Mod addiction or drug addiction which is worse

Richard, I'd say take VWMikel's advice and ditch the hair dryer for a real turbo. Granted, I love my 17/22, but I can imagine the pulls it could do with a Turbo Grande! Before that though, get a better intake mani and turbo inlet pipe... Oh, and get a big boy intercooler as well. I know your IAT's must hate you in the summer time.

Farfromovin said:

Richard, I'd say take VWMikel's advice and ditch the hair dryer for a real turbo. Granted, I love my 17/22, but I can imagine the pulls it could do with a Turbo Grande! Before that though, get a better intake mani and turbo inlet pipe... Oh, and get a big boy intercooler as well. I know your IAT's must hate you in the summer time.

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Agreed. Richard, if you feel like you've done it all and still want more, get a large VNT (or WG if you don't mind lag), FMIC, custom intake (yes, you can do much better than PD150), custom tubular exhaust manifold, R520s (with higher pop pressures), large custom DP+exhaust (Fix_Until_Broke did 3" DP w/4" exhaust) and a performance cam like a Dbilas 260 or the offering from Colt Cams.

Very few people in the US have done all of this, which is why we have so few 200+whp ALH dynos. After that, you can go for a 12mm pump head, port your cylinder head (install larger valves too if you want to take a walk on the "wild side"), and beef up the bottom end with girdle, h-beam rods, and some custom pistons (I think shorty has some good ideas when it comes to this).

If you aren't sick of it yet, and somehow still have more money to blow on your economy car, do a 6 speed swap, Bleached Bora has made kits so it isn't as much work as it was before. With all of the power, you will need a stronger transmission and something with a larger clutch+FW so you don't go throwing clutch springs through the case or shredding gears.

And now, if you still don't mind that you have dropped in the neighborhood of $12,000+ in parts, import the parts for a 4motion swap and make a custom floorpan for your beetle, there will be no car like it.

After all of this, you can do a body kit, wheels, suspension, paint, and then go and win some car shows. Hey come on, it's only money. Right?

Damn Daniel- you are on a "hole notha level". Although that's pretty much what I was thinking too =). Just imagine a 300whp diesel NB with 4motion and a wide body kit with full race suspension... hmmm... not your girly beetle anymore LOL. I'm not a huge fan of NB's but that just sounds like a scary ride. An R32 eatin', STI smokin' machine!

--edit-- Or Richard, if you're just looking for something else to upgrade, how about your brakes? Some nice 6 piston Cayanne (sp?) calipers with some 14.1" 2 piece rotors up front and something ever so slightly smaller in the back should put a quick stop to your triple digit runs if need be in an emergency situation...

danielhf said:

Agreed. Richard, if you feel like you've done it all and still want more, get a large VNT (or WG if you don't mind lag), FMIC, custom intake (yes, you can do much better than PD150), custom tubular exhaust manifold, R520s (with higher pop pressures), large custom DP+exhaust (Fix_Until_Broke did 3" DP w/4" exhaust) and a performance cam like a Dbilas 260 or the offering from Colt Cams.

Very few people in the US have done all of this, which is why we have so few 200+whp ALH dynos. After that, you can go for a 12mm pump head, port your cylinder head (install larger valves too if you want to take a walk on the "wild side"), and beef up the bottom end with girdle, h-beam rods, and some custom pistons (I think shorty has some good ideas when it comes to this).

If you aren't sick of it yet, and somehow still have more money to blow on your economy car, do a 6 speed swap, Bleached Bora has made kits so it isn't as much work as it was before. With all of the power, you will need a stronger transmission and something with a larger clutch+FW so you don't go throwing clutch springs through the case or shredding gears.

And now, if you still don't mind that you have dropped in the neighborhood of $12,000+ in parts, import the parts for a 4motion swap and make a custom floorpan for your beetle, there will be no car like it.

After all of this, you can do a body kit, wheels, suspension, paint, and then go and win some car shows. Hey come on, it's only money. Right?

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And one of the last mods that no one has ever mentioned here, is when the other half hands you the divorce papers already modified.

