VW tdi jetta high pressure fuel pump problem

I'm not making excuses for VW, nor am I putting any spin on this (at least not intentionally). I'm just reporting my observations. The number of CR TDIs on the road is increasing every day, yet, the failure rate seems to have dropped off, or, at least isn't increasing. That tells me something.

My feeling personally is I will wait it out and see what happens over the coming year or so. If I knew a year ago what I know now I probably wouldn't have bought my car, but what is done is done. In the mean time I keep my fuel receipts and use additives with every tank and have done so since the very first tank from the dealer. If mine fails it isn't because of a lack of lubricity.

If the frequency of these failures doesn't drop to near zero over the coming year or so and If VW doesn't do a recall or extended warranty program like they did with the DSG then I won't keep my car past its warranty. Not that I think the odds are high that it will happen to me but just because I don't want to have to deal with it if it does happen. My guess is they will fix it and with a new HPFP design that is more robust, but if I am wrong I won't risk $9000 in out of warranty repairs over it.

FWIW I happen to believe that a great number of the failures are probably due to fuel contamination issues...whether caused by user error or the fuel bought was crap I cannot say. That's also not to say VW isn't at least partially to blame for designing a system with so little margin of error that a refueling mistake could cost $9000...that's just BAD DESIGN.

Corrections . .

740GLE said:

The Popular Mechanics reporters had their system replaced
no questions asked back in sometime 2008.

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Popular Mechanics reporter, editor Ben Stewart, was the person driving that car daily!

Of course, this car was repaired promptly with no questions asked, BECAUSE this TDI still belonged
to VW of A. It was VWs vehicle 'on loan' to PM magazine for an extended one year 'test'.

BTW, that test-vehicle was repaired at Santa Monica VW sometime in the early summer
of 2009, not late 2008. I have saved the original hard copy magazine issue.
See:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/reviews/reliability-report/4315023?series=77

Read the Second Report dated August 2009. (Not late 2008!)

This was my first knowledge of the HPFP problem. This was before Dwiesel had his problem.

When I spoke over the phone with Ben Stewart, he would not say much.
However, I got the feeling that he knew a great deal more than he was at liberty to say!

One thing Stewart did tell me was that VW had instructed him to drive down to Playa del Rey
(A yacht harbor South of Santa Monica) and buy some Biodiesel and use it!

That tells me that VW already, by the early summer of 2009, knew that there was indeed
a 'problem' and that the 'problem' was indeed being caused by a 'LACK of LUBRICITY'!

nhdoc said:

The number of CR TDIs on the road is increasing every day, yet, the failure rate
seems to have dropped off, or, at least isn't increasing. That tells me something.

FWIW I happen to believe that a great number of the failures are probably due to fuel contamination issues . . . whether caused by user error or the fuel bought was crap I cannot say. That's also not to say VW isn't at least partially to blame for designing a system with so little margin of error that a refueling mistake could cost $9000 . . . that's just BAD DESIGN.

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I know of one dealership that is currently working on their eighth HPFP failure.
It seems like every time I turn around, I hear that there is another one being repaired.
This is at only one agency. That is not 'the failure rate seems to have dropped off'.

This HPFP problem seems to be on the increase, and not declining as we hoped for!




D

...and the SA at my VW dealer swears they have not seen a single one (as of 12/30/10)...are they telling a lie or is it just probability?

The fuel in the respective PADD regions might be a factor?

No HPFP Failures at All

nhdoc said:

...and the SA at my VW dealer swears they have not seen a single one (as of 12/30/10) . . .
are they telling a lie or is it just probability?

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Something is not correct. You say 'S A'? As in your salesman?
Maybe if the owner or service manager were to say that . .

Perhaps the dealership is very small? Or they do not get a lot of 'back room' action.

Maybe you have better quality fuel back there?
And or, everyone knows the difference between gasoline and D2!

I wish we had the information as to exactly how many HPFP failures VW knows of!



D

SA=Service Advisor.

No HPFP Failures

El Dobro said:

SA=Service Advisor.

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Couldn't S A mean or stand for Sales Associate?

Either way, it doesn't matter. We get the idea.
That dealership is stating that they have not seen ANY HPFP failures.



