Maybe I didn't do any further damage. I wanted to see if the cylinders remained dry. I got a little information from the PO today, and as it turns out, he didn't do any of the work on the car once it wouldn't start for him. He had a 'friend' work on it and that guy put the gasser fuel pump in. The PO didn't know where the fuel pump was or if it was ever wired up correctly, so I was/am kind of suspicious that some of this may have been self induced. I'm going to pull the glow plugs again tomorrow, just to see if the cylinders have filled some while sitting overnight. I guess I was a little impulsive and after hearing the concern of you more experienced guys, I'll to throttle back a little bit. I tend to 'hit it hard' when I actually have time to grab a wrench. Thanks for all of the encouragement and cautionary advice!
$300 350,000 mile tdi hydrolocked???
- Thread starter mk4mr
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jmodge
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2015
- Location
- Greenville, MI
- TDI
- 2001 alh Jetta, RC2 w/.205's 5speed daily summer commuter and 2000 alh Jetta 5spd swap, 2" lift, hitch, stage 3 TDtuning w/.216's winter cruiser, 1996 Tacoma ALh
#3 has the most oil in it because it’s the path of least resistance. If you’re going to start it at least pull the boost hose off of the turbo. That way it can’t pump oil into the engine and most likely you’ll see oil running out of it. Once you get rid of the cause of the oil, which is most likely the turbo, you could start it and see how it runs
jmodge
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2015
- Location
- Greenville, MI
- TDI
- 2001 alh Jetta, RC2 w/.205's 5speed daily summer commuter and 2000 alh Jetta 5spd swap, 2" lift, hitch, stage 3 TDtuning w/.216's winter cruiser, 1996 Tacoma ALh
Another precaution to take is to have the intake open when you start it and someone standing there with a large rag that can’t be sucked into it to the intake to plug it off in case the engine starts to run away. No air and it won’t continue to run.
BobnOH
not-a-mechanic
Actually that's the only reliable way to stop the engine once running, cut the air.
Rrusse11
Veteran Member
The ASV does exactly this, the EGR delete does remove the fail safe valve.
The only way to stop a runaway is to stall the car out in a high gear.
If you're comfortable with that fact, then deleting the exhaust gas
recirculation system cleans up and simplifies the intake system.
No regrets here.
I suspect the OP may have dodged a bullet when he got the car running.
csstevej
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2004
- Location
- north nj
- TDI
- 2001 golf tdi 4 door auto now a manual, mine, 2000 golf 2 door M/T son's,daughters 98 NB non-TDI 2.0, 2003 TDI NB for next daughter, head repaired and on road,gluten for punishment got another tdi 2001NB,another yellow tdi NB
You can do the stealth pipe mod and still keep the function of the asv safety valve.
I resisted the urge to start the car this evening, and with only brief opportunity to do anything at all on the car, but investigated my 491 degree coolant reading. I found that the connector was not even on the sensor. It was just hanging there. I pulled the sensor and inspected it. It's blue and black with a different connector than my gas cars have. I did at least have a new O-ring to put on it. After plugging it back up, I read accurate temperature. The gauge never showed high temp in any way, just the ecu reading. I drained the straight water out of the radiator. It was crystal clear. I put one bottle of coolant back in and if I manage to ever get it safe to run, I'll even the coolant mixture out. I had time to get a gallon of diesel to prime the injector pump with at some point after inspecting the turbo. It's likely going to pour rain all weekend, so it may be a while.
Thankfully I had read about runaway conditions in these cars when the EGR system is deleted, and had come across cutting the air supply if possible, so if there had been a run-away condition, maybe I would have had the clarity to cover the inlet tube which I did have open.
As always, thank you for the information and suggestions.
Thankfully I had read about runaway conditions in these cars when the EGR system is deleted, and had come across cutting the air supply if possible, so if there had been a run-away condition, maybe I would have had the clarity to cover the inlet tube which I did have open.
As always, thank you for the information and suggestions.
