Bad Injector Pump, Worn Timing belt, Do I need a lawyer?

The Facts.
Yesterday while I was driving I experienced some power loss or transmission slipping accompanied by an increase in noise from the engine. I pulled into a parking lot and checked the things I could. The oil was at a normal level and has been changed at the proper intervals. Nothing was leaking and there was nothing hanging from the underside of the car. I could hear the turbo spinning up. I was less than two minutes from the closest dealership so I dropped it off last night. This morning I talked to the service manager who told me the injection pump is the cause of the noise and power loss, but that he does not believe my timing belt has ever been changed. My car is a 2001 Jetta TDI with an automatic Trans and has approx 68k miles on it. I purchased it Certified Pre Owned at 42k with the balance of the original warranty and an extended warranty.

The Fuzzy.
The service manager says that the timing belt should have been changed at 40k. I'm not sure if it's 40k or 60k.

The Questions.
I was hoping to keep my TDI well past 200k, will this situation drastically shorten the life of my car?
If the timing belt was never changed, does it mean I was sold a car that didn't have the proper maintenance completed on it?
Should I keep this car once the repair has been completed or should I start shopping for something that I can be sure has had the proper maintenance done at the proper times.

And finally, pending the outcome of the repairs and the clarification of the maintenance records.
Should I get a lawyer?

Any comments, answers or advice from past experiences would be appreciated. Help me out TDIclubbers!!

I'm sure an expert will correct me, but I believe that for your TDI the timing belt is 40k miles for the automatic, and 60k miles for the manual transmission. (my TDI has different numbers, I'm going by memory). So the timing belt may or may not have needed to be changed at 40k miles, but either way at 68k miles you were living on borrowed time.

Fortunately luck seems to be with you - the timing belt did not break, so it is just a matter of replacing it now. Make sure you get the 100k upgrade (a bunch of new parts), and while you are at it a new water pump as it is unlikely to last until the next timing belt change, and a problem with the water pump could take out the timing belt and a broke timing belt will destroy your engine.

Get the injection pump rebuilt. Generally they should last longer, but yours didn't. Did you use a fuel additive (power service or the like?). They claim that they will lubricate the injection pump and prevent failures. There is a big debate on if it really helps, and those who are interested in such things would like to know.

You are still looking at an expensive repair . Unless I missed something there is nothing but luck involved with it though. Hopefully there is no major damage.

I'm sure other will correct something I said.

The 02 timing belt is an 80K belt (I have an 02 auto also). I did mine at 68K cause it had a bad roller or 2 and was making noises. I got mine CPO with 47K and it was making the noise ever since till I changed it out. You should probably go ahead and just get it done even though you have another 10K on the recommended change. At 40K, you check it, same with 60K.

Is it a noise you're hearing from the injection pump area? I'm not sure I trust the dealer since they don't even know the timing belt intervals... all you have to do is go to the VW site and look! The injection pump may be an issue, but as far as the timing belt - that's not warranty work. Teh dealer here wanted $859 to do one, but I took it to a private shop where I take my 944 and they only charged $640 with all the rollers and water pump (dealer doesn't do all the rollers).

Try pulling the MAF sensor plug and see if it helps. If it does, replace the MAF ($80) and you're good to go. This will throw a CEL, but it'll go out after a few miles (took a day of driving for mine to go out)

The '01 automatics required a belt change at 40kmiles. So you will need a belt change (and it wouldn't hurt to go ahead and do the water pump depending on when you plan to do the next change).

You need to confirm what parts they use for the change. If they use the older parts, then you will need to change again in 40kmiles. If they use all the new parts (belt, tensioner, rollers) then you can go at least 80kmiles.

When it comes to 'certification', you would need to know if that meant that all required maintenance had been performed. I don't believe that it does, but if so then the selling dealer owes you the belt change.

What may have happened is that the pump slipped a tooth, causing you to loose power, be noisey and perhaps smoke like a chimney. This is not particularly harmful to the car, but hurts your wallet a bit more.

