Electric vehicles (EVs), their emissions, and future viability

bizzle · Aug 31, 2017

turbobrick240 said:
^ That is amazing. In another two years it will have paid for itself in fuel and maintenance savings. Those $40k used models are starting to look pretty darn good.

I haven't run the numbers yet but I'm at 250K on my bug and that only cost me $5k. Even if the numbers are close it took me 20 years to pile those miles on.

turbobrick240 · Aug 31, 2017

bizzle said:
I haven't run the numbers yet but I'm at 250K on my bug and that only cost me $5k. Even if the numbers are close it took me 20 years to pile those miles on.

Apples and oranges. Might as well compare a Hyundai accent to a Mercedes AMG. I'm starting to wonder how the all aluminum model s would hold up to the road salt and calcium chloride used on the roads up here. My '11 golf is already starting to need touch ups to fend off corrosion. I know aluminum isn't immune to corrosion, but I imagine it would fare quite a bit better than steel.

kjclow · Aug 31, 2017

To the standard road salt yes, but to the brine solution probably not that much better. The aluminum will oxidize and show up as salts on the surface of the panels, not like the steel rust that we're all used to.

Owain@malonetuning · Aug 31, 2017

My old man has a couple aluminum bodied iron frame cars from the early 60s sitting around. Both British made, one high end one med. Both spent time in PEI and Saskatchewan. They're holding up great.

Here's an interesting swap we had in recently. It's a Nissan leaf motor with a custom controller, I cannot disclose much more than that. Made 275HP/250lb-ft first run and will be back with more later; for comparison, tuned MK7 1.8T TSIs put down about 250lb-ft and the most HP we've seen out of a stage 2 + golf R MK6 (from any tuning company, have tested a bunch) is 275. 12.6 @ 117 is his fastest, 2400lbs in a CRX.

Anyone else hiding this kind of stuff in the wood works?

VeeDubTDI · Aug 31, 2017

Awesome EV project!! I'm impressed that the LEAF motor is able to put our 275 hp without melting.

aja8888 · Aug 31, 2017

Is that photo too large or is my 24" monitor too small?

Owain@malonetuning · Aug 31, 2017

Fit mine just fine, but shrunk it down for you

Oilerlord · Sep 4, 2017

bizzle said:
I haven't run the numbers yet but I'm at 250K on my bug and that only cost me $5k.

Perhaps you should. Compared to an EV, it probably isn't as cheap to run as you may think it is.

If we rounded up the EPA average on your car 40 MPG combined, that's 6,250 gallons of diesel. Even at 2 bucks per gallon; that's $12,500 in fuel alone not counting oil changes, filters, timing belts, etc.

I went though all my old bills on my Audi A4 before I sold it. My fuel and engine-related maintenance brought my operating costs to about $25K over the 110,000 miles I drove it.

Oilerlord · Sep 5, 2017

Owain@malonetuning said:
It's a Nissan leaf motor with a custom controller, I cannot disclose much more than that. Made 275HP/250lb-ft first run and will be back with more later; for comparison, tuned MK7 1.8T TSIs put down about 250lb-ft and the most HP we've seen out of a stage 2 + golf R MK6 (from any tuning company, have tested a bunch) is 275. 12.6 @ 117 is his fastest, 2400lbs in a CRX.

Is it easy to tune / program an EV set up like this to put out more HP than torque? I'm curious to what sort of challenges you had to overcome to make this project possible, and about what the ballpark price would be if you were supplied a Civic (or golf/bug/jetta) chassis + used Nissan Leaf (for the motor/battery pull).

EV West sells a kit for older Beetles for ~$19K. The end result looks like a really cool car.

http://www.evwest.com/catalog/produ...ucts_id=168&osCsid=dt7afkr0glpu7qqstnj67uui13

Owain@malonetuning · Sep 5, 2017

This project wasn't done in house and was just a friend stopping by. He's spent years building the controller, but has sold a few boards, think they're around 4k. The IGBTs aren't cheap either and supply is hard to come by. Otmar ebenhoech would be the guy you want to get a hold of for some kind of custom tesla controller or something along those lines.

