NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

danix

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None now. Former: 2011 335d, 2010 Jetta TDI, 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon. 99.5 Jetta TDI, 98 NB TDI, 3 different black 96 Passat TDI wagons.
So VW is damned if they don't do something and damned if they do.....
You sold your car. Now run along and take your bucket of FUD with you.
Bill
I'm pretty sure personal attacks were not allowed here, last I checked.
It's a relevant question - if those changes (including eliminating the aux pump) were done to prevent this issue, that's important. If VW knows that and is not retrofitting the earlier cars to save costs on a recall vs allowing their customers to stall out, that's also important.

There is no FUD here, other than the content of your post.
 

TDIMeister

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The NHSTA investigators also need to look into why VW changed the fuel system on the 2012 Passat tdi's. Why were those changes made?
I'm pretty sure personal attacks were not allowed here, last I checked.
It's a relevant question - if those changes (including eliminating the aux pump) were done to prevent this issue, that's important. If VW knows that and is not retrofitting the earlier cars to save costs on a recall vs allowing their customers to stall out, that's also important.

There is no FUD here, other than the content of your post.
From an engineering point of view, it is not hard to explain the changes to go from the piezo CR in 2009-2011 to solenoid in the 2012 Passat and the elimination of certain parts. Piezo offers faster response and actuation speeds than solenoid, although some FIE companies (Like Denso and Delphi) have claimed that the gap has closed. What is certain, however, is the solenoid is MUCH CHEAPER than piezo. With urea injection, VW must have decided that meeting emissions regulations could tolerate compromising any perceived performance shortcomings of the solenoid system while benefiting from lower costs to offset the more expensive aftertreatment system. Doing that and eliminating other components like the aux pump amount to nothing more than a mid-cycle cost-reduction exercise. Been there and done that!

I agree, let's lay off the personal attacks and I'll add irrational speculation to that too, please.
 

40X40

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No personal attack was intended at all. There have been countless threads about the HPFP and a near lynch mob mentality directed at VW all demanding that something be done.

It just isn't right to complain when they finally start to meet your demands, now is it?

If VW stops selling TDIs in north america,(and I am not suggesting that they will!) we all lose and that might just be the easiest out for them.... Let us observe more and speculate about/criticize the HPFP situation less.

Dweisel, I apologize for my unintended 'personal' attack, but why are you wasting time on an issue that you no longer have a personal stake in? It seems as if you have a score to settle with VW. There is a NTSB investigation ongoing, so we need to let that play out.

Peace,

Bill
 
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danix

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None now. Former: 2011 335d, 2010 Jetta TDI, 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon. 99.5 Jetta TDI, 98 NB TDI, 3 different black 96 Passat TDI wagons.
The score issue is relevant as well. Personally, I am incredibly disappointed with my 2010, and it very well may be my last VW. Because of this (and other issues), I changed brands.

If you've had the misfortunate of a blown HPFP and been stranded (like dweisel, I had it happen twice) you can understand the interest in seeing this issue fixed before it happens to others. We're not talking about a minor issue like a glovebox lid, or peeling trim. This is a real safety issue.

You know, until I owned one, I thought Harvieux was blowing things out of proportion, ranting on and on about this issue. He wasn't, and neither is dweisel.
 

GTIDan

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The score issue is relevant as well. Personally, I am incredibly disappointed with my 2010, and it very well may be my last VW. Because of this (and other issues), I changed brands.

If you've had the misfortunate of a blown HPFP and been stranded (like dweisel, I had it happen twice) you can understand the interest in seeing this issue fixed before it happens to others. We're not talking about a minor issue like a glovebox lid, or peeling trim. This is a real safety issue.

You know, until I owned one, I thought Harvieux was blowing things out of proportion, ranting on and on about this issue. He wasn't, and neither is dweisel.
For everyone of you out there that's complaining about your car I would guess there are thousands, yes thousand more........including me who are truly happy with their purchase. Is it perfect............what is?

