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Old April 20th, 2018, 09:15   #31
turbobrick240
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I don't know...., VW seems to have finally read the tea leaves. At least based upon their recent investments in EV production. Tesla has had production problems from day one, yet they seem to have no problem solving those problems and moving forward.

I think the whole buy Musk a couch thing was just for a laugh. Some of the tesla true believers can definitely be a bit extreme, but that's just par for the course. I'm sure the true skeptics will still be crying about one thing or another even when Tesla is cranking out a million cars per year.
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Old April 20th, 2018, 15:48   #32
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Haters are gonna hate.
Musk seems like someone with the too-rare combination of innovative ideas and
the means to implement them.
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Old April 20th, 2018, 16:00   #33
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It seems to me that automotive manufacturers have been reading the 'tea leaves' correctly to their benefit by selling more and more gasoline powered inefficient SUVs and trucks. Less sedans, more SUVs. That is a trend for sure. Is it a ripe time to sell a somewhat affordable electrical SUV to the masses for road trips (in addition to city driving)? I don't think so. Until we get there the void can be filled with guess what: an SUV with a light duty diesel engine

Why we keep insisting that current diesel cars have to compete with EV. At the moment one is suited mostly for the highway and the other is great for city driving.

What's wrong with this scenario besides that the average American is not interested in efficiency unless the price of fuel goes so high (and we are not there currently)?
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Old April 20th, 2018, 16:23   #34
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So, when is the new model diesel engine going to be available in the States? That's all I care about.
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Old April 20th, 2018, 18:30   #35
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I have heard it said that 50 of these container ships make more polution than all the world's cars. They burn a fuel 1 step up from crude [bunker fuel]. At least most of this is at sea, not on our roads or in our cities.
Given that pollution from China can be detected and measured on the US West Coast, where particulates are vented into the atmosphere isn't a very good argument. Not that marine diesels aren't pretty dirty. Ask where they flush their tanks and dump the bilge water.
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Old April 20th, 2018, 19:44   #36
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Nobody yet has addressed the issue of battery life in the cold. If you want half descent range in the winter you need to keep your EV in a heated garage both at home and at work.

Read about a "cannon ball run" in a Tesla. They wore snowmobile suits and blankets to stay warm because using the cars heater wouldn't leave enough range. How many daily drivers are going to go for that?

Don't get me wrong. I like the idea of an electric vehicle. But you need to be realistic about the capabilities.
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Old April 20th, 2018, 21:42   #37
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How many driver's daily commute consists of the Cannonball Run? You won't see many Ford Explorers running at 24 hours of Le Mans (maybe Le Mons)for that matter. I think the odds that VW will bring any tdi cars back here are somewhere between 0 and 1%.
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Old April 21st, 2018, 04:16   #38
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Originally Posted by turbobrick240 View Post
How many driver's daily commute consists of the Cannonball Run? You won't see many Ford Explorers running at 24 hours of Le Mans (maybe Le Mons)for that matter. I think the odds that VW will bring any tdi cars back here are somewhere between 0 and 1%.
Well lets bring it closer to realism then. There is a gentleman who works for Macdon in Winnipeg who can only get a round trip from Portage La Prairie to work and back on days when the temperature isn't below freezing. That's a 110 mile commute round trip.

I agree with your odds but the odds of present electric cars being practical in cold climates is even less.
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Old April 22nd, 2018, 08:32   #39
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For the time being you might need both vehicles in your garage for functionality and redundancy: an EV and a diesel.

Problem solved :-)
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Old April 22nd, 2018, 09:52   #40
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To me, the European market regulations and the US market regulations have it exactly backwards.

Europe, in general, is a place where you can have one car, and that car can be designed for city/urban/suburban driving (i.e. electric). That's possible because of excellent public transportation, and distances between cities that are shorter, relative to the US. Drive the electric on a daily basis, then take longer trips on public transport. The focus in Europe should have been on electrics all along, but it was on Diesels.

In the US, an electric-only vehicle only makes sense for those who live in an urban/suburban area, and never leave. Given our lousy public transportation infrastructure and longer distances between cities, electrics only make sense for a very small portion of the population. Cars end up being daily drivers AND weekend getaway tools. The focus should have been on Diesels all along, but now it's on electrics.

That's not even accounting for temperature impacts on battery life. Add that in, and electrics make sense largely only in coastal cities from the mid-Atlantic, stretching around the coasts and warmer areas to Seattle. Problem is, in many of those crowded areas (particularly here in California), housing costs force a lot of people into long commutes...not good for electrics. Public transport being lousy, those people then drive to work in whatever they can afford.