Wow Wow

danielhf said:

Very few people in the US have done all of this, port your cylinder head (install larger valves too if you want to take a walk on the "wild side"),

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boy timing couldn't be better for this.i have 3 sets of valves coming in.38mm intake,34mm exhaust custom made
but hurry,i just bought myself a 2000 beetle gls to make an evil bug 2 but all fuel.

Hey guys, I just got an 2000 TDI and yes there is allot available,
but twin intercooler is the start, there is no need to open and install big vavle, about Camshaft ?
camshaft can easy substitute larger valve and results are actually great, but of course do not use an aggressive profile, were drive ability start to loose, so remember you want power but not loose "drive ability" because if goes down mostly you would hate driving, just no funn

MAXRPM said:

And one of the last mods that no one has ever mentioned here, is when the other half hands you the divorce papers already modified.

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Divorce is CHEAP right now!!! If you are thinking about it, PULL THE TRIGGER NOW!

Why you ask? Like most everyone that has a retirement fund, it's down about 50%, home prices are in the dumps along with everything else!

For example, if you divorced a year ago and had $300k home equity (house worth $500k w/ a $200k outstanding loan) and $200k in a 401k, it would cost you $250k to divorce (1/2 of $300k and $200k). In todays market, your home may be only have $150k in equity (house worth $350 w/ a $200k outstanding loan) and 401k worth $100k. So if you divorce now, you lose $125K (1/2 of 350k and 100k). You just saved yourself $125K!!!!

engineperformancetuning said:

Hey guys, I just got an 2000 TDI and yes there is allot available,
but twin intercooler is the start, there is no need to open and install big vavle, about Camshaft ?
camshaft can easy substitute larger valve and results are actually great, but of course do not use an aggressive profile, were drive ability start to loose, so remember you want power but not loose "drive ability" because if goes down mostly you would hate driving, just no funn

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really,you have dyno sheets to prove this.when did you install bigger valves?

bring on your dyno sheets.

Addiction Woes

Hey,

I think modding is a better problem to have out of all addictions out there. Keeps me out of trouble. But when I was married I was always getting in trouble for working on the car and buying something new.
Shees, even when I had to get new tires, the ex used to get mad. She knew how much I liked getting stuff for the car, or bike, or bicycles or whatever.
I am gonna do the quattro mod and repaint and..... Damn this is fun! I just dream it and then POOF! I buy it or fix it or see someone else do it and then I have to do it too!

Zwei Bora Tdi said:

Hey,
But when I was married I was always getting in trouble for working on the car and buying something new.
Shees, even when I had to get new tires, the ex used to get mad. She knew how much I liked getting stuff for the car, or bike, or bicycles or whatever.

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That's because most women are attention whores. They hate the fact that something else gets your attention & time and it's not them.

I almost got married once... dumped her and been happy ever since!

Do you know why divorce is expensive? Because it's WORTH IT!

Very True

You are absolutely correct! I couldn't imagine the crap I would have gotten once I got the Ducati!

87turboquattro said:

boy timing couldn't be better for this.i have 3 sets of valves coming in.38mm intake,34mm exhaust custom made
but hurry,i just bought myself a 2000 beetle gls to make an evil bug 2 but all fuel.

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Bill, it was good talking to you on the phone a few weeks ago. I'll let you know when I get the new engine in. Looking forward to what you can do. I need to talk to StingrayRT about bigger PD valves. I'll call you as soon as I get the engine in.

engineperformancetuning said:

Hey guys, I just got an 2000 TDI and yes there is allot available,
but twin intercooler is the start, there is no need to open and install big vavle, about Camshaft ?
camshaft can easy substitute larger valve and results are actually great, but of course do not use an aggressive profile, were drive ability start to loose, so remember you want power but not loose "drive ability" because if goes down mostly you would hate driving, just no funn

Click to expand...

How can you say there is no need for larger valves? First of all, with all this talk of air mods, that's probably the most effective solution compared to different intakes and exhaust manifolds, and look how many have upgarded those! That really has nothing to do with what I mentioned for further modding. It doesn't matter even if larger valves show a "minimal" improvement compared to a more aggressive cam shaft. I am speaking of what mods to do if money is of little significance and you are trying to build an all-out fast TDI. By this point, the cam should have been upgraded long ago! If it is a possible mod, it must be done, really doesn't matter if you think it is minimal (to which I still respectfully disagree with).