As someone said herein VW is damned if they do something damned if they don't. You guys will never be happy no matter what brand you own.

For that reason I find myself coming to this forum less and less. Seldom anything useful shows up these days that I don't already know about.

Happy Holidays if your into that stuff. Cheers :)
 

53 willys

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this is funny because I have seen both sides now....just weeks ago I was laughing at all the doom and gloomers on TDI club wondering why they cant just drive their cars and enjoy them.......then I had my HPFP fail:mad:..not fuel contamination or miss fuels...just failed....
Now I fully understand why many are truly concerned...I figured it would never happen to my dub....:p
I feel this is a big issue.....people keep talking about 1% fail rate.....is that number based off tdiclub members failures and just people who happen to report it to the NHTSA??

my dealer had mine AND 1 other TDI in at the same time getting full fuel systems.....they were pretty up front with me...but when I pushed asking about how many failures they have had he kinda danced around the answer like he knew this was a on going problem and was not ready to spill the beans yet...




I would live with the tow bill and any other cost a HPFP failure would bring as long as I knew VW would cover the fuel system cost....its just plain stupid to have a $6k-$9K parts and labor bill for a IP failure.....:rolleyes:....shoot just the parts price is stupid!!! I'm a tech and would do all my own labor and I still am having a hard time justifying keeping the car long term...
 

eddif

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No personal attack was intended at all. There have been countless threads about the HPFP and a near lynch mob mentality directed at VW all demanding that something be done.

It just isn't right to complain when they finally start to meet your demands, now is it?

If VW stops selling TDIs in north america,(and I am not suggesting that they will!) we all lose and that might just be the easiest out for them.... Let us observe more and speculate about/criticize the HPFP situation less.

Dweisel, I apologize for my unintended 'personal' attack, but why are you wasting time on an issue that you no longer have a personal stake in? It seems as if you have a score to settle with VW. There is a NTSB investigation ongoing, so we need to let that play out.

Peace,

Bill
We sure need everyone working together. That includes VW.

I was labeled an alarmist on the camshaft issue with the TDI PDs. Now after several years the failure rate has climed to the point that more people just discuss what to do about the cam and follower problems.

Regretfully the list of failed TDI CRs continues to climb. I have also been involved with the CR HPFP evaluatiion and the intercooler water problem. I do not own a CR, but would love to help resolve the issues so that owning one would be possible. Dweisel loves diesels. His continued help in the issue has several things driving him and I suppose we (the broad VW club) share in wanting the issues resolved so we side sitters can fully participate in ownership. Till the time when problems are more resolved, we demonstrate our concern by trying to help resolve the problems. I hope we side-sitters (non- owners) can help without owning cars. Our motives are not just pure in wanting to help humanity, but we do desire to own a car that has the potential that the CRs show.

We actually need everyone to continue on the problem resolutions. We do need those who keep us wild eyed problem chasers in a more moderate gear. Got to love the scientific method (guess method). While involved in the guess mode we tend to drive some folks pretty wild. Sorry.

40X40 I just used your post to comment. You have done what you felt right in all this, and I appreciate your input. We all are a little different in our approaches and hopefully we eventually blend all this together.

One day we hopefully discuss the longevity of the TDIs and the development that happened. There have been several engines that had development issues (different brands) but finally wound up being respected for their longevity. One example is the 3800 Olds V6 engine. It was odd fire, then even fire, oil system changes, pushrod length changes, carburetor, throttle body injection, multi injector, etc, etc, etc. Highly respected as time went on.

Right now it is rough going through all this, but hopefully we will all be better as we continue down the road.

eddif
 

bhtooefr

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Bosch also claims that the solenoid injectors as used on the 2012 Passat (and many other European TDI engines) are at least as fast as the piezo injectors.

