NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

pleopard

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2006
Location
Calgary, Alberta
TDI
2010 Jetta TDI
As this thread gets longer, we drift away from the thing that is most important here. It us not the fact that the HPFP can fail, all compnonts can fail. It is not the frequency of failure -- honestly on the scale of mechanical reliability it isn't all that bad.

It is the fact that the design of the fueling system is such that the failure necessitates its complete replacement, to the tune of $8,000 +.

It is unreasonable to think this is okay, especially for a $26,000 "family" vehicle.

I love my JSW. For well under thirty grand it is a bargain. For $34,000 or $42,000, not so much. I shouldn't have to start an escrow account just to make sure my car can continue to run.

P.

Sent from my Sensation using Tapatalk
Absolutely. We must all remain fully aware of this.
 

Absolute Diesel

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2010
Location
USA
TDI
2010 Jetta TDI DSG (SOLD)
To answer a few questions earlier: The dealer had no explanation for the failure. The fuel looked fine and the repair was covered under warranty. The fuel was from PA which has a B5 mandate. I always fuel from one of 3 stations in the area unless on a road trip out town. This failure occurred on a tank from one of my usual stations. Car was driven gently except 1 time driving someone to the ER.

Yeah I guess I could've had contaminated fuel a some point. It wasn't the final tank though.

The pump design sucks - I think we can all agree on that. A bad tank of diesel here or there should not cause a catastrophic failure. At worst it should just ruin my pump and not the whole fuel system. It's the 8K repair bill that is unacceptable, not the failure itself.

While mulling over the decision of keep vs. sell, I was given a company car which made the decision easy. When I have to return this company car I'd love to come back to TDI's if this problem is sorted out. loved the car, but this pump design is BS.
 

Softrockrenegade

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2011
Location
Howellbama, NJ
TDI
None...2011 Golf DSG (replaced by VW W/) 2013 Passat SE 6M(bought back) Current 2017 sportwagen TSI 4Motion.
Nobody is sure what will save the pump !!! Nobody is sure if this really is a problem beyond a few bad pumps ... All we know is the collateral damage is huge !
 

Softrockrenegade

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2011
Location
Howellbama, NJ
TDI
None...2011 Golf DSG (replaced by VW W/) 2013 Passat SE 6M(bought back) Current 2017 sportwagen TSI 4Motion.
Excuse this question from a diesel noob , but if any other manufactures common rail HPFP were to fail are there provisions to prevent contaminants to the rail and injectors ? Everyone keeps saying poor design but how much does the flow path differ in our CR TDI's from any other non failing CR fuel system ?
 
Last edited:

tditom

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 5, 2001
Location
Jackson, MI
TDI
formerly: 2001 Golf GL, '97 Passat (RIP) '98 NB, '05 B5 sedan
I agree with DPM above where he posted that all the designs would spread the shrapnel thoughout the system. The design issue is covered in depth with the threads by dwiesel, eddif, and oilhammer covering the root cause of the failures. I think we've seen enough of these failures now to conclude that they aren't all caused by substandard lubricity. This leads me to conclude that the design itself is weak.
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
I agree with DPM above where he posted that all the designs would spread the shrapnel thoughout the system. The design issue is covered in depth with the threads by dwiesel, eddif, and oilhammer covering the root cause of the failures. I think we've seen enough of these failures now to conclude that they aren't all caused by substandard lubricity. This leads me to conclude that the design itself is weak.
I agree with you. After all if the failures were only related to poor fuel, then we would all be on at least our second pump, maybe third or fourth.
 

darrelld

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2007
Location
North Texas
TDI
2014 Tesla Model S85, 2017 Chevy Bolt
That is referring to gasoline HPFP failures. Primarily the 335i, if memory serves.
I know, but all the defective pumps were made by Bosch. If you read toward the end of the post it appears BMW switched to Continental HPFP designs and was retrofitting failed pumps with the new Continental design.

VW appears to be following a similar tract with changing pump manufacturers at least according to the NHTSA inquires with some Blue Motion models. Have yet to see any retrofits from VW.
 
Last edited:

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
Then the question becomes, will VW replace all the Bosch pumps on a recall or only replace them under double secret warranty after one fails.
 

Sharp_Cheddar

Active member
Joined
Feb 21, 2012
Location
Virginia Beach, Virginia
TDI
2012 Golf TDI 4DR 6MT
Then the question becomes, will VW replace all the Bosch pumps on a recall or only replace them under double secret warranty after one fails.
IMO, if it ever comes down to that, it depends which one would cost VW less. And it seems to me it would make more business sense to go with the second option. Option one would would require a lot of parts cost, labor cost, and would certainly give the VW TDI a black mark in the press, which could hamper sales.
 

