Dieselgate for tuned cars

bloc

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2006
Location
Austin, Tx
TDI
2013 Touareg TDI
I read through most of everything in the ftc site.. Doesn't seem as if modifications (any of them) will affect the eligibility for buyback. As long as the car shows up at the dealership (under it's own power), you should be fine for the buyback. However, if you opt for the "fix" you may be charged extra labor if you just show up with the parts to return the car to stock, even if the fix will require removal of those items.

That seems to be what I'm interpreting from the documents and discussion.

Obviously.. the wait continues. I plan to get a dealer's opinion as soon as they have someone on staff that is trained and it is their job to figure things like this out..
 

adjat84th

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Location
Virginia Beach, VA
TDI
'01 Jetta TDI/'15 Golf TDI
Are there any studies that show the NOx output of the EA288 motors? AFAIK, they're only lumped into this because of the software manipulation. The actual NOx output could be far less than the '09-'14 cars, but maybe still above legal limits? I am really hoping that the '15s just need an ECU update, or maybe some ridiculous air intake turbulator like some euro cars got so that I don't have to put my stock parts back on.

This brings up another point. How long would it take the tuners to retune the "fix" flash? Would VW go to lengths to make any future tampering even harder for them? Many people have said they'd reinstall stock parts, get the fix/ECU update, then flash a tune right back on...but what if you had to wait for tune availability just like when cars are first released?
 

nayr

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2013
Location
Colorado
TDI
2014 Audi Q7
Many people have said they'd reinstall stock parts, get the fix/ECU update, then flash a tune right back on...but what if you had to wait for tune availability just like when cars are first released?
Then wait to get the car fixed until the tune is avilable, a new tune will need to be developed for anyone needing to keep the hardware untouched.. it wont take long.. for those wanting to rip it all out and go to something else, those tunes already exist.. they wont need any changes to the software if you match the hardware.
 

bloc

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2006
Location
Austin, Tx
TDI
2013 Touareg TDI
Are there any studies that show the NOx output of the EA288 motors? AFAIK, they're only lumped into this because of the software manipulation. The actual NOx output could be far less than the '09-'14 cars, but maybe still above legal limits? I am really hoping that the '15s just need an ECU update, or maybe some ridiculous air intake turbulator like some euro cars got so that I don't have to put my stock parts back on.
According to court filings it is more than a flash. The current system has no way to track how effective the SCR is in reducing nOX, so they want to add a sensor to verify/modify, and make sure any changes to DEF dosing don't impact the durabilty of the DOC/SCR system. The holdup for approval seems to be durability testing.. but here's the text of what is proposed for 2015+ (EA288, aka Gen3).

For Gen 3:
Quote:
3.4.1 Require the future installation of OBD hardware and software to achieve
compliant SCR monitoring, including the addition of a Second NOx Sensor in a
Subsequent Service Action according to the mileage intervals and schedule described in
subparagraph 3.4.3 (i.e., full volume SCR system monitoring with a downstream NOx
sensor).
3.4.2 Describe the NOx sensor or DEF system capable of detecting poor
reductant quality, including emission and dilution detection levels, and how the vehicles
will detect poor quality DEF and initiate Inducements, and require the installation of such
strategies.
3.4.3 Require the installation of the Second NOx Sensor and a new DOC or
DOCs (if necessary to ensure compliant emissions performance for 150,000 miles)
according to the following mileage intervals and schedule:
i. If, in the Proposed Emissions Modification, Settling Defendants
demonstrate durability of the current DOC for 90,000 miles, then Settling
Defendants must install the Second NOx Sensor and the new DOC at
90,000 miles or by January 1, 2020, whichever comes first, in a single
Subsequent Service Action.
ii. If, in the Proposed Emissions Modification, Settling Defendants
demonstrate durability of the current DOC for 120,000 miles, then Settling
Defendants must install the Second NOx Sensor and the new DOC at
120,000 miles or by January 1, 2020 whichever comes first, in a single
Subsequent Service Action.
iii. If, in the Proposed Emissions Modification, Settling Defendants
demonstrate durability of the current DOC for 150,000 miles, then Settling
Defendants are not required to replace the DOC and must install the
Second NOx Sensor in a single Subsequent Service Action beginning in
the 4th quarter of 2017, to be completed by January 1, 2020.
 