IMO a certified pre-owned car should have up-to-date maintenance. I asked about this when I was at the VW dealer prior to buying mine. I looked at a few used ones on the lot, and was told that all of them would come with 2 keys, 1 valet key, full VW maintenance history (all that is on their computers), and that everything was up-to-date and in working order. That is, they're as good as a new car, just have a few miles on them.

That said, if the timing belt was due at 40k, it should have been changed. If it was not, I'd say that they need to be changing it.
Unfortunately, this leaves what parts to use up to their discretion, same as changing the water pump.

>>he does not believe my timing belt has ever been changed.<<

You would need stronger "proof" than his belief in order to get the original dealer to pay for the change.

That said, I wouldn't select a VW dealership as my first choice to change the timing belt (and related parts!!!!!!!) As well, dealerships like to change pumps and turbos even when they're not really needed... so: get a 2nd opinion before spending any money !!!!

As others have said, the timing belt on a 2001 automatic is rated at 40,000 miles - unless it's one of the later production samples, with an engine number ALH 500,001 and higher... those are rated at 80,000 miles... That's the first thing to check (there's a sticker on the timing belt cover that has the engine number...)

Please look up the timing belt replacement parts lists at some of the fine vendors here:
http://www.dieselgeek.com/golf_iv_main.php or www.metalmaparts.com Also, please download Drivbiwire's fabulous how-to so that you know what needs to be done:
http://pics.tdiclub.com/pdf/a4timingbelt.pdf

Hopefully there's someone local to you who has experience with Vag-Com and timing belt changes who can chime in and possibly look over your car...

Good luck,

Yuri

on my CPO car, I wasn't really impressed. IT didn't even have the 40K service (a big one). I made them do this because it was a CPO and I knew the fuel filter was needing done and when I showed them that, they did the whole service for free. If you can get them to do the timing belt free (godo luck) do it!

Mine also had missing radio buttons (they replaced the radio only after I complained) and the timing belt was making noise but they wouldn't do anything about that even though it was a CPO.

I'll find out the complete service history on the car today or monday. I'm not really paying much out of pocket for the ordeal, about $350 is what I was quoted. What I'm really concerned with is the impact 28k miles on a worn belt will have on my engine in the future. Is this something that will drastically shorten the life of my engine?

A worn belt isn't a big thing as long as it doesn't break - then it's a huge problem. The thing that would add wear is if a pulley or roller in the timing system was to have a bearing go out.

Is this something that will drastically shorten the life of my engine?

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Nope, it's a diesel for gosh sakes, but if it breaks it will be real short

gottdi

There is nothing wrong with the car unless valves hit pistons. Doesn't sound like it.

It won't hurt the injection pump because it's just out of time. Re-timing the car, installing the new parts and it will all be fine. Make sure they use the upgraded parts though or you'll have to do it in 40K mile again.

Keep the car.

And legally you have a case against the selling dealer for the TB money you are out. CPO means it needs to be completely up to date on ALL service. It's in VW's own brochure on CPO cars. Total BS.

Bring it to the GTG on the 25th in Lake Mils and I can check it out for you and make sure they did it right.

>>I'm not really paying much out of pocket for the ordeal, about $350 is what I was quoted.<<

Are you saying that the dealer will replace the belt for $350 ????? What about his "diagnosis" of a bad injection pump ???

Please read what I wrote above concerning the engine number!!! If you have a late production model 2001, you have an 80,000 mile belt on there...

For that price, I guarantee that the dealer will only perform the most minimal of timing belt changes... I hope we don't see you here in 12,001 miles (After the warranty) in a thread titled "engine fell out of car" or "idler bearing failed... wrecked cylinder head" or similar... In addition, I seriously doubt that the dealer would use 2003 model-year parts rated at 100,000 miles...

I don't know how far you may be from one of the TDI-Club experts, but I would forget about dealerships and TDI's... for the most part...

Yuri.

Print off the list from Dieselgeeks web site for the deluxe kit and make them replace ALL the parts on the list. PERIOD.

Oh,

Make them show you EVERY USED PART so you know they aren't @#%^! with you.

The 2002 TDI timing belt change interval was 80,000 miles for a manual, 60,000 for an automatic.

TM

Tin Man said:

The 2002 TDI timing belt change interval was 80,000 miles for a manual, 60,000 for an automatic.

