If you are considering buyback which cars are you looking at as replacements?

Test driving a 2014 BMW 328d tomorrow. Any thoughts? Loved the Jag diesel but not in the XE (too small and cheap feeling for a Jag). Loved the diesel XF, but way too pricey. The Benz E250 was adequate but not terribly inspiring.

MD Vet said:

Any advice?
I have a purchase order from a dealer for a 2017 Civic Hatchback as follows…
MSRP - 22,800
Destination - 835
Total - 23,635

Talked them down to 22,019 and a 300 "processing fee"

Of course I have to add tax/title/tags on the end, but what do you guys think?

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Do you mean coupe?
I think You can negotiate $1000 further IMO. Processing fee is total BS as well.
I typically contact 3-4 dealerships before I close. But then again I live in a metro

MD Vet said:

Any advice?
I have a purchase order from a dealer for a 2017 Civic Hatchback as follows…
MSRP - 22,800
Destination - 835
Total - 23,635

Talked them down to 22,019 and a 300 "processing fee"

Of course I have to add tax/title/tags on the end, but what do you guys think?

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That's a good price in my opinion. There's not a lot of markup in the less expensive cars. Honda dealers are not real flexible on prices.

My wife wanted a new Honda Pilot 4x4 Touring model in 2012. It had to be Pearl White. She wanted only that car. I called around and spoke with several sales managers. All told me if and when they got their hands on that particular car they would sell it for MSRP. No discounts. That's what we had to pay to get the car she wanted. She bought the only 2012 Honda Pilot Touring 4 x 4 in Pearl White from AZ to MS and up into CO, KS, OK, AR, and MO. I sent about 30 emails to every Honda dealer in those states telling them I wanted to buy that car. There was only one and we bought it.

Processing fees are charged by all dealers. That fee pays the F&I Manager for his/her time doing the sale paperwork. The amount varies. I'm more accustomed to processing or admin fees in the $150 range but it depends on the area where you're buying. Call several dealers and compare. They're probably similar unless it's a brand that sells poorly. If $300 is high for your area you might try to negotiate it.

Try plugging your Honda Civic information into the True Car website to compare the price you negotiated with the price others have paid.

https://www.truecar.com

HBarlow said:

That's a good price in my opinion. There's not a lot of markup in the less expensive cars. Honda dealers are not real flexible on prices.

My wife wanted a new Honda Pilot 4x4 Touring model in 2012. It had to be Pearl White. She wanted only that car. I called around and spoke with several sales managers. All told me if and when they got their hands on that particular car they would sell it for MSRP. No discounts. That's what we had to pay to get the car she wanted. She bought the only 2012 Honda Pilot Touring 4 x 4 in Pearl White from AZ to MS and up into CO, KS, OK, AR, and MO. I sent about 30 emails to every Honda dealer in those states telling them I wanted to buy that car. There was only one and we bought it.

Processing fees are charged by all dealers. That fee pays the F&I Manager for his/her time doing the sale paperwork. The amount varies. I'm more accustomed to processing or admin fees in the $150 range but it depends on the area where you're buying. Call several dealers and compare. They're probably similar unless it's a brand that sells poorly. If $300 is high for your area you might try to negotiate it.

Try plugging your Honda Civic information into the True Car website to compare the price you negotiated with the price others have paid.

https://www.truecar.com

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Wow, that's crazy! But I must say, I LOVE that color.

We picked up a 2011 Odyssey ELX two years old for $23K and have loved it to death for road trips and big box store visits.

I looked for 6 months in a 250 mile radius and found this one with 60K miles on it. The manager had convinced the guy to trade it on a new one to reduce his payment, so he essentially ate all the depreciation. I don't think the back seats had been used at all and it looked new with minor wear. A rare find at the time as most were going for $30K+.

speedrye said:

I hear you on deer country, and that's why I usually have additional driving lights. My issues with LEDs are the color temperature and limited CRI (color rendering index). The 5000k-6000k+ LED color is way too blue for my preference. A stock 4300k HID is almost too blue for me, and I love the 2700k HIDs in my FJ's aux. lights. Honestly, I love the color of halogen for driving, but the limited output is an issue for me. Next up is the CRI. In almost all of the LED lights I've driven, it's much harder to discern colors at night. This can be huge when asphalt and grass look very similar. The LED output initially looks impressive, but it doesn't go you any good if you can't see as well. It's like those people that put those crap PnP HIDs in their projector housings. Sure, it looks bright as well, but the function is terrible in actuality. Now, I do love LEDs as auxiliary lighting, just not as main source of lighting on the street.