pkhoury

That guy with the goats
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Location
Medina, TX
TDI
2013 JSW, 2003 Jetta Ute, 2 x 2002 Golf, 2000 Golf
That really depends on what the vehicles are replaced with, though, and the individual driving cycle. There's some gasoline vehicles that do far better than the TDIs they could be replacing, while being even bigger and more versatile. (Which, I replaced an ALH with such a vehicle...)
But will they do far better when driven the same way? I returned a Nissan Sentra rental today. Driving it the way I do my Golf, I managed to get 14.5mpg, with a smaller engine. I can't imagine something bigger and more versatile doing as good or better than a TDI, unless you're driving it like a 90 year old...
 

pparks1

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2013
Location
Westland, Michigan
TDI
2013 Passat TDI SE
I think the sentra was broken. Or not actually full, so your calculation was off. I can drive a 1 ton pickup and get nearly 14.5

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
pkhoury: The trick is hybridization. (And not braking hard enough to activate the ABS, because that deactivates regeneration.) When braking puts energy into a battery that can accelerate you out of the next corner, that'll help fuel economy even if you are driving somewhat aggressively.
 

SuperDaveAPK

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 27, 2015
Location
Orlando, FL
TDI
2009 Jetta
Clean Air and Race Cars

Absolutely correct, you can turn any car into a race car and do with it as you please. It is your property.
But
The state you live in doesn't have to let you *register* your "used exclusively for competition" car (note I did NOT say "for off road use only")... and technically at that point it is no longer a "motor vehicle" subject to the clean air act. Since it is no longer a car governed by the clean air act, it's not required to be compliant.
From what I've read, the Clean Air Act applies to motor vehicles that become competition vehicles. It's just the EPA has chosen not to enforce it.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/motorsports/news/a28135/heres-what-the-epas-track-car-proposal-actually-means/
 

meerschm

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Location
Fairfax county VA
TDI
2009 Jetta wagon DSG 08/08 205k buyback 1/8/18; replaced with 2017 Golf Wagon 4mo 1.8l CXBB
There is a common misunderstanding that there is some wiggle room in the clean air act. (for racing, off road, .....)

there is not, (and this has been the case for at least 25 years)


Cars are authorized for sale in the US, based on testing and assertions that the meet then-current emissions standards. modifications from that configuration, or even not maintaining them (like add DEF) is a violation subject to penalties.


and SuperDave is almost right,

I would say it is that individual owners and racers who modify/delete emissions equipment have not yet risen high enough in priority (which is based for the most part on damage to environment and public health, despite conspiracy theories which may suggest alternate motivations) for enforcement actions.

it is not that the EPA has chosen not to enforce, it is that they do not have enough money, people or time to enforce every law, every place, every time.
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
So, it has always been illegal to take a certified engine or a certified car, and take them out of compliance for any reason. (Well, OK, destroying it is taking it out of compliance, and that's legal, but that also doesn't involve it emitting anything.) This includes off-road-only usage.

However, the EPA has historically not enforced that, as off-road emissions tend to be away from populated areas, and are a tiny portion (that isn't growing, because racing cars is expensive) of vehicle emissions. It's so far down the EPA's priority list that literal cow burps are a higher priority for them. (And I'm not using "literally" to mean "figuratively" about the cow burps.)

What's happened, however, is a massive industry of parts being made for "off-road usage", scare quotes included - test pipes for tricking O2 sensors, EGR deletes, DPF deletes, and the like. Now, who on this forum has had at least one of those parts, and has used it on-road? Almost everyone in this thread, probably, myself included (race pipe on an ALH).