D

The service advisor at my dealer never heard anything about the HPFP problems either, but when I asked one of the parts guys, he knew about them.

Sorry, in my case SA = Service Adviser. I'd never ask a salesman anything. Since the SA writes up the repairs and later deals with the paperwork most of the time they know what's going on. At my dealership they claim there have been ZERO HPFP failures.

I know people here love to gnash their teeth and worry but I can't waste the effort worrying. I own the car and love it, and if I let worrying about what might happen to it destroy the fun of owning it then "the terrorists have won".

Like I said, I will monitor it and decide when my warranty expires what I want to do.

I just went in for my 2-year maintenance service; the dealer had no problems letting me look for metal specks as they opened up the fuel filter housing to replace the filter. No denial on their part that pumps failures are occurring. So I did not see any metal shavings or specks at least what I could see with the necked eye, a relief!

Now I am in a wait and see mode. Keep the car at least while it is still under warranty. If that is 5 years 60000 miles for the pump and all other related fuel components then I have a while to enjoy the car. It still concerns me that I could get stuck with a $10000 repair if denied warranty for some excuse.

For the OP another angle to this story would seem to be how much profit the dealer and VW makes if they do a repair and deny a warranty claim. If the repair is billed at $10000 how much does it really cost VW? Based on a WAG estimate that the part cost for VW is less than $4000, add the cost to pay for the mechanics labor ~$800 (not total shop dollars). Then the profit for the repair could be over $5000 dollars between VW and the dealer.

Anyway, hope and pray for the best, use B5, do more frequent fuel filter changes with Vag-com to prime the system, don’t run the tank to near empty, be sure to buy fuel at busy stations maybe sample the fuel before it goes in the tank. Did I forget something? Just enjoy the car, might as well.

Maine12 said:

....Now I am in a wait and see mode. Keep the car at least while it is still under warranty. If that is 5 years 60000 miles for the pump and all other related fuel components then I have a while to enjoy the car. It still concerns me that I could get stuck with a $10000 repair if denied warranty for some excuse.

For the OP another angle to this story would seem to be how much profit the dealer and VW makes if they do a repair and deny a warranty claim. If the repair is billed at $10000 how much does it really cost VW? Based on a WAG estimate that the part cost for VW is less than $4000, add the cost to pay for the mechanics labor ~$800 (not total shop dollars). Then the profit for the repair could be over $5000 dollars between VW and the dealer...

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I checked prices a few months ago on the parts replaced by the dealer for a HPFP failure. The MSRP is about $6800 but one can buy them online for about $3900. So my guess is the dealer cost is below $3000. IIRC, several people have reported the dealer charges are now closer to $6000 than $10000. So, gross profit is probably closer to $3000. Remember businesses including dealers have overheads so the net profit is a lot less. Really, I don't think the profit the dealer makes denying a warranty claim is an issue worthy of ABC news.

Second, IMHO, the issue is not VW denying warranty for profit but that there appears to be a fundemental design flaw (which is extremely expensive for the customer to fix) and maybe a safety issue (NHTSA is investigating the saftey aspect now).

Lastly, my thinking several months ago was much like yours and nhdoc's as to what to do as I approach 60k miles and my warranty runs out. But, I am not as concerned now as I was then about an HPFP failure.

IMHO, of the $3900 in parts that the dealer replaces for an HPFP failure, $2600 are for parts that must be replaced and $1300 are for parts that may be able to be cleaned and flushed like the fuel tank ($625), filter canister ($190) and pipes. Of course, the dealer and VW will replace everything to mitigate potential future liability. The actual replacement of the parts other than the fuel tank does not appear overly complicated.

So, my thinking now is leaning towards keeping the car past 60k miles (still monitoring for metal specks). Also, dweisel has a procedure for inspecting the cam and roller of the HPFP without removing the HPFP from the engine. So even if my inspections do not catch a catastrophic HPFP failure before it happens, I will do the work myself for less than $3000. If through inspections, I can determine that I should replace the HPFP, I can replace just the HPFP for less than $1000.

nhdoc said:

...and the SA at my VW dealer swears they have not seen a single one (as of 12/30/10)...are they telling a lie or is it just probability?