You really need to dig into it more before you try to run it for any longer. It's easy to bend rods with a hydrolock situation. Just because the car runs 'ok' now doesn't mean everything is ok on the inside. The bent rod will eventually snap and you'll be kicking yourself later.
gforce1108
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2006
- Location
- Newburgh, NY
- TDI
- 04 Jetta GLS BEW, 14 Audi A7 V6 TDI, 13 Porsche Cayenne V6 TDI
If you leave the intercooler connection at the intake disconnected - there is no way oil is going to get in there. Oil can still leak from the turbo into the exhaust or intercooler tubing, but can't get ingested. It'll be safe to run briefly while you are troubleshooting.
Genesis
Top Post Dawg
What gforce said -- BUT, do NOT rev the engine (and especially, do not operate it under load!) with the intake pipe disconnected. There's no backpressure on the turbo, which means it's speed is unconstrained.
However, if you do this and have reason to suspect the turbo is compromised (you do in this case given how much oil you drained out of that pipe) make VERY SURE you drain that pipe again. IMHO the odds are quite high you've got a dead turbocharger in the vehicle and I'd be inspecting that straight up, since if its bad and you intend to keep the car on the road you need to source and install a replacement (along with replacing the oil feed line.)
However, if you do this and have reason to suspect the turbo is compromised (you do in this case given how much oil you drained out of that pipe) make VERY SURE you drain that pipe again. IMHO the odds are quite high you've got a dead turbocharger in the vehicle and I'd be inspecting that straight up, since if its bad and you intend to keep the car on the road you need to source and install a replacement (along with replacing the oil feed line.)
Rrusse11
Veteran Member
"IMHO the odds are quite high you've got a dead turbocharger in the vehicle" Genesis
More than likely. There is NO advantage that I can see in running the engine.
You've verified that it turns over by hand, pull the turbo and find a used
replacement.
More than likely. There is NO advantage that I can see in running the engine.
You've verified that it turns over by hand, pull the turbo and find a used
replacement.
BobnOH
not-a-mechanic
What Russell says, because you can't test the function of the turbo without putting a load on it.
Might be helpful if you add your car to your profile so others can more easily catch up on the thread and help.
Might be helpful if you add your car to your profile so others can more easily catch up on the thread and help.
KrashDH
Top Post Dawg
I'm deleted, and this is exactly what I'd have to do if the situation arose. Honestly though, I've done it a couple times on accident when I've missed my gear, but I've also done it on purpose to know the feel and wouldn't hesitate in the situation
gforce1108
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2006
- Location
- Newburgh, NY
- TDI
- 04 Jetta GLS BEW, 14 Audi A7 V6 TDI, 13 Porsche Cayenne V6 TDI
The advantage is figuring out if the motor is trashed before spending the time and money installing another turbo - which I would about guarantee is needed. My ex's Beetle had a mild run-away when the turbo crapped out. Dumped about a cup of oil out of lower intercooler hose. I pulled the glow plugs and cranked, then reinstalled and fired it up with no intake manifold to make sure it ran good. Then I pulled my kp39 off my 04 (and bought a 17/22 for it) and did a hand-me-down.
When I bought this car years ago - it had also suffered a run-away, overheat melt pistons event. Rebuilt motor and installed a used turbo - smoked like a freight train!!!
When I bought this car years ago - it had also suffered a run-away, overheat melt pistons event. Rebuilt motor and installed a used turbo - smoked like a freight train!!!
Genesis
Top Post Dawg
Yep -- I would DEFINITELY pull the head before buying anything. If there's evidence of bent rods (measure protrusion) then you have a decision to make before proceeding. While there's some work involved in doing that, if you don't and lose the bet you're going to be quite unhappy unless you happen to have a spare turbo, oil line, etc laying around.
Hi! Thanks for joining in! I fully agree and understand what you mean. I guess I fully expect there to be damage, but I'm trying to find out where I stand. I will have to be a little more patient though, and wait until I can do more investigations. I just felt like I needed to know if the engine was actually locked up or not. I've kicked myself many, many times...haha.
I don't know what this mod is, but I'll be looking it up! Thanks!