So, that's why the EPA proposed regulation to make it explicitly enforceable to ban off-road-only emissions modifications that take a vehicle out of compliance. They even said that they weren't going to focus on enforcing against actual motorsport usage, but rather the parts suppliers that were selling parts for "off-road usage", when they couldn't actually prove that the supplier was knowingly selling them for on-road usage. (They have gone after diesel truck tuning companies that were provably doing that, mind you, already. But, when a business is entirely mail-order, they're not marketing a tow/haul tune (which is something that you'd use on-road), or if they do in-person tuning, they require that the vehicle be towed there and not have license plates... it's a lot harder to prove that they're selling for on-road usage.)
 

pkhoury

That guy with the goats
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Location
Medina, TX
TDI
2013 JSW, 2003 Jetta Ute, 2 x 2002 Golf, 2000 Golf
I think the sentra was broken. Or not actually full, so your calculation was off. I can drive a 1 ton pickup and get nearly 14.5
Well, in order to maintain 75-80mph on the Interstate and 70-75 on local highways, I had to keep the transmission in L, otherwise it would take a while to get up to speed, and I'd still lose it, unless I put my foot into it. And passing is damn near impossible without using L and flooring it.

I'm sure something is wrong with it, or the crappy CVT, because it had a CEL when I swapped it out at Hertz yesterday with a 2016 Hyundai Elantra (much nicer rental, IMO).

pkhoury: The trick is hybridization. (And not braking hard enough to activate the ABS, because that deactivates regeneration.) When braking puts energy into a battery that can accelerate you out of the next corner, that'll help fuel economy even if you are driving somewhat aggressively.
Ehh, kinda. Remember, I used to own a Prius before I owned a TDI. Before I sold it, fuel economy went down to about 36-39mpg, but I'd also drive it aggressively. Looking back, I have no idea why I bought it, with my driving style, other than the fact that new TDIs weren't sold in CA at the time.
 
Last edited:

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
I'm guessing if it was that bad, it had a bad O2 sensor or bad MAF or something.
 

AnotherPerson

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 24, 2015
Location
New Orleans
TDI
1999 Beetle
So, it has always been illegal to take a certified engine or a certified car, and take them out of compliance for any reason. (Well, OK, destroying it is taking it out of compliance, and that's legal, but that also doesn't involve it emitting anything.) This includes off-road-only usage.

However, the EPA has historically not enforced that, as off-road emissions tend to be away from populated areas, and are a tiny portion (that isn't growing, because racing cars is expensive) of vehicle emissions. It's so far down the EPA's priority list that literal cow burps are a higher priority for them. (And I'm not using "literally" to mean "figuratively" about the cow burps.)

What's happened, however, is a massive industry of parts being made for "off-road usage", scare quotes included - test pipes for tricking O2 sensors, EGR deletes, DPF deletes, and the like. Now, who on this forum has had at least one of those parts, and has used it on-road? Almost everyone in this thread, probably, myself included (race pipe on an ALH).

So, that's why the EPA proposed regulation to make it explicitly enforceable to ban off-road-only emissions modifications that take a vehicle out of compliance. They even said that they weren't going to focus on enforcing against actual motorsport usage, but rather the parts suppliers that were selling parts for "off-road usage", when they couldn't actually prove that the supplier was knowingly selling them for on-road usage. (They have gone after diesel truck tuning companies that were provably doing that, mind you, already. But, when a business is entirely mail-order, they're not marketing a tow/haul tune (which is something that you'd use on-road), or if they do in-person tuning, they require that the vehicle be towed there and not have license plates... it's a lot harder to prove that they're selling for on-road usage.)


The dpf stuff they could solve a lot of by making VW fix the design. All this cracked dpf stuff on the VW doesn't happen on ford or Chevy. I believe dodge still uses another system without a dpf. Ford has trucks out there with 200k+ miles without the dpf cracking. Some semi trucks out there are over 500k. Yet VW almost always dies right past 100k?
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI

64deuce

Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2016
Location
Philly, PA
TDI
'12 JSW
I have a TDI JSW with Stage 2 Malone and DSG Tune. I really don't see VW announcing a fix for the TDIs. They have 75K cars that will likely need a fix (85% removed with a buyout). Why would they invest engineering resources in a car that is already sold. I know they have announced a '17 TDI, but they have also announced an AWD JSW every year since I have owned mine. I would expect that in early 2018 they announce there is no fix and they are getting out of the Diesel Market in the US. Who will support these cars then if we need a HPFP or other engine needs. Orphan parts are never cheap.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
Couple of clarifications of the above post. First, the EPA wants VW to have 85% of the cars bought back OR repaired. The percentages of buybacks versus repairs are anyone's guess. And VW already has proposed fixes for all affected cars. They are subject to approval, of course, but it seems likely a fix will be available. If it's available at the same time as a buyback the percentages of repairs versus buybacks may change.