Take everything I say with a grain of salt though as I'm a bit of a lighting whore. That's one thing I pretty much always modify on cars, even if the rest is stock.

Random sidenote: The HID in 2014-2015 Mazda 6 GTs are the same as the Lexus RX-350 AFS projectors, typically recognized as one of the best projectors out there.

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Fellow lighting nerd, here! I agree that the modern LEDs are too cool (color temp) for me, and their color rendering is poor (maybe 70 CRI?). I'd love to see auto manufacturers warm them up a bit (3500K would be a nice compromise) and improve the CRI.

HBarlow said:

Processing fees are charged by all dealers. That fee pays the F&I Manager for his/her time doing the sale paperwork.

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They're charged by most (not all) dealers, but they're still a BS fee. Yes, they have to do paperwork to process the sale; they have to do that for every sale--it should be figured into the price of the car. They don't break out a line item for the salesman's commission, or for electricity at the dealer. They don't break out a line item for fuel in the tank. It's nothing short of false advertising to advertise one price, but refuse to sell it for that price without paying additional mandatory fees to the dealership (taxes and fees to government agencies, registration, etc. are different, IMO).

Those fees vary greatly depending on your location, and in some cases on state law. In SC, they're capped by law at $225. Yesterday, I paid $599 at an Audi dealer in Atlanta. I've seen some places in FL charging as much as $899. I've seen some places in the NE that are on the order of $75.

When you buy a gun at a dealer, the dealer has to fill out a fair bit of paperwork. They don't charge you separately for that; it's built into the price of the gun.

I remember the first time I had to pay one of these fees. It's ridiculous. They never tell you about it until you're ready to sign and you wonder why the numbers aren't right. Just another way to ding you for a few hundred more; if that wasn't the case, they could just be up-front about it.

I don't understand why car manufacturers think people enjoy buying cars. But then they try fixed-price things like Saturn and Scion and get rid of them. Maybe most people like the games and shenanigans, but I try to avoid the process. Besides, the longer you keep the car, the less depreciation you have to worry about, etc.

There is no money to be made selling a new car at invoice (even though they still make a couple hundred on the holdback - usually). The only way they can make money is if you trade-in a car, or you're a sucker and agree to a high interest rate or buy a bunch of overpriced garbage in the finance office. None of which I ever do. If the manufacturer isn't offering 0% financing, I arrange my own financing through my credit union.

I won't sweat a $500 doc/processing fee. They deserve to make a little money for their time.

Yeah, but usually I'm not paying invoice.

Jimmy Coconuts said:

They deserve to make a little money for their time.

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They do--and it should be factored into the sale price of the car. They don't deserve to lie in their advertising about the price for which they'll sell the car.

DanB36 said:

They do--and it should be factored into the sale price of the car. They don't deserve to lie in their advertising about the price for which they'll sell the car.

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Dealers started charging these fees because of buyers like me who arrange their own financing and don't have a trade-in. It's literally the only way they can make any money at all on new car sales.

Many people shop cars through an internet quote process. In order to get customers on the lot, they have to "one-up" the other dealerships, so they will quote you a ridiculous price of $500 to $1000 below invoice (for example), and then they will make up the difference through a combination of holding back money on your trade-in, getting you to accept a higher interest rate, or by charging you a doc/processing fee.

Trust me, they will waive the doc/processing fee if you make a stink, but only if they are already making enough profit on the deal. No dealer will lose a $1500 deal over a $500 doc fee.

It's just part of the overall game you have to understand as a buyer. They are going to make a little money on the deal one way or another, or else they won't sell the car. It's that simple.