Hey there! Thanks! I kinda felt like I'd broken a rule by starting it, but I do understand the concern, and I'm thankful to have people warn me. I do on the spot breakdown equipment repair for a living, and have developed an approach based on speedy recovery, so it often carries over into my personal projects as well...and that's not to say it's good, but I often do it. I'm trying to be careful as I also try to determine which direction I'm going on the car. I'd love to save it and drive it, but I don't want to spend thousands to do it. There was oil in the bottom of the intercooler, but the piping from there was not too bad in my opinion.
Hello! That makes sense. The only oil I've drained is what was in the bottom of the intercooler. I don't know a lot about turbo chargers, especially on a diesel. I'm suspicious of the turbo as well, but weather has prevented me from getting into that far. Thanks for the revving warning...I'll remember that.
Yes, I'd also much rather put a car back on the road than to part it and scrap the leftovers. This car has a lot of miles, but, who knows....it may have had the engine replaced or overhauled at some time, so I'm not thinking too much about the numbers on the dash. Heck, maybe the turbo is recent...I mean....it's possible, right? This will not be a car for resale profit. If I can make it run, I'll be behind the wheel for a while.
Where do you resource parts for your VWs?
I understand what you're saying. I hate to ask such an elementary question, but once I get access to the turbo...what are my immediate signs of its condition? I'm confident that it would be obvious if the impeller fell out into my hands, but what about less obvious(to a turbo diesel newbie) signs? Any oil on the outlet side means bad turbo? Shaft play... or ?? I'm not sure exactly what is ok and what is not.
Fortunately, I can still turn the crank bolt by hand, so at least nothing it bound. Looking for any positives here.
Ok, thank you. I'm not a 'forum' guy...so I'm still learning my way around.
Greetings! Personally, I would never have deleted the EGR until I was familiar with the setup, but here I am with a car that's already had it done. I don't know if it's caused any issues that lead up to where things are now or not. I'd rather have started out bone stock.
Yes, this has kind of been my approach with the car. I have 5 other Mk4's, but none are diesel. I've had hopes of eventually getting one and I came upon this one. Based on my $$ it is important for me to find out how much it will take to make this car a road car again. I know there is no doubt that it can be road car again, because it is nice enough, but if it's gonna be an unwise amount needed to get it there, I'd be better off waiting for another one that needs less. I guess there's a fine line between taking some risks and being all out reckless. I'm trying to be cautious and trying to find out some basic things. I have learned a lot already about precautions with these engines/systems. Maybe I haven't screwed anything up.
I do agree.
Bent rods would mean less compression, I think, right? I don't have a compression gauge/tester that'll handle diesel levels, but I'll look into getting one. If I find low compression, I'll likely either stick another engine in it or just pull the trans for one of my other cars and still not be at any loss. I hope it's not like that though. I'm hoping it's not too far gone to justify. No, there are zero spare diesel parts lying around here, that's for sure.
Rrusse11
Veteran Member
I understand what you're saying. I hate to ask such an elementary question, but once I get access to the turbo...what are my immediate signs of its condition? I'm confident that it would be obvious if the impeller fell out into my hands, but what about less obvious(to a turbo diesel newbie) signs? Any oil on the outlet side means bad turbo? Shaft play... or ?? I'm not sure exactly what is ok and what is not.
Fortunately, I can still turn the crank bolt by hand, so at least nothing it bound. Looking for any positives here.
Disconnect the downpipe/exhaust flange, remove hoses from the turbo inlet
and outlet. The turbo is part of the exhaust manifold that bolts to the back
of the block. I think it's 6mm allen bolts that hold it on. Get it loose and
disconnect the oil feed lines, and vacuum line to the actuator.
Remove the whole assembly, others please feel free to chime in if I've missed something,
I've only ever done it once.
Put it on the bench and start studying, it's quite an amazing piece of engineering.
The exhaust drives the wheel that turns the shaft that drives the turbine
that compresses your intake air. The journal bearing between the 2 wheels is a
likely culprit for your oil leak. The turbocharger is the heart and soul of a TDI, it's how
you can make all that HP out of a little 4 cylinder.
