Cyclonic action CCV Air/Oil separator fabrication

Turbo6.0L

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syncrolloydy

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Hi, I am looking at installing one of these to my AFN which I have tilted over at 50 degrees in a vanagon. Have you connected the drain to the engine yet? I would rather do this, but does it need to connect below the oil level (like the sump) or could I connect it to the old turbo return connection on the block? (my turbo oil returns to the vanagon sump, so the original turbo return connection is free) I was wondering if crankcase pressure would vent 'up' the drain on the oil separator? Can a one way valve be fitted on the drain?
Sorry for the questions, I am getting one of these separators, as it looks like the best and is much more available than the Porsche 924 or MB 240D versions (not to mention cheaper!) thanks for sharing :)
 

josh8loop

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I just bought one from eBay for $29.99 shipped. In case this link goes dead here is the users name deutschepartsusa, clickable links. I have just installed mine today. I will be starting school again next week and putting 400-500 miles on per week so I will be able to see how it is doing real quick. I will post up pics or a link to how my set up is, basically the same as Josh's.

That's really cool you installed it! I just drained my small oil collection container(the one attached to the cyclonic unit) after almost a full 10K miles and still got just over 1 ounce. I'm still pleased with the results, but couldn't help modifying it a bit :) I added a small handfull of stainless steel scouring pad(the kind with out soap added) in the line coming from the valve cover grommet and going to the separator. My hope is that the entrained oil vapors/droplets will collide with the loose packed SS scouring pad and assist the separation process. They use this type setup on the TDI valvecovers already:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEZzSUQONVA

This more closely packed SS mesh should do a more thorough job. I will update as I put more miles on this recent SS mesh mod :)
 
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79TA7.6

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I promised to show some pictures of my cyclonic CCV system. It is almost the same as Josh's, but I have not added a drain to the inter cooler. I also still need to add some hose clamps to my hoses. I found out the hard way that the old CCV grommet is brittle and can snap off. I was driving my car when all of the sudden I could smell a pretty rank smell. I pulled over to see oil all over my engine. I bought a new grommet and all has been well.

I plan to make a mount so that it will bolt to the air cleaner housing. For now it is just installed with zip ties. Once I get the mount made I should be able to get my engine cover back on. The hoses sit up too high and rub on the cover.


You can still see the mess I made of my engine when the grommet let loose.


Here you can see the catch can I am using. It is a baby food jar, the larger size. It is just resting there in place. Real easy to get to as you can see I removed in it for the next picture.


And here is how much oil I have accumulated over the last 5000 miles or so. Seems like quite a bit to me, but I am not sure how much it really is.


I have yet to remove my intercooler and intake hoses to see how clean they are. I am assuming this is helping, but time will tell.
 

josh8loop

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Thanks for the photos. I should have done some still photos and posted them myself :eek: Your install looks good, and all tubes are hooked up correctly. I did want to ask how tight the line to the bottom of the separator hooks on? I can't tell all that well, but the photo looks like that liquid drain line might be loose?
 

dieselfuel

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I promised to show some pictures of my cyclonic CCV system. It is almost the same as Josh's, but I have not added a drain to the inter cooler. I also still need to add some hose clamps to my hoses. I found out the hard way that the old CCV grommet is brittle and can snap off. I was driving my car when all of the sudden I could smell a pretty rank smell. I pulled over to see oil all over my engine. I bought a new grommet and all has been well.

I plan to make a mount so that it will bolt to the air cleaner housing. For now it is just installed with zip ties. Once I get the mount made I should be able to get my engine cover back on. The hoses sit up too high and rub on the cover.


You can still see the mess I made of my engine when the grommet let loose.


Here you can see the catch can I am using. It is a baby food jar, the larger size. It is just resting there in place. Real easy to get to as you can see I removed in it for the next picture.


And here is how much oil I have accumulated over the last 5000 miles or so. Seems like quite a bit to me, but I am not sure how much it really is.


I have yet to remove my intercooler and intake hoses to see how clean they are. I am assuming this is helping, but time will tell.
Where did you get the 90 degree fitting that you have coming out of the ccv valve cover hole? I need one of those.