Yeah, CRI isn't yet where it needs to be, IMO, and I say that as someone who owns a car with Bi-LED projectors. Otherwise, light distribution's pretty good (although there's actually a bit more scatter than I'd like). IIRC, my bicycle headlight actually has better CRI than my Prius's headlights (although I haven't seen actual numbers on either, it's just that I don't remember my bicycle headlight being that bad at color rendering).

As far as TDIs feeling faster goes, some of that will be due to how a stoichiometric engine's transmission has to behave to maintain efficiency (although even a TDI loses efficiency at partial load, but it's not as bad as a gasser). The throttle is an intake restriction that takes power, so it's better to drop RPMs to keep the throttle open. However, if you've tuned the engine for higher RPM power, there's not much power available there, and you need to downshift a couple gears to respond to a sudden high power demand.

Combine that with stepped automatics of all sorts being fairly terrible (IMO, anyway), and traditional CVTs having responsiveness issues, and, well...

However, the modern wave of turbocharged gassers, as has been pointed out, move the powerband down in the rev range. It's worth noting that turbocharging isn't actually needed for this - increasing displacement can do it too, old-school American V8s had rather TDI-like torque curves. However, what turbocharging enables is part-load efficiency comparable to a much smaller naturally aspirated engine, at the expense of high-load efficiency and emissions (due to having to run richer for cooling). Their problem, however, is, as someone else mentioned, spooling the turbo - variable turbine geometry is uncommon. (And, of course, that high-load efficiency and emissions problem affects things, too...)

This is also why technologies like cylinder deactivation exist - if you can shut cylinders off, that's less inefficient than closing the throttle more. And, variable valve timing and variable valve lift systems can be used to improve partial-load efficiency as well, by either pushing excess charge out of the cylinder, or never letting it be introduced to the cylinder in the first place. EGR can also be used to displace intake air, so that's also being used to reduce pumping losses.

And, finally, then you've got hybridization. Regenerative braking helps in stop-and-go, but what about steady state? Ultimately, hybridization's trick is that it can ensure that the engine never has a load less than what's reasonably efficient, by using excess power to charge a battery. Conversely, it can help prevent the engine from having to go to higher RPM, inefficient operation, by using that electricity generated earlier, to assist the engine. (Or, it allows a smaller engine to have acceptable performance.) That's, IMO, where the real gains can be had - instant torque from the electric motor, then get the engine's revs up if it's needed.

Checking back to this thread after a brief absence. Update on the '16 GTI S 6MT I bought 6 weeks ago in PA and drove back to IN. This car is amazing and way more fun than a TDI. A total pocket rocket. If you have a TDI headed for buyback, dig Fahrvergnügen, and haven't yet decided what to buy, go GTI. You will love it.

Since I got the GTI the '09 JSW TDI that's going back to VW has been sitting stationary in the driveway. A couple days ago I thought I should at least start it up and maybe take it for a spin. I opened the door and was greeted by a familiar funk. The spare tire well had 4 inches (yes, 4 inches) of water in it and mold and mustiness had taken hold. A quick google search confirmed my suspicions, most likely the sunroof drains were clogged or somehow disconnected from the main tray. I say familiar funk because this car has had two major sunroof repairs in it's life, both covered by warranty, but still a big time hassle (the aforementioned funk). I loved that car and had a lot of good trips in it (bought new, 123k) but will be glad when it's out of the driveway.

I am so relieved I got the S trim in my GTI and not the SE. I was jonesin' big time for the Fender stereo but the black leather was a turn off (I love the Clark Plaid). I was leery of the sunroof because of the trouble I had with the one in the SportWagen, and before that the '95 Passat we owned. (As an aside our 99.5 Golf non-sunroof model has always been dry as the desert inside for the 14 years we've had it). After making the spare tire well discovery this week I feel like I really make the right decision. No more sunroofs for me!

You would think after all the years of installing and repairing sunroof drains in VW's, they would have the leak issues resolved.

(shows the level of incompetence within VW management)

Waiting on the buyback

Pulled the trigger on a '13 cpo Jag XJL a few weeks ago. Really nice car, scary fast. We managed to get 29mpg out of it on the highway. Not bad for a supercharged v8 .