He does have his own tesla server setup on a wrecked vehicle that functions properly. It's off teslas grid and is one of a small handful that're functioning like that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bFSm9Ic3yo&t=4s

VeeDubTDI · Sep 5, 2017

Owain@malonetuning said:
This project wasn't done in house and was just a friend stopping by. He's spent years building the controller, but has sold a few boards, think they're around 4k. The IGBTs aren't cheap either and supply is hard to come by. Otmar ebenhoech would be the guy you want to get a hold of for some kind of custom tesla controller or something along those lines.

He does have his own tesla server setup on a wrecked vehicle that functions properly. It's off teslas grid and is one of a small handful that're functioning like that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bFSm9Ic3yo&t=4s

Nice. I was just watching some YouTube videos (by Jehu) that featured him last week.

bhtooefr · Sep 5, 2017

Speaking of YouTube videos, here's a live stream that'll start in about 10 minutes, that'll be providing commentary on the "next-gen" Leaf unveiling:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DPpYgg-C-s

Stream without commentary directly from Nissan here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7QxQGHx0Uo

turbocharged798 · Sep 5, 2017

Oilerlord said:
Perhaps you should. Compared to an EV, it probably isn't as cheap to run as you may think it is.

If we rounded up the EPA average on your car 40 MPG combined, that's 6,250 gallons of diesel. Even at 2 bucks per gallon; that's $12,500 in fuel alone not counting oil changes, filters, timing belts, etc.

I went though all my old bills on my Audi A4 before I sold it. My fuel and engine-related maintenance brought my operating costs to about $25K over the 110,000 miles I drove it.

Around here is more expensive to run an EV than diesel.

bhtooefr · Sep 5, 2017

What's your power company?

nwdiver · Sep 5, 2017

turbocharged798 said:
Around here is more expensive to run an EV than diesel.

That's what off-peak and EV plans are for...

Off-Peak electricity in NY is ~$0.04/kWh... that's <$0.02/mile....

Oilerlord · Sep 5, 2017

turbocharged798 said:
Around here is more expensive to run an EV than diesel.

How do you figure?

I did a quick check...diesel in upstate New York is ~$2.46 per gallon (at Costco). All-in, my power company's kWh's cost me about 5 cents each. I drove 63km (39 miles) with my EV today for about $0.48.

How much are you paying per kWh?

CraziFuzzy · Sep 6, 2017

Oilerlord said:
How do you figure?
I did a quick check...diesel in upstate New York is ~$2.46 per gallon (at Costco). All-in, my power company's kWh's cost me about 5 cents each. I drove 63km (39 miles) with my EV today for about $0.48.
How much are you paying per kWh?

Now now.. lets not bring facts and math into this discussion.

VeeDubTDI · Sep 6, 2017

Oilerlord said:
How do you figure?
I did a quick check...diesel in upstate New York is ~$2.46 per gallon (at Costco). All-in, my power company's kWh's cost me about 5 cents each. I drove 63km (39 miles) with my EV today for about $0.48.
How much are you paying per kWh?

According to Google, New York's average in May 2017 was 20.2 cents per kWh. Even then, the cost to drive 39 miles would be $1.97 at 4 miles per kWh.

I've seen reports of higher electricity prices in New England in recent years. It's possible that on a regular plan, driving an EV could be more expensive than driving the most efficient of internal combustion vehicles (ALH TDI or a Prius). However, as was mentioned earlier, off-peak pricing is available almost everywhere.

tadawson · Sep 6, 2017

Yeah, but short of two meters, off peak plans frequently are a 'lose' for everything else . . . For me, I office from home in Texas, so AC is the biggest expense by far, so an off peak plan would penalize, not help . . .

nwdiver · Sep 6, 2017

2018 LEAF was released yesterday. BIG improvement over the frog version. Rumors of a second ~60kWh battery option next year with a ~250 mile range.