Thanks,

df
 

josh8loop

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Right now the drain line is just slipped on. That is why I am saying I need to add clamps to all of my connections. This will eliminate the possibility of the smell coming from any of these lines.

Right, I gotcha. You may also want to do a degreasing/powerwash after you add the clamps that way you can tell if the smells are gone or not.
 

josh8loop

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Where did you get the 90 degree fitting that you have coming out of the ccv valve cover hole? I need one of those.

Thanks,

df

hi there DF!

I think he may have gotten them from NAPA. If it is the same fittings I use, I have to grind down quite a bit of plastic material from the elbow material on the valve cover grommet side before pushing it in so that it didn't cut the grommet in half. I believe they are 3/4" diameter.
 

dieselfuel

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Thanks, guys! I tried to use pvc fittings but without that lip, they were useless. I want to eleiminate the puck and go straight to my agriculture strainer to see if it cures the blue smoke on start-up and under heavy acceleration. I tcould just be my turbo with 189k miles. :>)

Josh,

So far your modified T-stat and the EVANS HDTC and working great. I've recently add a FrostHeater. I don't think it's increaded my fuel mileage, but I like starting a warm engine in cold air temps. Time will tell.

Thanks again for assembling those two T-stats for me. :>)

df
 

josh8loop

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Thanks, guys! I tried to use pvc fittings but without that lip, they were useless. I want to eleiminate the puck and go straight to my agriculture strainer to see if it cures the blue smoke on start-up and under heavy acceleration. I tcould just be my turbo with 189k miles. :>)

Josh,

So far your modified T-stat and the EVANS HDTC and working great. I've recently add a FrostHeater. I don't think it's increaded my fuel mileage, but I like starting a warm engine in cold air temps. Time will tell.

Thanks again for assembling those two T-stats for me. :>)

df

I would be wary of PVC fittings since it gets soft with elevated temps. I would imagine the HELP brand connectors and the NAPA ones that are made of the black automotive type plastic are up for the challenge. Really glad to hear the good results from the T-stat and HDTC combo :) It would be nice if you had some reports that indicate that fuel mileage went up because of them. Not sure if you have been able to determine that as of yet?
 

josh8loop

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They were the 3/4" elbows. I got them from O'Reilly's and if I remember right they were the HELP brand CCV elbows. I should have written down the part number, but I did not. Sorry.
Thanks for the confirmation on the size, and mentioning an additional source for the elbow. I am still trying to figure out how I can fabricate a bracket that will allow me to secure it to the existing vacuum pump hardware. It looks like I may be able to shorten my hoses up that go to the separator, and perhaps rotate the separator so the bottom outlet goes towards the fire wall. This will put the inlet/outlet line on a more level plane that may help eliminate the lines rubbing on the engine cover. That would also mean I would need to install an elbow or something on the separator drain that would bring the effluent towards the battery area where I can once again use my glass catch container.

Also, it appears that my addition of the SS scrubbing pad to the separator inlet is making a difference in separation efficiency. I've only had it on for a couple hundred miles but I am already seeing more liquid in my catch container than I normally would. Time will tell a more complete story however. Also I have been noticing that I am not seeing liquid oil in my clear Teflon tube that comes from the lower intercooler and emptys into my separator. I used to see slugs of oil every now and again that let me know it was working. I thought the line might be plugged, so I checked it all out and it wasn't plugged at all. My separator might be working well enough that slowly over time the accumulated oil in the intercooler is becoming non existent! This phenomeon has taken some time(15-20K miles) so don't expect over night results like this ;)
 
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SuperAdellic

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josh8loop, if you don't mind, can you post what part numbers you used for the intercooler oil bleed and where you got the parts from? I can find suitable tubing but finding the quick disconnect fitting hasn't happened yet. Thanks in advance.
 

josh8loop

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josh8loop, if you don't mind, can you post what part numbers you used for the intercooler oil bleed and where you got the parts from? I can find suitable tubing but finding the quick disconnect fitting hasn't happened yet. Thanks in advance.