While this could be considered another ridiculous car to choose as a replacement, our circumstances have changed since we bought the TDI seven years ago. Our commutes our different and retirement is just around the corner. Remember "life's too short to drive boring cars."

The TDI is parked until buyback. It has just 140012 miles on it and the current docs were uploaded. The registration is now expired and the car has been placed in non-op status with the DMV. The better half did not want to pay the registration and smog for a couple of months usage. In modifying the insurance on it our agent told us that their has been a lot of activity with VW TDI's lately.

It just makes me sad as it's been a great car that was fun to drive.

I'm going old school and pre-owned. Looking at a well kept MB W123 300D and maybe even consider a 240D although they are a bit underpowered. I've seen a number of them on CL and Hemmings Motor News but they aren't in Oregon.

The rest of the cash left over will be a new roof on my house next Spring.

Having driven a 240D, I can fully appreciate the icon you put in after "-they are a bit underpowered." The nicest word one can use describing the acceleration of that car is "sedate."

HBarlow said:

Processing fees are charged by all dealers. That fee pays the F&I Manager for his/her time doing the sale paperwork. The amount varies. I'm more accustomed to processing or admin fees in the $150 range but it depends on the area where you're buying. Call several dealers and compare. They're probably similar unless it's a brand that sells poorly. If $300 is high for your area you might try to negotiate it.

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In the vast majority of cases, document fees are charged. But I bought a Corvette at MacMulkin Chevrolet in Nashua NH. They are the second largest Corvette dealer in the USA and will arrange to have cars shipped anywhere. They charge zero documentation fees. In my case, it was a factory order, picked up in Nashua. I did my own Vermont registration, they only passed on to me the original vehicle origin paperwork from the factory. But the salesman had a lot of other administrative paperwork to perform.

Its a competitive business with a half dozen or so dealers selling Corvettes nationwide. I suppose competition drove the "documentation fee" down to zero.

TDILeo said:

I'm going old school and pre-owned. Looking at a well kept MB W123 300D and maybe even consider a 240D although they are a bit underpowered. I've seen a number of them on CL and Hemmings Motor News but they aren't in Oregon.

The rest of the cash left over will be a new roof on my house next Spring.

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I used to own a 1981 300SD. I called it "der Panzerwagon". The engine was bullet proof. But floor it, and you left a black cloud like an old Cummins.

TDILeo said:

I'm going old school and pre-owned. Looking at a well kept MB W123 300D and maybe even consider a 240D although they are a bit underpowered. I've seen a number of them on CL and Hemmings Motor News but they aren't in Oregon.

The rest of the cash left over will be a new roof on my house next Spring.

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Had a 240D for 25 years and a 220D for 6 or 7 years before that. Finally got tired of driving something with only 65 hp. So many takeoffs ended up virtually full throttle ones. It would do well on most mountains as long as it never got slowed down. Get slowed down, and you're down to 3rd gear and around 55-60 the rest of the way up the mountain. Always appreciated that really rock solid feel to it. You knew you were driving a Benz. Probably would have kept it if it had turbo on it. Probably could have had it rully turboed and upgraded for what we paid for a new VW. It was the easiest car in the world to work on.

New car

http://m.imgur.com/a/3p8ig
Just to give you guys an example that high volume low cost cars can be had for a very good price. Bigger the dealer, bigger is the chance of you getting a fat discount. Dealers have internal rebates with manufacturers on top of a fat discount and other incentives so don't you guys ever buy any car at msrp.
With internet these days you can buy car across the country with transportation cost. For ex. I bought a car from a dealer in Ny few years ago and still beat the best quote that I got from a local dealer by $500. Earlier, when negotiating my local sales manager was doing what they do best- lying and swearing (on family and kids- I hate it when they bring family between a business transaction), obviously I didn't made a deal with them but I had to show him the new car that I bought out of state and to rub in, the amount I paid. The guy was astonished by the fact how far I was willing to go to save $$$ amount. Now he and I are on first name basis and I got 3 cars from him in last couple years.
Truecar.com gives a good idea, but in my experience, on an average what true car suggests the price, you can negotiate $500-800 on top of that price.
For those who don't want to haggle, there is Costco car buying service which is still better than buying at MSRP.