Sharp_Cheddar

Active member
Joined
Feb 21, 2012
Location
Virginia Beach, Virginia
TDI
2012 Golf TDI 4DR 6MT
Although, if VW can get to the HPFP before it fails, then I'd assume a complete fuel system overhaul wouldn't be required. Since there have been many cases of this part failing, I'd assume that there's a potential for every pump out there to fail. I guess VW would need to decide if having peace of mind is worth the hassle related with a recall.
 

tytek

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2010
Location
Cincinnati, OH
TDI
2010 JSW TDI 6M
With regards to the BMW gasoline HPFP in cars with N54 motors, the design of the pump was faulty (due to US fuel). After a while, BMW admitted to it and was replacing failed units with the same design new units, as they did not have a new design available yet. Once they redesigned the HPFP, they started replacing failed units with the new pumps.

On top of that, every BMW 335 you buy, comes with 100k miles free HPFP replacement warranty that you get in writing, as a separate document. BMW figured that it would be cheaper to pay for replacements of units that fail (not all fail, apparently), than to have a full-on recall on these pumps.

Will VW do the same? Who knows. Will resale value of CR TDIs drop once this whole things becomes common knowledge? Probably. I for one won't care, as I just sold my '10 JSW TDI with 35k miles for $20k. After having non-start issues, engine bucking and cutting out and over-the-crest hiccups, I had enough and cut my losses early. Got a turbo Subaru instead. Not as frugal as the TDI, but a lot more fun and no known serious issues...
 
Last edited:

darrelld

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2007
Location
North Texas
TDI
2014 Tesla Model S85, 2017 Chevy Bolt
With regards to the BMW gasoline HPFP in cars with N54 motors, the design of the pump was faulty (due to US fuel). After a while, BMW admitted to it and was replacing failed units with the same design new units, as they did not have a new design available yet. Once they redesigned the HPFP, they started replacing failed units with the new pumps.

On top of that, every BMW 335 you buy, comes with 100k miles free HPFP replacement warranty that you get in writing, as a separate document. BMW figured that it would be cheaper to pay for replacements of units that fail (not all fail, apparently), than to have a full-on recall on these pumps.

Will VW do the same? Who knows. Will resale value of CR TDIs drop once this whole things becomes common knowledge? Probably. I for one won't care, as I just sold my '10 JSW TDI with 35k miles for $20k. After having non-start issues, engine bucking and cutting out and over-the-crest hiccups, I had enough and cut my losses early. Got a turbo Subaru instead. Not as frugal as the TDI, but a lot more fun and no known serious issues...
Subaru s have issues too, I own a 2010 Outback 3.6R that has serious vibration problems at highway speed that a number of TSBs have failed to address. Turbo Subaru s have known oil starvation issues in the 2007+ model range.
 

tytek

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2010
Location
Cincinnati, OH
TDI
2010 JSW TDI 6M
Subaru s have issues too, I own a 2010 Outback 3.6R that has serious vibration problems at highway speed that a number of TSBs have failed to address. Turbo Subaru s have known oil starvation issues in the 2007+ model range.
Not to go off topic here. But my car does not have the 'shimmy' issue. Turbo oil starvation was due to plugged banjo oil bolt passages. Not a problem on VF54 cars. No SERIOUS issues.

Plus, most of those issues I can address myself and they won't cost me $8k+ worst case scenario. I will take my chances with a '11 LGT. I owned a few Subarus in the past and they are simple to work on. Replacements motors are cheap too. So are the take-off turbos, etc.

Good luck with your TDIs. They are great cars, no doubt. Just not for me at this time.
 

ZiggyTheHamster

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2009
Location
Richmond, CA
TDI
2009 VW Jetta TDI
Someone asked me to get the model number from the new pump. It takes a mirror and you have to read updide down and backward so here is the info on the bottom of the pum taking into account the fore mentioned. I don't know which of this is the model number so here is everything off the bottome of the pump as it appears on the ID tag:

BOSCH 515
0445 010 508
CR/CP4S1/R35/20
03L 130 7755A
09091111
BPY070757
Made in Czech Republic
Can you clarify some things for me (I keep a spreadsheet of the TDI Club pumps)? Normally, a pump will say "BPT ####" and either have numbers under it or not. Both are always four digits. In your case, you have "BPY 070757" - should it be something like "BPT 0757" or is it really as you wrote? Also, did you notice any green or yellow dots near the label?
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
IMO, if it ever comes down to that, it depends which one would cost VW less. And it seems to me it would make more business sense to go with the second option. Option one would would require a lot of parts cost, labor cost, and would certainly give the VW TDI a black mark in the press, which could hamper sales.
Costs of rebuilding the engine of $6000 - $8000 (based on numbers posted within this thread) for 1% of the diesels sold vs (WAG) $500 for a new/redesigned HPFP for the remaining 99%. At 100,000 vehicles, that would equate to a cost of $6 million versus roughly $50 million. I know which one the accountants would pick.

