certified Bosch rebuilder tags in the boxes with them. I could make a killing on e-bay selling rebuilt pumps by just attaching the certified Bosch tags to them. I don't I'm honest that's why I get burnt not others.

Second thought did you check the electrical, pig tail and harness? I had an experience once were the pig tail was loose. I spent an hour trouble shooting to find out it wasn't completely plugged in.

Yes, I'm being a nice guy about this ordeal!

Yep, I did check the electrical connection. It was okay! I unplugged, inspected and reconnected it.

Yeah, tomorrow I will install my IP so the guy will have his car to drive until the rebuilder makes good on the IP.

And, although I had never heard anything negative about this rebuilder, a friend of mine told me tonight it took him almost six months to resolve an issue with them with the IP for his farm tractor about two years ago................ so, that may be what I'm dealing with here!

AndyBees said:

Yes, I'm being a nice guy about this ordeal!

Yep, I did check the electrical connection. It was okay! I unplugged, inspected and reconnected it.

Yeah, tomorrow I will install my IP so the guy will have his car to drive until the rebuilder makes good on the IP.

And, although I had never heard anything negative about this rebuilder, a friend of mine told me tonight it took him almost six months to resolve an issue with them with the IP for his farm tractor about two years ago................ so, that may be what I'm dealing with here!

Click to expand...

I wish you luck, I've been burnt a couple of times buying rebuilt pumps. But what can you do? I'm at the point of where do I buy an IP. Good luck.

A thought just hit me! Could this be the 109 Relay by coincidence? Of course, what ever allows the IP to punch fuel to the injectors is doing so because during bleeding they do put out considerable amount of fuel!

The engine should fire if it's getting fuel and air. The way you explained it wasn't. Could be in the ECM management. The 109 could be the culprit. This is interesting did you check ASV? Is the EGR valve open? Just throwing out some ideas. But if the pump shaft is not correct it's getting fuel at the wrong time. Any reason for a no start is possible. Keep us posted.

Finally! Got it started...........

I need to do a bunch tool cleaning, etc., and will come back with a full report later tonight!

Hint: It was not the 109 Relay!

Auto tranny vs manual tranny ... timing issues!

Okay, those of you who know me understand that I provide too much info when posting.. so, I'll make this as short as possible.

First .. if you didn't read the Initial Post closely, go back and do it! (point is, I've been working "after" someone else....... their mess).

Let it be known, I've done a number of TB jobs on ALH engines and gassers of the era, both automatics and 5-speeds. So, with that in mind, read on!

Simply put, there are "two" marks on the automatic torque converter which are exactly alike. When I set-up the timing sequence with the IP pin in place, cam plate in place, etc., the torque converter timing mark was in the center of the rectangle hole of the transmission bell housing (automatic). Well, based on the Bentley (which has sketchy info at best on the auto tranny), the lower edge of that timing mark aligned with the lower edge of the hole is TDC....... pretty simple.

Well, in the beginning, when I hit the starter (before I did anything to the engine), I did not like the sound of it as it spin over. And, as I rotated the engine by hand to set-up for timing, it just didn't seem right....... gut feeling that I should have followed through before going any farther... (would have saved a lot of work)

So, this afternoon, a story in of itself, I discovered another timing mark exactly like the one I was working with. However, it was the correct timing mark. Using the mark that I first saw in the window caused the Cam to be slow in time ......... you guessed it! The pistons were kissing the exhaust valves. Remember, pistons chase exhaust valves as they close... slow Cam timing can result in a kiss of the exhaust valves by the pistons. Most likely any damage was done before the car was brought to me.

Anyway, I set the timing correctly and the engine fired up almost immediately (with my IP on it, yep, I did change them). So, late this evening I switched the IPs and set the timing per spec using VCDS. Engine starts and idles fine, etc.

But, we all know what the engine needs now!

End of story ................ other than, if there was a Guru that read my Thread and didn't bother to mention the confusion that can come with an auto tranny, shame on you!

All is well that ends well. I gotta do my TB with my auto as well. UGH. Clutch went out on my Rabbit today. UGH.

I'm hurting. I'm ready to sell the D&^n thing.