I really like it. Just wish Nissan would invest more in a charging network or better yet... swallow their pride and join the Tesla network.

oilhammer · Sep 6, 2017

Yep, still hideous to look at, still overpriced.

nwdiver · Sep 6, 2017

oilhammer said:
Yep, still hideous to look at, still overpriced.

The 5 year cost of ownership should be much lower than any similar new car. Significantly lower after any tax credits. Yeah, used cars are the most cost effective but used cars gotta come from somewhere

El Dobro · Sep 6, 2017

PSEG customers get an extra $10,000 taken off the price of a new 2017 Leaf. That's one way to get rid of the leftovers.
https://www.pseg.com/info/media/promotion/nissan/index.jsp

bhtooefr · Sep 6, 2017

And, really, if Nissan's accounting works to make money on those deals (and note that they're making those $10,000 off deals in non-ZEV states often, too, so unless it's purely CAFE accounting, they may actually be making money period), I suspect that there's tons of profit in a $29k 2018 LEAF, too, given that it's a major refresh.

Oilerlord · Sep 6, 2017

VeeDubTDI said:
According to Google, New York's average in May 2017 was 20.2 cents per kWh. Even then, the cost to drive 39 miles would be $1.97 at 4 miles per kWh.
I've seen reports of higher electricity prices in New England in recent years. It's possible that on a regular plan, driving an EV could be more expensive than driving the most efficient of internal combustion vehicles (ALH TDI or a Prius). However, as was mentioned earlier, off-peak pricing is available almost everywhere.

I saw that too, but other sites list areas in NY state ~8 cents per kWH. Deals are out there. I think a lot of folks just hook up electricity from their local utility and don't shop around. Our rack rate is 8 cents / kWh but I'm on a spot / wholesale + 1 cent plan. Last month, my energy charge was 2.7 cents / kWh. All-in, including fees I was at about 5 cents. No way I'm finding diesel that cheap.

Oilerlord · Sep 6, 2017

bhtooefr said:
I suspect that there's tons of profit in a $29k 2018 LEAF, too, given that it's a major refresh.

It is about CAFE accounting. Taking the loss on the Leaf is the cost of doing business in selling profitable trucks & SUV's.

Oilhammer, you have to admit that the new 2018 model is less hideous than the original Leaf.

turbovan+tdi · Sep 6, 2017

nwdiver said:
2018 LEAF was released yesterday. BIG improvement over the frog version. Rumors of a second ~60kWh battery option next year with a ~250 mile range.
I really like it. Just wish Nissan would invest more in a charging network or better yet... swallow their pride and join the Tesla network.

That looks like Kryten from Red Dwarf!

aja8888 · Sep 6, 2017

Oilerlord said:
I saw that too, but other sites list areas in NY state ~8 cents per kWH. Deals are out there. I think a lot of folks just hook up electricity from their local utility and don't shop around. Our rack rate is 8 cents / kWh but I'm on a spot / wholesale + 1 cent plan. Last month, my energy charge was 2.7 cents / kWh. All-in, including fees I was at about 5 cents. No way I'm finding diesel that cheap.

A lot of folks in the U.S. can't shop for power as deregulation is not universal. Even here in Texas, where it is deregulated, our particular area is served by a long term agreement with Entergy. People 5 miles from us can purchase power from other providers, but where we are, we are stuck with Entergy. and their rate plan

nwdiver · Sep 6, 2017

turbovan+tdi said:
That looks like Kryten from Red Dwarf!

Yep... that's Robert Llewellyn. He's had a YouTube channel called 'Fully Charged' for a few years now. Does really good work.

aja8888 · Sep 6, 2017

Interesting Bill in the House:

https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/6/16259170/self-drive-act-autonomous-cars-legislation

The US House of Representatives passed a bill today that could accelerate the rollout of self-driving technology. The Safely Ensuring Lives Future Deployment and Research In Vehicle Evolution Act, or “SELF DRIVE” Act, quickly cleared the House with unanimous support, and now moves to the Senate. If it passes there, it could become the first national law for self-driving cars in the United States.

Electric vehicles (EVs), their emissions, and future viability

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