And, the pump is also used on newer production engines in other markets. I believe the pump parameters have to be tweaked to work properly with the solenoid injectors, as opposed to the piezo, hence having the different pump part number.
 

dubidoobs

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this is funny because I have seen both sides now....just weeks ago I was laughing at all the doom and gloomers on TDI club wondering why they cant just drive their cars and enjoy them.......then I had my HPFP fail:mad:..not fuel contamination or miss fuels...just failed....
Now I fully understand why many are truly concerned...I figured it would never happen to my dub....:p
I feel this is a big issue.....people keep talking about 1% fail rate.....is that number based off tdiclub members failures and just people who happen to report it to the NHTSA??

my dealer had mine AND 1 other TDI in at the same time getting full fuel systems.....they were pretty up front with me...but when I pushed asking about how many failures they have had he kinda danced around the answer like he knew this was a on going problem and was not ready to spill the beans yet...




I would live with the tow bill and any other cost a HPFP failure would bring as long as I knew VW would cover the fuel system cost....its just plain stupid to have a $6k-$9K parts and labor bill for a IP failure.....:rolleyes:....shoot just the parts price is stupid!!! I'm a tech and would do all my own labor and I still am having a hard time justifying keeping the car long term...
well this doesn't help my anxiety with HFPF issues...I'm at the dealer now and on my way to bring her in for the injector dampener recall, and the CEL comes on, with no messages on the info screen...heres to hoping that it's something stupid that I don't have to pay for...plus, 53 willys, if your HPFP failed at 47Kmi, I'm at 46K+ mi., it's making me wonder...I'll uodate after the SM speaks with me and anticipating a cockamanie answer...

:mad:
 

ZiggyTheHamster

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Have the VW 3.0 V6 TDI's had HPFP failures yet that we know off? Wasn't aware that these bigger engines use this exact same pump.
I know of a 2008 European-type pump in a Tiguan in Australia that failed, though it may have been contaminated fuel (owner's or station's fault unknown). Also I don't know the engine size in that case. I imagine that it's possible a 3.0L V6 failed.

I think, since there are far less 3.0L V6s on the road, that we aren't hearing as much. Also, I don't read that forum, so maybe they do have failures... and I don't know it?
 

DasTeknoViking

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Tiguan has 2.0CR TDi and Touareg and Q7 use these in the states... Haven't heard of one fail on Club Touareg, they had water pump issues that where ironed out on the V6 CR TDi.
 

Plus 3 Golfer

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Tiguan has 2.0CR TDi and Touareg and Q7 use these in the states... Haven't heard of one fail on Club Touareg, they had water pump issues that where ironed out on the V6 CR TDi.
Per my calculations, the VW's data submitted to NHTSA shows a failure rate of 0.21% for the A3 and A7 and a failure rate of 0.81% for the Touareg. And per the NHTSA data there were only about 5760 MY 2009 and 2010 A3s and A7s and 2604 Touaregs sold in the US.

Bottom line A3s, A7s and Touaregs have experienced about 33 HPFP failures.;)
 
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kjclow

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I thought the toureg and the Q7 were v-6 diesels, not 2.0 4 cyl.
 

Trooper81

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The NHSTA investigators also need to look into why VW changed the fuel system on the 2012 Passat tdi's. Why were those changes made?

Actually what i've been told is the actual engine from the passat isn't a direct port over from the Golf jetta but from the VW SHARAN. So there-in may lie your answer. It may have the same output and size but there are significant differences in that engine.

Secondly the 3.0 V6 tdi have the 2 plunger type design vs the 1 plunger in the 2.0 tdi Contaminated fuel will destroy any of the newer type hpfp's. And my personal conviction is that it's contamination killing them. Not necessarily the owners fault, but that of the fuel suppliers, distributors and gas station owners. I'm pretty sure if you did an audit of your local filling station you'd all be running for your life.
 

Niner

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Actually what i've been told is the actual engine from the passat isn't a direct port over from the Golf jetta but from the VW SHARAN. So there-in may lie your answer. It may have the same output and size but there are significant differences in that engine.