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Well if you've done any reading on here you know about the DMF failures I'm sure. It's amazing how the 3 local dealers in my area didn't have a single DMF failure either.

My 2010 TDI is fantastic, one of the better cars I've owned.

Unfortunately, I too will sell my car after the warranty is expired. I can't live in fear of a $10,000 expense on a critical component that has a somewhat checked history. IFFFF VW were to offer an extended warranty AND a replacement (aka upgraded FP) that would go a HUGE way in changing my mind.

What would motivate VW to do anything other then the absolute minimum?

ddhd said:

My 2010 TDI is fantastic, one of the better cars I've owned.

Unfortunately, I too will sell my car after the warranty is expired. I can't live in fear of a $10,000 expense on a critical component that has a somewhat checked history. IFFFF VW were to offer an extended warranty AND a replacement (aka upgraded FP) that would go a HUGE way in changing my mind.

What would motivate VW to do anything other then the absolute minimum?

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Unfortunately right now I am in the exact same state of mind as you. My car runs great...Love the mileage, but I will not own it after warranty is up.

ddhd said:

What would motivate VW to do anything other then the absolute minimum?

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ANSWER: When more and more people think like you are currently thinking along with more people doing their research and discovering that there is an issue along with being appalled by how some owners were treated by VW.

No need for me to specify that I am doing everything I possibly can to assist in forcing a resolution despite some here who think I should have a Neville Chamberlain type attitude. Know whadda mean? Later!

Maine12 said:

Is all the secondary damage covered after 36000 miles, such as the CR, injectors, fuel lines ,tank ect. If so great, If not your still looking at a hefty repair bill.

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If a part that is under warranty fails then all other parts that it damages are covered to and labor.

For those who asked, here's Chris Cuomo's email address:
Chris.Cuomo@abc.com

I wanted to be sure Chris was OK with giving out his email address before I posted it here. Later!

here issome helpful info on the hpfp

http://www.bosch.us/content/language1/html/2338.htm

The above link is the corporate officers of Bosch corporation, the people who make our high pressure fuel pump

Mr. Bernd Boisten is the Reginal mgr of diesel systems in North America

lcjjm4 said:

http://www.bosch.us/content/language1/html/2338.htm

The above link is the corporate officers of Bosch corporation, the people who make our high pressure fuel pump

Mr. Bernd Boisten is the Reginal mgr of diesel systems in North America

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Because the corporate officers, including Mr. Boisten, did all of the engineering for the pumps in our cars.

There are thousands of people that work at BOSCH worldwide. If you want to blame a person, blame the engineers that designed our specific pump, or the manufacturing employees that may have introduced faults. Or, since the pump is specifically designed for this application, maybe VW implemented it incorrectly.

Oh, also, all of the HPFPs are made in Germany...

ZiggyTheHamster said:

Because the corporate officers, including Mr. Boisten, did all of the engineering for the pumps in our cars.

There are thousands of people that work at BOSCH worldwide. If you want to blame a person, blame the engineers that designed our specific pump, or the manufacturing employees that may have introduced faults. Or, since the pump is specifically designed for this application, maybe VW implemented it incorrectly.

Oh, also, all of the HPFPs are made in Germany...

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Wow missed the point by a long shot. I'm sure the point of the posting was to get people to email them about their issues not blame

Harvieux said:

For those who asked, here's Chris Cuomo's email address:
Chris.Cuomo@abc.com

I wanted to be sure Chris was OK with giving out his email address before I posted it here. Later!

Click to expand...

Thanks!

TwoTone said:

Wow missed the point by a long shot. I'm sure the point of the posting was to get people to email them about their issues not blame

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Except at this point, only a few people (dweisel, oilhammer, others that I've left out) have had enough experience with the actual pump, its internals, and how the pump has failed to be able to say something intelligent to BOSCH. And directing an e-mail or letter to an executive isn't going to get anything addressed. They're too busy sleeping in money to personally respond to anything - their secretary will send you the same template "Thank you for your concern, but BOSCH has top engineers that spend years designing these things and while there are failures they represent a very small number of products and blah blah blah blah" that they tell everyone that sends them a letter about a product failure.