The mods I mentioned in my previous post were power mods intended for those who feel that their VNT17/22 and RC6 aren't quite enough for them. To most, cars with 17/22s and RC6s (tuned for the small turbo) are far more than enough, and rightfully so. A car that started out 90 bhp/155 tq and is suddenly now 185 whp/330+wtq is very impressive and powerful, especially considering the power band. But if you don't care that you already have $5,000+ under the hood and don't intend on ever stopping (and can afford it), the mods I listed are your next steps.

For the record, I would say that larger valves could possibly be one of the most important mods when you arrive at a certain point in engine modding, and I believe that many have reached this threshold.

danielhf said:

Bill, it was good talking to you on the phone a few weeks ago. I'll let you know when I get the new engine in. Looking forward to what you can do. I need to talk to StingrayRT about bigger PD valves. I'll call you as soon as I get the engine in.

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if i knew they were the same as the 8v ahu i could get you some.glad i didn't scare you off.

I have to admit I rarely use WOT in my wagon. It either spins wheels or builds speed into illegal territory much too fast. I enjoy the power but find myself just barely leaning on the accelerator most of the time. It certainly is more than adequate for the street, especially in this part of the US.

However, for the track I'd like more. As long as 87turboquattro is reading this thread, I'll ask the question. What should I do first: porting or cam? I'm considering a 260 cam and stronger valve springs but not changing the head porting. Discuss.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

However, for the track I'd like more. As long as 87turboquattro is reading this thread, I'll ask the question. What should I do first: porting or cam? I'm considering a 260 cam and stronger valve springs but not changing the head porting. Discuss.

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both accomplish the same thing,increased airflow.but at some point the cam can only do so much for stock head.just as stock cam will start to artificially choke a ported head.personally i think stock cam and ported head will be a nice street combo,higher tq down low
me,i'd port head and set it up for a cam upgrade at some point.springs and ports are gonna need a cleaning anyway.

That makes sense. I want to do the cam at the same time. I'm trying to increase HP and limit torque for track use.

The power is in the heads. The better they breathe, the more power you make. It's really that simple. Stock heads will choke a better cam and only make it run marginally better.

You really have to think about the cam AND the heads together, as a combination. You will get better results when you port the heads that match the cam.

I'm not sure how "great" you can make the heads. I haven't had any head work done on this engine but I would suspect it would take a real expert doing the machine work. You start changing the flow inside and I can't help but to think that a lot of engineering thrown into it from the get go. Obviously it's the choking point as our engines were designed for 2 things: economy and emmisions. There must be some people who are doing it well as we keep seeing TDI's with huge hp numbers. Mainly they belong to the top euro tuners and engine builders though...
I do have hope though that soon enough there will be handfulls of 250whp+ N.A. TDI's ;-)

Farfromovin said:

I'm not sure how "great" you can make the heads. I haven't had any head work done on this engine but I would suspect it would take a real expert doing the machine work. You start changing the flow inside and I can't help but to think that a lot of engineering thrown into it from the get go.

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no offence,but you should go look at the ports of 100 random heads and you'll see some engineering.different sizes and core shift are the more obvious ones.

Farfromovin said:

I'm not sure how "great" you can make the heads. I haven't had any head work done on this engine but I would suspect it would take a real expert doing the machine work.

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I don't think it would take an expert. A good head porter would make power out of a stock set of heads. Obviously, someone who knows VW heads will know where the most gains will be had... but any capable head porter should increase performance over stock.

Farfromovin said:

You start changing the flow inside and I can't help but to think that a lot of engineering thrown into it from the get go.

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While that's generally true, EVERY auto company is faced with limitations: intended operation, cost, and emissions. Once we start modding, the intended operation of the head goes out the window. The head wasn't designed with 26-30 psi of boost and additional fuel thrown in. Secondly, auto companies are very price sensitive. They will only design and make a head if it fits within their budget for the car. They won't spend the time and money to wring out every last bit of performance. And lastly, it has to pass emissions which usually means a sacrifice in performance.