The VNT mechanism, variable nozzle technology, adjusts the amount of
air that gets compressed, that's what the actuator controls.
This is a very basic explanation of what's going on, I'm no mechanic,
but until you get a handle on the turbo, how it works and what it's doing,
I suggest you won't make much progress with a TDI.
After that, injection of fuel, pistons and rings et al is pretty straightforward engine stuff.
The high pressure fuel pump is just that, a fuel pump, but operating, like
the engine compression, at much higher levels than a gasser.
The injectors have teeny tiny little nozzles that atomise the fuel, there is NO spark to ignite, just pressure.
Sorry to be so basic, but it took me a while to get a handle on how a diesel
works. Once the motor runs, the rest of the systems, transmission, brakes, etc are like any other car.
But pressures and tolerances on the key components of getting that motor going are very different to your normal gas engine.
I, and I'm sure others here, have used parts. Your turbo may well be in
pieces, I've got a couple old VNT15s for example. You may, or may not,
need one. At least on the bench you'll be able to give it a good clean,
check shaft play, and the condition of the vanes.
I gather your job needs you to get stuff going right away!
Unfortunately the bull in the china shop approach may have
you breaking stuff unnecessarily. A little more tortoise and a
little less hare in this case will get you there for less money and work.
csstevej
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2004
- Location
- north nj
- TDI
- 2001 golf tdi 4 door auto now a manual, mine, 2000 golf 2 door M/T son's,daughters 98 NB non-TDI 2.0, 2003 TDI NB for next daughter, head repaired and on road,gluten for punishment got another tdi 2001NB,another yellow tdi NB
If you do pull the turbo be prepared to snap the oil feed line at the turbo.
It has a habit of the nut getting stuck to the fitting in the turbo.
When you go to loosen the line at the turbo it just twists off the line .
They make a stainless steel braided line that works, or you can replace it with a new one.
I usually put some high temp anti size on top of the flare where the nut spins on.
I also ground down a flare wrench to counter hold the bottom fitting while loosening the line nut.
It has a habit of the nut getting stuck to the fitting in the turbo.
When you go to loosen the line at the turbo it just twists off the line .
They make a stainless steel braided line that works, or you can replace it with a new one.
I usually put some high temp anti size on top of the flare where the nut spins on.
I also ground down a flare wrench to counter hold the bottom fitting while loosening the line nut.
Thank you once again! I'll check this out!
Great information! I'm not the guy who would ever complain about receiving basic information. It's better(in my opinion) to hear something again than to have never heard it altogether. Getting information twice won't hurt you, but not getting information at all...now that makes things much harder. So, don't ever think it's too basic to say...to me anyway... In training new techs at work, I'll give them ALL the basics...I remember feeling very uncomfortable when I was starting out when someone assumed I knew more than I did.
I am an electro-mechanical maintenance tech for Nissan USA. I'm in a vehicle manufacturing facility and wear a 2-way radio and wait for something to stop working(automated equipment) Downtime is crucial and very costly, so I have just taken on some of the 'trade' habits here at home I guess. I kills me to not get to the bottom of what's going on here. But, it's all good. I can always develop better habits, right?
I will be limited by rain for a while it appears, so I can research in the meantime. I have a funny feeling that there is a fuel issue here(probably turbo too). I don't know if the 'friend' put a lift pump in the car, or a standard gasser fuel pump. I haven't looked at it closely to see if there are part numbers to be cross-referenced. I don't know what the IP would do with that much pressure if it's a standard pump in the tank. Whatever came out of the cylinders with the glow plugs removed, while black, was thinner than just oil. I don't know how excess fuel could get past the injectors as it seems to take a great deal of pressure to get atomized fuel from them(via videos I've watched). Something just seems odd here.
Thank you for the information. I'm processing.
Is it beneficial to soak it with penetrant or maybe use heat?
Are you talking about nickel anti-seize?
Thanks for the heads up!