WOW! A HUNDRED THOUSAND miles!! (rolleyes):rolleyes:
Is that 100K warranty on the replacement pump or on the total miles of the car? Could be a huge difference in the life and resale of the car.
 

scdevon

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2011
Location
USA
TDI
None
Then the question becomes, will VW replace all the Bosch pumps on a recall...............
You don't know German car companies very well, do you? VW will NEVER proactively replace the questionable pumps. At best, they will assist people if and when their pump fails.

This pump design is actually OK. (not great, but ok). A small percentage of early pumps failed without mis-fueling because the pumps were bad right out of the box due to poor quality control, bad coating process and shabby pump housing metallurgy.
People are mis-fueling these cars with gasoline more than they are admitting. C.R. cars are driven by soccer moms (and dads:rolleyes:) who aren't necessarily Diesel heads. Some cars are accidently mis-fueled due to gasoline contaminated diesel being dispensed from diesel retail pumps. (It's insane not to run a top tier lubricity additive) Even slight gasoline contamination (common) can really slash the wear scar rating of already questionable 520um rated fuel.
I suspect that the newest pump revisions allow for even moderate short term gasoline and water contamination without fatal consequences. Our fuel is SHYTE here in the U.S. compared with other civilized countries (i'm not just talking about the wear scar rating) That's the real problem.
 

tditom

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 5, 2001
Location
Jackson, MI
TDI
formerly: 2001 Golf GL, '97 Passat (RIP) '98 NB, '05 B5 sedan
...every BMW 335 you buy, comes with 100k miles free HPFP replacement warranty that you get in writing, as a separate document. ...
Does this pertain only to the gassers, or diesels as well? I've never heard of it in any BMW diesel discussion. Do you have a link?

Edit: Gasser only. Found this-
https://wiki.bentleypublishers.com/...uel+Pump+for+Turbo+vehicles+-+BMW+335i,+335xi

BMW Technical Bulletin SI B 13 03 09

Date: April 2009
Subject: BMW emissions warranty of the High Pressure Fuel Pump (HDP) has been extended from 4 years or 50,000 miles to 10 years or 120,000 miles, whichever comes first.
 
Last edited:

tditom

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 5, 2001
Location
Jackson, MI
TDI
formerly: 2001 Golf GL, '97 Passat (RIP) '98 NB, '05 B5 sedan
You don't know German car companies very well, do you? VW will NEVER proactively replace the questionable pumps. At best, they will assist people if and when their pump fails. ...
This has nothing to do with it being a German company. Show me any company that will proactively replace systems on all vehicles when the repair is in the $thousands and I will show you a company that is out of business!
If there had been deaths/serious injuries caused by the failure, then it would be a different matter.
 

Second Turbo

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2002
Location
Kansas, USA
TDI
2003 ALH Wagon, 373K, 2nd 01M
Crystal ball valve

kjclow: > Could be a huge difference in the life and resale of the car.

A matched pair of historical advantages to TDI was extended value:
a. you could run one forever, or
b. you could recover a lot of the investment due to high resale value

IF VW doesn't take care of the post-warranty CR customers re: HPFP, resale values are going to tank, as it becomes widely understood that these things can suffer total economic self destruction with no notice. Think: Chevy Vega

I'm at 252,000 miles on the PD, original drive train (but the infamous auto transmission needs work). I have no confidence that if I replace this car with a CR that:
a. it will make it to 250K without an HPFP implosion, or
b. it will have a reasonable resale value if sold sooner

CR resale values are holding for the time being, but unless VW comes up with a satisfactory resolution to the HPFP problem, they are not going to stay up.
______
The current plan is to get a reman tran for the PD.
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
IF VW doesn't take care of the post-warranty CR customers re: HPFP, resale values are going to tank, as it becomes widely understood that these things can suffer total economic self destruction with no notice. Think: Chevy Vega

CR resale values are holding for the time being, but unless VW comes up with a satisfactory resolution to the HPFP problem, they are not going to stay up.
The above secnarios are enirely dependent on how widely publicized the failures are. At a current failure rate of less than 1%, it is hard to imagine that would tank the resale of the whole line. Especially if the failures are related to a specific lot or time frame of manufacturing of the HPFP.
 

MPBsr

Veteran Member
Joined
May 31, 2009
Location
NJ
TDI
2009 TDI....Traded in
Costs of rebuilding the engine of $6000 - $8000 (based on numbers posted within this thread) for 1% of the diesels sold vs (WAG) $500 for a new/redesigned HPFP for the remaining 99%. At 100,000 vehicles, that would equate to a cost of $6 million versus roughly $50 million. I know which one the accountants would pick.
...and that's the reason why you'll never see a recall.
 

scdevon

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2011
Location
USA
TDI
None
If there had been deaths/serious injuries caused by the failure, then it would be a different matter.

A HPFP failure is dangerous to your wallet, but that's about it. People are blowing the "it's dangerous" argument way out of proportion.

If a .50 cent sun visor retaining clip failed on their VW, they'd pull the "it's dangerous" argument, too.
You know.................because the sun visor clip could "suddenly fail" and distract them while they're driving and "blind them". :rolleyes:
 
Top