Secondly the 3.0 V6 tdi have the 2 plunger type design vs the 1 plunger in the 2.0 tdi Contaminated fuel will destroy any of the newer type hpfp's. And my personal conviction is that it's contamination killing them. Not necessarily the owners fault, but that of the fuel suppliers, distributors and gas station owners. I'm pretty sure if you did an audit of your local filling station you'd all be running for your life.
Still no explanation of why it's not killing every other brand of diesel pump out there with the same ratio of failures of the pump, injectors, and fuel system with a complete grenade and $8000+ repair bill.

No one seems to be able to explain that away, why other pumps are not failing with the same % regularity, on the exact same fuel with so called contaminants. If the bosch cp 4.x series of pumps is too sensitive to our fuel, then it's an inherent design problem. Our fuel is what it is, build something that runs on it, everyone else does.
 

Plus 3 Golfer

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....If the bosch cp 4.x series of pumps is too sensitive to our fuel, then it's an inherent design problem. Our fuel is what it is, build something that runs on it, everyone else does.
Here's a graphical representation of data that VW submitted to NHTSA on gasoline and water in samples of diesel fuel pulled by dealers IIRC in approximately Jul - Sept 2010. I averaged the results of the 3 samples pulled per selected vehicle and eliminated data that appeared to have anamolies.

Apparently, VW is saying that these amounts of gasoline and water in US diesel fuel represent the poor quality of US diesel fuel and are the cause of the HPFP failures. The question is what is the wear scar of diesel fuel with these levels of gasoline and water contamination? or how many tanks of RUG1 or RUG0.5 can the CR pump handle?:D Apparently the old pumps could handle this diesel fuel.

Note California's high quality diesel fuel - where is GTIDan when we need him.:D



 

kjclow

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Here's a graphical representation of data that VW submitted to NHTSA on gasoline and water in samples of diesel fuel pulled by dealers IIRC in approximately Jul - Sept 2010. I averaged the results of the 3 samples pulled per selected vehicle and eliminated data that appeared to have anamolies.

Apparently, VW is saying that these amounts of gasoline and water in US diesel fuel represent the poor quality of US diesel fuel and are the cause of the HPFP failures. The question is what is the wear scar of diesel fuel with these levels of gasoline and water contamination? or how many tanks of RUG1 or RUG0.5 can the CR pump handle?:D Apparently the old pumps could handle this diesel fuel.

Note California's high quality diesel fuel - where is GTIDan when we need him.:D
Need to look at the number of samples before you decide that California has superior fuel. There were only 17 samples out of Ca versus 59 for the rest of the US.
 

GTIDan

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Here's a graphical representation of data that VW submitted to NHTSA on gasoline and water in samples of diesel fuel pulled by dealers IIRC in approximately Jul - Sept 2010. I averaged the results of the 3 samples pulled per selected vehicle and eliminated data that appeared to have anamolies.

Apparently, VW is saying that these amounts of gasoline and water in US diesel fuel represent the poor quality of US diesel fuel and are the cause of the HPFP failures. The question is what is the wear scar of diesel fuel with these levels of gasoline and water contamination? or how many tanks of RUG1 or RUG0.5 can the CR pump handle?:D Apparently the old pumps could handle this diesel fuel.

Note California's high quality diesel fuel - where is GTIDan when we need him.:D



where is GTIDan when we need him.:D

I'm here ol' boy and reading with interest. CARB standards here in California are arguably the strictest in the US.........perhaps the planet. Glad to see these results (seem) to prove this out regardless of the total number of samples taken.

Anyone know what brands were sampled? I would find that interesting for sure. As I've said many time I use 76 when available with Chevron and Shell as backups; all are 'Top Tier' brands. I stay far away from ARCO which is not.
 