TM

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Not according to anything I've read... It's 80k no matter which transmission...

Yuri

I will be at the GTG on the 25th and would really appreciate any and all willing to take a look and give an opinion. The service manager said that the timing belt would be $350 because they were already doing the injector pump and it wouldn't be much extra labor to do the belt while they were at it. I'm still waiting to hear from the shop on how everything is coming out. I am going down to the dealership ASAP to speak with someone about the CPO issue.

ymz said:

Are you saying that the dealer will replace the belt for $350 ????? What about his "diagnosis" of a bad injection pump ???

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The pump is the primary repair, the belt was just added on when he got things apart and saw how bad the belt was. He said since it was apart adding the belt wouldn't take as much labor as normal. That's the reason for the low quote.

Should I get a lawyer?

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Only if you feel one is in need of care and feeding.

You only need a lawyer if someone has reneged on a contract. First, you have to find out if the Certified car status means it includes all required maintenance for the mileage of the car when you got it. Then--if it does say that--you have to find out if the belt is a "must replace" at 40K item, not a "check @ 40K". If it is, then you can challenge the dealer who sold you the car to make good on the Certified car claim. If they refuse, THEN you get a lawyer.

Just to clarify: Why would the tranny have anything to do with a timing belt interval and why is it only on the pre-01's??
http://www.bentleypublishers.com/tech/vw

2001 - http://www.bentleypublishers.com/images//tech/vw/vw.2001.maintenance.sched.pdf

2002 - http://www.bentleypublishers.com/images//tech/vw/vw.2002.maintenance.sched.pdf

THe transmission is important because the auto trans uses a bigger injection pump which puts more stress on the belt. After the '01s, the belt was upgraded to withstand the higher pressures longer.

At least that is what I recall gleaning from this site.

If I'm correct, you can say "thank$ Fred" for keeping this site up and running.

The automatics had a bigger pump with smaller injectors.

Don't ask why.

It's also why the automatics have a fuel cooler under the passenger side.

weedeater said:

The automatics had a bigger pump with smaller injectors.

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This was to meet emissions - finer atomization allowed it to meet some tests.

rdkern said:

This was to meet emissions - finer atomization allowed it to meet some tests.

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Why not do that with the manual tranny version too?

I believe it was the expected load/rpms. Autos often are at a lower rpm than 5-speeds? My wag.

As I have mentioned here many times in the past, VW CPO's can be real POS's. I can't count the number of Pre-Qualified (Sold through auction as a vehicle that can be certified for a franchised VW dealer only) TDI's that ran accross the VW/Audi auction block that have been whacked and repainted along with needing lots of recon. The only good thing about a CPO is it's warranty but, trust me, you are paying right up in the area that the sun doesn't shine for that. Later!

Just how does the vw tech know the pump is bad?

But if your getting free warranty work let them replace it.

But IMO they should check the intake for clogging, also the snow screen, and MAF sensor. and even the fuel filter. any or all of them can and will and has been proven to be common power loss problems with the TDI. much more than pumps going bad.

Free does not always work in one's best interest.

03_01_TDI said:

Just how does the vw tech know the pump is bad?
But if your getting free warranty work let them replace it.
.

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Free does not always work in one's best interest.
It can start a whole series of new problems... Never fixing the original one.

Frank M said:

Free does not always work in one's best interest.
It can start a whole series of new problems... Never fixing the original one.

Click to expand...

Good point. I'm sure anyone here would rather pay to have DBW change their TB than to let me do it for free.

Oky, news and more news. The injection pump and timing belt have been replaced and the car is running great. I will be bringing it to the Lake Mills GTG on the 25th to get it checked out by some of the pros though. =)

I did talk to the service manager a little more about the belt and he said he was 100% certain that the belt was original to the car. I'll be talking to the dealership I purchased it from and expecting them to cover the cost of the timing belt replacement. Thanks to everyone for your replies and your advice. I was able to walk into the situation with more knowledge and confidence than I ever would have been able to if I were left alone to research things. I'll keep this thread alive another week with my progress in getting my original dealer to own up to their mistake.
Again, I appreciate all the help.