I just tapped the lower intercooler at the lowest and most thick spot that I could find. You have to be SUPER careful when drilling the lower intercooler-A drill stop that only allows you to go in 1/4" deep would be recommended. I used a 1/8" Pipe Tap to make the threads and used a generic 1/8" MPT x 1/8" compression elbow fitting to hook up to the 1/8" Teflon tubing. I used some liquid Teflon pipe dope to seal the threaded fitting.
 

josh8loop

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Thanks for the confirmation on the size, and mentioning an additional source for the elbow. I am still trying to figure out how I can fabricate a bracket that will allow me to secure it to the existing vacuum pump hardware. It looks like I may be able to shorten my hoses up that go to the separator, and perhaps rotate the separator so the bottom outlet goes towards the fire wall. This will put the inlet/outlet line on a more level plane that may help eliminate the lines rubbing on the engine cover. That would also mean I would need to install an elbow or something on the separator drain that would bring the effluent towards the battery area where I can once again use my glass catch container.

Also, it appears that my addition of the SS scrubbing pad to the separator inlet is making a difference in separation efficiency. I've only had it on for a couple hundred miles but I am already seeing more liquid in my catch container than I normally would. Time will tell a more complete story however. Also I have been noticing that I am not seeing liquid oil in my clear Teflon tube that comes from the lower intercooler and emptys into my separator. I used to see slugs of oil every now and again that let me know it was working. I thought the line might be plugged, so I checked it all out and it wasn't plugged at all. My separator might be working well enough that slowly over time the accumulated oil in the intercooler is becoming non existent! This phenomeon has taken some time(15-20K miles) so don't expect over night results like this ;)


5K miles since I have added the extra stainless steel scouring pad material to the inlet tubing running to the cyclonic separator. This extra scour pad was added to help mechanically filter out oil droplets before going into the separator. So far it almost looks like I have doubled the collection amount that I would normally have collected by now. I will try to take a measurement and post the results. My OCI is 10K miles, and I usually have a little over an ounce in that time w/o the added SS pad material for reference.



I also wanted to make mention of a small issue I had with the 1/8" lower intercooler bleed line. I noticed that I wasn't seeing short oil slugs in the Teflon portion of that line and was curious if the line might be plugged. Normally I see small oil slugs and that lets me know it's actively removing oil from the lower IC. I just let it ride for a few weeks and checked again, and found that some milky substance was in the line. It looks like I may have condensed some water along the way, and once it mixed with the small oil slugs in that small diameter line it gummed it up a bit. The fix was to remove the 1/8" line, and use some carb cleaner(or brake cleaner) to blast it out until the Teflon section looked clean and clear. I wish now that I had used clear Teflon line for the whole assembly now for inspection purposes and also since it would resist plugging to a cetain extent. I also took the car for a ride with the lower IC bleed disconnected which blasted any remaining water/oil mixture on out of the IC.

I guess the point is that this thing is working extremely well at removing lower IC buildup while posing no drivability issues to the car. Checking/blowing out the lower IC bleed line would be a good idea every couple oil changes for my Florida climate, perhaps sooner in northern climates or just switch to a 1/4" Teflon tube and use a metering valve at the cyclonic separator to set the lower IC bleed flow;)
 
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josh8loop

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Oil collection without SS mesh installed is .00011 ounce per mile, and with SS mesh installed is .0002 ounce per mile. Looks like I've nearly doubled the separation efficiency by adding the loosely packed mesh. This is heading in the right direction!
 

Reddok

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I just installed the cyclonic separator on my TDI swap tonight. Hopefully it will stop the oil contamination on my MAP. Thanks for blazing the trail josh8loop!
 

josh8loop

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I just installed the cyclonic separator on my TDI swap tonight. Hopefully it will stop the oil contamination on my MAP. Thanks for blazing the trail josh8loop!
No problem, hope it helps you out a bit. Super cool swap you have going there! :) I would recommend adding stainless steel scouring pad/mesh to the inlet of the separator like I mentioned above. This is the kind you would find in Walmart in the cleaning section. Get the kind that you can pull apart gently and make sure it doesn't contain any friable shavings that could come loose. I'm about 1700 miles away from my 10K mile oil change and I will have some post SS scour pad installation oil separation numbers to share. What I can say is that the separation efficiency seems to have doubled since adding the SS scour pad material. FWIW :)
 