My reply to lcjjm4 was intended to get them to stop cross-posting that link. All of that person's posts are related to HPFP failures in some regard, and the majority of them are rage towards BOSCH. I'm not sure if they just want to spread FUD, if they were affected by a failure, or what... I do know they think the HPFP is plastic according to other posts they've made...

I'm just saying it's unhelpful. If you want to spread helpful knowledge, the best thing you can do is chant lubricity, lubricity, lubricity.

ZiggyTheHamster said:

Except at this point, only a few people (dweisel, oilhammer, others that I've left out) have had enough experience with the actual pump, its internals, and how the pump has failed to be able to say something intelligent to BOSCH. And directing an e-mail or letter to an executive isn't going to get anything addressed. They're too busy sleeping in money to personally respond to anything - their secretary will send you the same template "Thank you for your concern, but BOSCH has top engineers that spend years designing these things and while there are failures they represent a very small number of products and blah blah blah blah" that they tell everyone that sends them a letter about a product failure.

My reply to lcjjm4 was intended to get them to stop cross-posting that link. All of that person's posts are related to HPFP failures in some regard, and the majority of them are rage towards BOSCH. I'm not sure if they just want to spread FUD, if they were affected by a failure, or what... I do know they think the HPFP is plastic according to other posts they've made...

I'm just saying it's unhelpful. If you want to spread helpful knowledge, the best thing you can do is chant lubricity, lubricity, lubricity.

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Have I missed out on the announcement that VW or Bosch has admitted lubricity is the actual issue as opposed to fuel contamination or mis-fueling and therefore everyone should now add some sort of VW/Bosch sanctioned lubricity enhancement to each and every tank of fuel?

By golly geesh, if I woulda known that, I'd go out and purchase a lot full of CR TDIs for inventory and my worries about selling ticking time bombs to unsuspecting customers would all of a sudden vanish, eh?

Better yet, I start selling these and tell each and every customer they must add this approved, factory sanctioned lubricity enhancer to each and every tank however, after 60K miles, you are on your own regarding a possible $6K-$10K hiccup and therefore I will never, ever hear a negative comment of "how could you have" from anyone here on this venue when one or more of these prospective customer's come barreling in posting their nightmare in the HPFP failures thread, right? I digress! Later!

Harvieux, of course there is a problem with the pump itself if one of its failure modes is "grenade and destroy the entire fuel system". No, there's not an approved lubricity additive that I'm aware of, but the majority of people are only going to be able to do two things. One, use a lubricity additive, or two, not buy a CR TDI.

If you contact BOSCH to complain about their possibly under-engineered pumps as used in the VW CR TDI application -- especially if you contact an executive -- they aren't going to be helpful. That's all I'm trying to get across. Someone who actually has taken apart the pump and has actual knowledge on what is wrong with it and possible solutions should write a letter to BOSCH and tell them that their pumps have issues and here's what they are - and then they'd get a better response.

A letter to a BOSCH executive complaining about their "plastic" HPFPs used on VW CR TDIs is going to result in a template letter that says that failure rates are low and they put years of work into figuring this stuff out and so on.

Was contacting their executive supposed to get them to send a magical new pump with the flaw fixed?

For what it is worth (my 2 cents).....contacting Bosch about user-perceived (or experienced) problems with that pump is a complete waste of your time. Bosch sells the pumps to customers (ie, VW, others) and guarantees an established performance criteria based on supplier in-house testing. VW accepts the pump and installs it and warranties it in their standard new car warranty.

Bosch will do nothing to remedy failed pumps unless forced by VW and its other customers. And the customers better have a good pile of evidence.

VW, on the other hand, is doing what all car manufacturers do when failures like this happen...they stick their head in the sand until it either becomes a "verified" safety issue or so many pumps go south that they have to do an upgrade or, heaven forbid, a recall. Note that VW silently SOLD an upgraded balance shaft kit for the B5.5 Passat TDI's. No recall, no admission of bad engineering.

There may very well be a revised pump in VW's bag of tricks, but it is a well kept secret, for sure. But don't think going after Bosch as an end user of a VW car is going to get you anywhere.