We are not confined to these limitations and therefore, should be able to get some performance out of porting a set of stock heads.

If you want to see what heads are capable of doing, look at the race teams to see the potential. We all know that racing technology and expertise trickles down to the assembly line.

Farfromovin said:

Obviously it's the choking point as our engines were designed for 2 things: economy and emmisions.

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Correct and that's why there should be room for improvement. See above.

If a head is not ported propely, it will definitly affect the air swirl from the head, leaving you with a quick burst of power then taking a ditch from the power band curve, that is why sometimes you see dynos sheets with good HP numbers, but the power band curve does not look flat at all.

Race teams use the latest tecnology to port their head giving the right air swirl to produce more HP and keep their power band intact.

87turboquattro said:

if i knew they were the same as the 8v ahu i could get you some.glad i didn't scare you off.

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If you look, for PD the valves you can order just at the vw dealer are drop in qua length and stem size..

engineperformancetuning said:

Hey guys, I just got an 2000 TDI and yes there is allot available,
but twin intercooler is the start, there is no need to open and install big vavle, about Camshaft ?
camshaft can easy substitute larger valve and results are actually great, but of course do not use an aggressive profile, were drive ability start to loose, so remember you want power but not loose "drive ability" because if goes down mostly you would hate driving, just no funn

Click to expand...

Put an oem head on a flowbench and you'll see you're wrong, especially the exh side..

MAXRPM said:

If a head is not ported propely, it will definitly affect the air swirl from the head, leaving you with a quick burst of power then taking a ditch from the power band curve, that is why sometimes you see dynos sheets with good HP numbers, but the power band curve does not look flat at all.

Race teams use the latest tecnology to port their head giving the right air swirl to produce more HP and keep their power band intact.

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so why do dyno sheets of stock heads look like that?

every nascar team that uses that tecn,have a series of motors for the race track their going to.its not 1 engine(or airflow/cam combo) fits all.

and one of the best(i even have had to use him) in the business uses wet flow.when the heads come back,their not the prettiest,but they make power and in a narrow powerband.looks like a diesel dynosheet.

Rub87 said:

If you look, for PD the valves you can order just at the vw dealer are drop in qua length and stem size..

Put an oem head on a flowbench and you'll see you're wrong, especially the exh side..

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thanks again rube(answer my emails) i guess the pd owners are in luck now,i can get the valves.
anyone that knows flow would know the exhaust sides a turd.intake is less noticible.
the more engineperftuning talks.... guess his info gets lost in the multiple translations.

Does the swirl of air in matter for power production, or just for emissions?

It makes sense to me that improving air flow through the head with both porting and longer valve duration (especially exhaust) will help. And making the ports both clean, consistent cylinder to cylinder, and matching them to the exhaust manifold would probably make a significant difference. The real benefit may be less heat. If I could run the fuel and boost I have now with the 17/22, but move heat out of the cylinder head and turbo more effectively, I'll be very happy. Same power, less heat, more durability. That's what I'd like.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

Does the swirl of air in matter for power production, or just for emissions?

.

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hint,mrchills car has never lost swirl.i have my own way of wet flow testing.

neither of us have had the guts for me to take all the swirl out,i could,just not sure i would.i keep thinking of the gm 6.5l motors.

Great, you'll be hearing from me as soon as the Golf returns from the body shop. Mod addition is alive and well in 2009!

IndigoBlueWagon said:

Does the swirl of air in matter for power production, or just for emissions?

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I would imagine both power and emissions... It probably improves emissions due to better mixing and therefor a cleaner burn. Likewise, better mixing and more complete burn should yield more power from the fuel.

I would imagine the best route would be to maintain the general shape/geometry and just enlarge/smooth.

Bigger valves is a great idea... since we are restricted to 8, just make them bigger. In a way, the simplicity and reliability of a single cam and 8 valves is a good thing... they just need to be a better flowing 8 valves.

When someone gets custom larger valves made... they should make a bunch and sell them as kits.

I will report back very soon on head work on the mk3 engine as Bill (87turboquattro) performed some of his magic on my AHU head sitting at Mrchill. It was not build for all out performance but should be considered mild and flow well according to Bill. I will dyno after the upgrades