Second, VW has announced a GSW TSI with 4-motion for '17. No diesel.

Finally, and I know a bit about this, prices for parts for cars that are discontinued don't seem to increase much, if at all. Parts for cars from companies that are gone (like Saab) are more expensive.
 

RCC_TDI

Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2012
Location
Western PA
TDI
2010 JSW dsg
Unlike others, the way I read the settlement, pg7 line 27 defining eligible vehicles item 4, says that modified cars are excluded.
"(4) have not been modified pursuant to an Approved Emissions Modification."

Perhaps this is referring to the proposed fixes, and does not mean owner mods?
 

MacBuckeye

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2008
Location
North Carolina
TDI
2009 Jetta
Really would like to keep my car, but the buyback is probably the best option. Have enjoyed the DPF delete and Malone tune. Engine light remains on for some crazy glow plug / wiring harness issue the dealer can't seem to fix, but the car runs great. My local dealer is well aware of my modification. Had the hood repainted a few months ago. Car is in great shape for having 185K miles.

VW needs to keep in mind that if they do not take care of all of us who are affected by this, we may never purchase another VW. Think about that for a minute.. half a million TDI owners take the buy back and walk- to Honda, Toyota, GMC, etc. No new car sales. No scheduled maintenance. No service or repairs. No part sales. Nada! No $$ flowing into VW's pockets. That would be a HUGE hit, not to mention the hit they are taking now for this scandal.

I would hope VW makes a strong attempt and keeping us (or some of us) a VW customer. I'm not asking for a trunk full of cash. Just a fair buyback and perhaps a fantastic deal on a new VW; an offer too good to pass up. Otherwise, I'll take my $$ and go to Honda or where ever.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
Unlike others, the way I read the settlement, pg7 line 27 defining eligible vehicles item 4, says that modified cars are excluded.
"(4) have not been modified pursuant to an Approved Emissions Modification."

Perhaps this is referring to the proposed fixes, and does not mean owner mods?

The approved modification they are speaking of is the fix. They are basically saying you can't get both the fix money and the buyback money. Though if you are unhappy with the fix, you can still sell it back and receive the buyback amount minus the fix amount already received.
 

bloc

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2006
Location
Austin, Tx
TDI
2013 Touareg TDI
The approved modification they are speaking of is the fix. They are basically saying you can't get both the fix money and the buyback money. Though if you are unhappy with the fix, you can still sell it back and receive the buyback amount minus the fix amount already received.
Just to support this, the first definition in the court docs is as follows:

A. “Approved Emissions Modification” means a modification to an Eligible Vehicle approved by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and the California Air Resources Board (CARB) in accordance with Appendix B of the DOJ Consent Decree.








_____________________________________________________________
Other than this I can't find anything about modifications.
 

imurrx

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2012
Location
People's Republic of Massachusetts
TDI
2010 TDI Cup Street Edition
So, it has always been illegal to take a certified engine or a certified car, and take them out of compliance for any reason. (Well, OK, destroying it is taking it out of compliance, and that's legal, but that also doesn't involve it emitting anything.) This includes off-road-only usage.

However, the EPA has historically not enforced that, as off-road emissions tend to be away from populated areas, and are a tiny portion (that isn't growing, because racing cars is expensive) of vehicle emissions. It's so far down the EPA's priority list that literal cow burps are a higher priority for them. (And I'm not using "literally" to mean "figuratively" about the cow burps.)

What's happened, however, is a massive industry of parts being made for "off-road usage", scare quotes included - test pipes for tricking O2 sensors, EGR deletes, DPF deletes, and the like. Now, who on this forum has had at least one of those parts, and has used it on-road? Almost everyone in this thread, probably, myself included (race pipe on an ALH).