Plus 3 Golfer

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Need to look at the number of samples before you decide that California has superior fuel. There were only 17 samples out of Ca versus 59 for the rest of the US.
It's merely a statement for GTIDan who believes CA fuel is superior. These graphs are not meant to be a statistical analysis of the data. Since we don't know the background to the data and why some of the data appears to be inconsitent, a statistical analysis comparing various states would be meaningless.

Quite frankly, CA is not immune to gas contamination in diesel fuel. Also, about 30% of the non-misfueling failures listed in the NHTSA data were from CA. dweisel's state by state list of HPFP failures shows nearly 20% of HPFP failures are from CA. Both are significantly more than CA population % of the US which is about 12%. Of course there could be a larger % of these CR TDIs in CA than the rest of the US.

Bottom line, the data shows gas contamination of diesel fuel is not uncommon. The VW samples were pulled from dealers in about 1/2 the states. Of course we don't know how much gas contamination is too much.

GTIDan, there is no indication in the NHTSA data as to what brand of fuel might have been in the owners tanks when the fuel samples were taken.
 
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bhtooefr

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Honestly, I think the end result, with fuel quality being that poor and VW being powerless to do anything about it, will be the discontinuation of the TDI in the US market, between the cost of a better HPFP and the fuel economy of the upcoming 1.8T.
 

newnytdi

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Honestly, I think the end result, with fuel quality being that poor and VW being powerless to do anything about it, will be the discontinuation of the TDI in the US market, between the cost of a better HPFP and the fuel economy of the upcoming 1.8T.
Why wouldn't they just go back to something like their pre-hpfp design? They've been making diesels for some time.
 

bhtooefr

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Because, without it, they cannot meet US emissions standards.

The 4-cylinder TDIs were discontinued in the US market in 2007, remember, due to emissions.
 

Second Turbo

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Inconsistent with Master Plan

bhtooefr: > I think the end result, with fuel quality being that poor and VW being powerless to do anything about it, will be the discontinuation of the TDI in the US market, between the cost of a better HPFP and the fuel economy of the upcoming 1.8T.

I tend to disagree. In support of your argument, or course, we have the precedent that they did indeed withdraw TDI for several years due to Tier 2.

Reasons why they probably won't retreat again include:

  • VW wants a much bigger percentage of the US market, and diesel sales are currently growing comfortably.
  • They weren't having a pump problem until now (and no other diesel makers seem to be having a similar problem).
  • The liability is already on the road, and stopping sales won't make that go away. If, say, they put in a different pump and raise the new price of the cars by $437, that won't reduce the accounts payable.
We have 245,000 miles on our 2003 TDI, on the original fuel system components (other than filters and glow plugs). Target date for replacement of this vehicle is next summer. Candidates must have credible promise of being able to run at least that far without substantial self-destruct.

It's pretty clear to me that VW and/or Bosch designed the pump to US fuel spec, and not US fuel reality. Even if US fuel met its own spec, the pump seems to have no tolerance for user mis-fueling, which was evidently not a big deal on PD.
 

darrelld

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Honestly, I think the end result, with fuel quality being that poor and VW being powerless to do anything about it, will be the discontinuation of the TDI in the US market, between the cost of a better HPFP and the fuel economy of the upcoming 1.8T.
Unless TDIs drop to a much smaller percentage of overall VW sales thats unlikely.
 

GTIDan

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Unless TDIs drop to a much smaller percentage of overall VW sales thats unlikely.
I concur.........presently TDI sales make up more than 30 percent of Jetta sales. Not sure about the Golf line but I would guess it's about the same. TDIs are not going anywhere but out the door.
 

kjclow

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Because, without it, they cannot meet US emissions standards.

The 4-cylinder TDIs were discontinued in the US market in 2007, remember, due to emissions.
The pd engines were pulled from the US market because VW did not think they could make them meet the upcoming regulations. Actual model years without a diesel were 07 and 08.
 

kjclow

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I guess that was not how I read it the first time and I added a touch more info. Sorry, didn't mean to jump on you.
 
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