I have a '93 300D. Even with the newer engine and body, the car is not fast. Requires some planning to merge onto highways. It'll run happily all day at 75-80 MPH, but it takes a while to get there.

TDILeo said:

I'm going old school and pre-owned. Looking at a well kept MB W123 300D and maybe even consider a 240D although they are a bit underpowered. I've seen a number of them on CL and Hemmings Motor News but they aren't in Oregon.

The rest of the cash left over will be a new roof on my house next Spring.

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I've never owned one but admire the turbo charged versions and have thought about buying one several times.

Are you familiar with http://bringatrailer.com/ ?

It's an online auction. If you subscribe they'll send you an updated list every day. Some are submitted by owner/sellers and some are copy and pasted on the site from ebay. Many interesting vintage cars, exotic European cars, and muscle cars show up.

I've seen numerous vintage MBs listed - some very nice, well maintained, original or almost original owners.

This is probably the nicest example of a 240D that I have come across. I love the look of the entire car, but that is asking a lot for a 67 HP car. Still, I really like it.
http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/cto/5813513171.html

Looking into either a 2008 335i, or a 328i....

Given the number of complaints I read here about frequency and cost of service and repairs on VWs, I think those who buy out of warranty BMWs may be in for a rude shock when something breaks, or when a major service interval comes around.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

Given the number of complaints I read here about frequency and cost of service and repairs on VWs, I think those who buy out of warranty BMWs may be in for a rude shock when something breaks, or when a major service interval comes around.

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Yup. Going from a late model VW to a (soon to be) 10+ year old BMW or Mercedes. It sounds appealing though..."I can have a nice car and not have a big car payment." People need to keep in mind that even though a price tag on a car like that is low at the moment....they're talking about doing maintenance on a ~$50k car. There's a reason why those cars pop up for sale with 100-120k miles (or the equivalent age for service intervals). The original owner decided that they'd rather spend the $2,000+ that they were quoted for service on the down payment on a new one.

I went through that with a Land Cruiser that I had years ago. ~$50k vehicle when new. I knew that when I bought it (that I was going to be doing maintenance on a $50k vehicle...not a $10k one (what I spent on it). It's one thing to know that though...it's another thing to experience it. As much as I thought it was a fun vehicle and I'd probably enjoy having another one...I have no interest in having to pay to keep one of those running again.

bubbagumpshrimp said:

<snip>
I went through that with a Land Cruiser that I had years ago. ~$50k vehicle when new. I knew that when I bought it (that I was going to be doing maintenance on a $50k vehicle...not a $10k one (what I spent on it). It's one thing to know that though...it's another thing to experience it. As much as I thought it was a fun vehicle and I'd probably enjoy having another one...I have no interest in having to pay to keep one of those running again.

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Which is what everyone going through buying the cars cited, or an Acura, Infiniti, or Lexus experiences. These brands are the most graphic example of this, as they are simply fancier Hondas, Nissans, or Toyotas. But the price of service jumps up along with what these cars sell for new.
Another point (and this applies to ANY car) is to never go to a dealer and simply agree to the "XXK miles service package." These things can be very inflated, and much of what is being paid for are "inspections," which are billed at outrageous flat-rate prices. Find out what specific items of service are needful, and have them done at a reputable independent shop.

TDILeo said:

This is probably the nicest example of a 240D that I have come across. ]

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Leo, you have made my day!

Thanks for jarring my memory banks to recall heading East toward Poor Red's somewhere between Sacramento and Lake Tahoe - - - in a manual shift MB 240D.

My BIL had to downshift so often.......I recall laughing out loud. He was a cool dude and took no offense - but with 4 pax on board, the mild grade near Placerville seemed to really tax the diesel.......................

again, gracias for the memories.


ez

I just purchased a 2015 Audi Allroad with 14K miles. This will be replacement for my TDI. I really loved the TDI, but don't travel long distances enough. Probably my first and last diesel.