@aja8888: That's exactly what I'm trying to say. Plus also the BOSCH executives aren't going to help either...

Thanks for saying it better than me.

The Gospel Truth

aja8888 said:

For what it is worth (my 2 cents).....contacting Bosch about user-perceived (or experienced) problems with that pump is a complete waste of your time.
Bosch sells the pumps to customers (ie, VW, others) and guarantees an established performance criteria
based on supplier in-house testing. VW accepts the pump and installs it and warranties
it in their standard new car warranty.

Bosch will do nothing to remedy failed pumps unless forced by VW and its other customers.
And the customers better have a good pile of evidence.

VW, on the other hand, is doing what all car manufacturers do when failures like this
happen...they stick their head in the sand until it either becomes a "verified" safety
issue or so many pumps go south that they have to do an upgrade or, heaven forbid,
a recall. Note that VW silently SOLD an upgraded balance shaft kit for the
B5.5 Passat TDI's. No recall, no admission of bad engineering.

There may very well be a revised pump in VW's bag of tricks, but it is a
well kept secret, for sure. But don't think going after Bosch as an
end user of a VW car is going to get you anywhere.

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Excellent Post old Boy! It is true. Wish it were not.

Until someone puts a pistol to VWs head, nothing will be ever be done, period.

So 'keep pouring in the additives' and hang on and hope for the best.



D

ZiggyTheHamster said:

@aja8888: That's exactly what I'm trying to say. Plus also the BOSCH executives aren't going to help either...
Thanks for saying it better than me.

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The Bosch executives won't ever see the letters you send. All their mail is screened, like other execs. It's a matter of policy and keeps them focused on the big picture.

Derrel H Green said:

So 'keep pouring in the additives' and hang on and hope for the best.

D

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Listen to Derrel if you have one of these cars..he is right on!

(Opti Lube XPD or good biodiesel)

I have a 2010 Jetta TDI sedan with about 32K on it. It's just about a year old. These posts and others I've read scare the blip out of me. So...... I sent VW Customer "Care" an email and asked them what VW's current position was relative to the HPFP issue. Here is VW's "Corporate Line". Note the delightful suggestion from the CS rep as to how I can regain my "peace of mind" on this issue.

Here it is:

Thank you for contacting Volkswagen regarding your concerns about the high performance fuel pump (HPFP) in your Turbocharged Direct-injection Jetta (TDI).

At this time, there is no open campaign regarding the HPFP in any of our TDI vehicles. Some customers have experienced concerns with the fuel pump that have been found to be related to contaminated diesel fuel after a thorough investigation. We encourage our customers to use high quality Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel fuel from large chains to limit the chance of contamination.

Please know Volkswagen maintains records of all concerns brought to our attention by customers and dealerships. When a trend is noticed, it is heavily researched to determine if a campaign or warranty extension should be created. Volkswagen continually strives to exceed customer expectations with vehicles and products, and seeks to bring satisfaction on every level.

Volkswagen stands behind your car with our warranties, and we address each situation on a case-by-case basis. The HPFP in your Jetta is covered for manufacturer’s shortcomings in workmanship and materials under the Powertrain Warranty for 5 years or 60,000 miles, whichever occurs first, from the original in service date of January 7, 2010. Repairs related to manufacturer’s shortcomings within the warranty period will be diagnosed and repaired under the terms of the warranty. I apologize; warranty terms do not cover the cost of replacing a part that is operating as designed. I am not able to cover replacement of the fuel pump at this time.

If you are concerned an issue may arise once your vehicle is outside of the New Vehicle Limited Warranty (NVLW), you are more than welcome to consult your local authorized Volkswagen dealer to discuss the many option you have with regard to(are extended service contracts or even trading your car in for a brand new Volkswagen vehicle.

If I may be of further assistance regarding this, or any other matter, please don’t hesitate to contact me again by e-mail at www.vw.com or through our Customer CARE Center at (800) 822-8987. If I am not available, one of my colleagues will be able to assist you. In addition, you will soon be receiving a Volkswagen Customer Care satisfaction survey. Please take a few moments to complete this. Your feedback is important for it will allow us to serve you more effectively in the future.