So, that's why the EPA proposed regulation to make it explicitly enforceable to ban off-road-only emissions modifications that take a vehicle out of compliance. They even said that they weren't going to focus on enforcing against actual motorsport usage, but rather the parts suppliers that were selling parts for "off-road usage", when they couldn't actually prove that the supplier was knowingly selling them for on-road usage. (They have gone after diesel truck tuning companies that were provably doing that, mind you, already. But, when a business is entirely mail-order, they're not marketing a tow/haul tune (which is something that you'd use on-road), or if they do in-person tuning, they require that the vehicle be towed there and not have license plates... it's a lot harder to prove that they're selling for on-road usage.)
The EPA has issued statements that they are heading towards making any modification to a certified engine and emissions illegal for off road use. It got some of my NASCAR friends upset that street cars modified for racing would not be legal (for all off road tracts).
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
The EPA has issued statements that they are heading towards making any modification to a certified engine and emissions illegal for off road use. It got some of my NASCAR friends upset that street cars modified for racing would not be legal (for all off road tracts).
EPA has already stated that they are abandoning this. The bills linked to above have the intent of making sure the EPA can never try to do it again.
 

64deuce

Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2016
Location
Philly, PA
TDI
'12 JSW
Wondering if I drop by car off for the 'fix' with a box of parts in the back (DPF + CAT) if they will just put the parts back on and de-tune.?
 

therabbittree

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 20, 1999
Location
Red Hook, NY USA
TDI
B4 passat, 2000 Golf, 2003 Allroad tdi
Lol they would probably cancel your warranty. Get you in trouble too, if they reinstalled the parts they would probably nickel and dime you for all little stuff, and labor. My even say your parts are unusable and charge u for new ones. Lol dealers are not your friends and will look to shift costs from them too you. Beware .
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
Wondering if I drop by car off for the 'fix' with a box of parts in the back if they will just put the parts back on and de-tune.?

I'd try getting on friendly terms with a manager, and ask them. My guess is that some would, and many wouldn't.
 

Mike_04GolfTDI

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 19, 2003
Location
Richmond, BC, Canada
TDI
Mine: 2019 Golf R DSG, Wife's: 2015 Golf Comfortline TDI
Wonder if they will accept if I return the my car with my factory dpf and egr in my trunk. At least I helped them out cause taking the factory dpf out is a *****. Lol
You're in Canada. All they're giving you is a toque and a letter that says they're sorry.
 

Rico567

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 13, 2003
Location
Central IL
TDI
2013 Passat TDI SEL Premium (Turned in 7/7/18)
Has anyone seen any specific info on how mods like dpf/egr delete and a tune would impact the VW buyback?
<snip>
Above is the OP, and it's been abundantly addressed in Threadzilla II. The settlement language is quoted there: As long as the car can be driven in to the buyback point using its own 2.0 L engine, it's considered operable. That is the definition of "operable" for the purposes of the legal language in the settlement. And if it's operable, it's turninable.

NB: and therefore it doesn't matter if your car has a DPF delete, a Malone stage 55.6 tune, and dilithium powered warp drive— it can be turned in.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
And others have asked how those same mods will affect the "fix" option. That is not clear at this point.
 

jims2321

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2013
Location
Sugar Hill, GA
TDI
2013 VW Jetta TDI 6mt, sold back, replacement 2017 Golf GTI Autobahn
The buybacks will as mention else where on this forum, have the ecu and engine destroyed, If I remember correctly. The rest of the car, should be parted for use on gasser versions of the Jetta/Golf/Passat. This is reasonable for two reasons.

1. VW will be able to recover some of the settlement money by selling the now inoperable cars to various parters to sell in the used/aftermarket parts business.

2. Less landfill space will be needed.

It kinda of blows the mind, the amount of money wasted so far, and yet to come over such a small percentage of cars on the US roads. Almost like a VW exec jumped on Gina McCarthy's desk, drop trousers and took a doogie on her blotter.
 
Top