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josh8loop

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Ok, so I have the long awaited update after adding stainless steel scour pad mesh just upstream of my BMW cyclonic separator. If you remember I was separating a measly 1 ounce in 10K miles. Early visual indications were that adding the mesh was indeed increasing the oil separation efficiency by what appeared to be 100%. Today I measured the actual amount collected after this recent 10K mile interval and found it had removed 2.5 oz. That is 150% more than the standard pre SS mesh separation numbers. It looks like around .25 oz of that was liquid water. I never really accumulated liquid water in significant amounts before the SS mesh installation so the increased water separation leads me to believe that there is a strong physical and thermal interaction between the mesh and the CCV/lower intercooler bleed flow.
Lessons learned here is that the very simple and cheap addition of loosely packed SS scour pad mesh upstream of the cyclonic air/oil separator can increase the separation efficiency by 150%. Also, with the increased liquid water accumulation from the thermal effects of the mesh necessitate tubing insulation be added and tubing lengths be reduced to as short a length possible.
 

KLXD

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I'll bet that if you stuff the separator itself with the mesh it'll be even more effective.
 

josh8loop

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I'll bet that if you stuff the separator itself with the mesh it'll be even more effective.

Might be right about that however that will most likely negate the effect of cyclonic separation. There is most likely a sweet spot balance between the mechanical impingement separation components(SS scour pad) and the cyclonic separation components. Too much scour pad and the flow will be reduced increasing the CC presure, and reducing flow to the cyclonic separator. I will most likely inspect my SS scour pad after this recent 10K mile test and see if there is evidence of any funky buildup there. If all looks clear, I may install a bit more scour pad mesh-perhaps copper variety this time?

Overall I'm quite happy with the results-this also seems to explain why I am seeing less liquid oil being transferred from the bottom of my lower intercooler via the lower intercooler bleed line I installed. These are very good signs of a well functioning separator system.
 

KLXD

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That's my point. I think I mentioned it previously in this thread that I don't think the flow is fast enough for it to function as a cyclonic separator.

Maybe with the IC bleed it does but if it worked well you wouldn't need the IC bleed but then it might not work so you would need the bleed but then...

Some day I'm going to put a separator on my AHU but I plan to let it drain back into the pan through the lower vent.
 

trj

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Quote from post #74:
"This evening I ended up removing the "P" shaped rubber hose going to the EGR valve. Before I did the cyclonic separator and the lower IC bleed I would always have an nice oil film on the inside of the intake piping. This evening I noticed everything was clean and dry on the intake piping. Seems as though my CCV mods are working really well so far."


I know its been a while but for this thread but just a thought or two after reading through it.

If the inside of the rubber hose that leaves the EGR valve is staying clean and dry with the CCV connected to the BMW separator, maybe there is no oil coming from the turbo. If so the line to the bottom of the IC may not be necessary if drained initially of the accumulated oil? Can we prove the turbo is in fact a significant source of oil in the duct and IC?

Also wondering if the exhaust gas has any hard particulate that may be more harmful if it stays dry without the oil to capture and hold it to some extent in the induction system after the EGR valve?

Anyone still around on this thread?
 
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AndyBees

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The Turbo is a significant source of the oil that ends up in the charge pipe to the Inter Cooler on to the EGR system and Intake Manifold!

If you do an EGR mod via VCDS, it's cycling will be so insignificant that Intake crud build-up will be all but zero. And, considering ULSD is all that's available to burn and bio-diesel, soot will be insignificant ........... ain't had a problem since 167k mile point ..now at 352k miles with clean Intake manifold.....

Sure, there will always be some oil film inside the Turbo piping system..... some comes in via the CCV system off the valve cover... blow-by gasses contain some suspended oil mist ,,,,
 

trj

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The Turbo is a significant source of the oil that ends up in the charge pipe to the Inter Cooler on to the EGR system and Intake Manifold!

How do you know this? Have you tried to separate the two the way the OP has with an isolated CCV first and monitor what then goes to the IC (assumed from the turbo)? Just looking for quantifiable experience. He said it was "clean and dry" when he later checked it and the IC drain stopped producing oil. I am wondering if residual oil once it finally was cleared/removed in the IC did not continue to accumulate with just the CCV separator installed?
 
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