My personal situation is a little different...if I could work where I lived, an electric would make a heck of a lot of sense, IF I never left the area. I looked hard at a Bolt (and Volt), but it made no sense for me and my 225 mile round-trip daily commute. The Bolt wouldn't get me home from work, having a realistic range of 150-170 miles on the highway. A Volt would run on electricity for less than 1/4 of my daily drive, then I'd have a car getting 38 mpg, so the overall fueling costs make no sense, especially when paired with a high initial purchase price. I had a Prius, and it was great around town...better than the Jetta TDI. Smooth, quiet, and very efficient once the gas engine warmed up. But on the highway, it wasn't so great, and that's where I drove it all the time, every single day. The switch to the TDI was a no-brainer for me...low purchase price (it was a buyback car), great warranty, great fuel economy (although not quite as good as the Prius), and a MUCH better car for highway driving.

I've been doing a lot of reading on fuels over the past few months, and I think that renewable Diesel is very promising (specifically, fuels like Propel Diesel HPR), and could be the way that allow Diesels to continue to exist, especially in California. Less soot, which means fewer regens and longer DPF life, and lower NOx emissions, requiring less urea. But that's only if renewables that are compatible with DPF/Urea systems and high pressure fuel pumps & injectors can expand more broadly than their current market areas.

I'm hopeful that Diesel emissions tech will continue to improve, but I think that has to be paired with moving away from dino fuels and into renewables. So I'm glad to hear VW is talking about Diesels again.

Having said all that, I need to take a break from the internet and go pump some dead dinosaurs into my tank so I can get to work for the next couple days. Cheers!
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Old April 22nd, 2018, 18:08   #41
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Wink agreed - same goes for us Western Canadians

Agreed - our circumstancesm, distances between cities don't make for a viable electric market. There is still room for the gas-electric and diesel-electric hybrids in our neck of the woods. Full out electric can't handle the distances that I drive on a daily basis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by soldierguy View Post
To me, the European market regulations and the US market regulations have it exactly backwards.

Europe, in general, is a place where you can have one car, and that car can be designed for city/urban/suburban driving (i.e. electric). That's possible because of excellent public transportation, and distances between cities that are shorter, relative to the US. Drive the electric on a daily basis, then take longer trips on public transport. The focus in Europe should have been on electrics all along, but it was on Diesels.

In the US, an electric-only vehicle only makes sense for those who live in an urban/suburban area, and never leave. Given our lousy public transportation infrastructure and longer distances between cities, electrics only make sense for a very small portion of the population. Cars end up being daily drivers AND weekend getaway tools. The focus should have been on Diesels all along, but now it's on electrics.

That's not even accounting for temperature impacts on battery life. Add that in, and electrics make sense largely only in coastal cities from the mid-Atlantic, stretching around the coasts and warmer areas to Seattle. Problem is, in many of those crowded areas (particularly here in California), housing costs force a lot of people into long commutes...not good for electrics. Public transport being lousy, those people then drive to work in whatever they can afford.

My personal situation is a little different...if I could work where I lived, an electric would make a heck of a lot of sense, IF I never left the area. I looked hard at a Bolt (and Volt), but it made no sense for me and my 225 mile round-trip daily commute. The Bolt wouldn't get me home from work, having a realistic range of 150-170 miles on the highway. A Volt would run on electricity for less than 1/4 of my daily drive, then I'd have a car getting 38 mpg, so the overall fueling costs make no sense, especially when paired with a high initial purchase price. I had a Prius, and it was great around town...better than the Jetta TDI. Smooth, quiet, and very efficient once the gas engine warmed up. But on the highway, it wasn't so great, and that's where I drove it all the time, every single day. The switch to the TDI was a no-brainer for me...low purchase price (it was a buyback car), great warranty, great fuel economy (although not quite as good as the Prius), and a MUCH better car for highway driving.

I've been doing a lot of reading on fuels over the past few months, and I think that renewable Diesel is very promising (specifically, fuels like Propel Diesel HPR), and could be the way that allow Diesels to continue to exist, especially in California. Less soot, which means fewer regens and longer DPF life, and lower NOx emissions, requiring less urea. But that's only if renewables that are compatible with DPF/Urea systems and high pressure fuel pumps & injectors can expand more broadly than their current market areas.

I'm hopeful that Diesel emissions tech will continue to improve, but I think that has to be paired with moving away from dino fuels and into renewables. So I'm glad to hear VW is talking about Diesels again.

Having said all that, I need to take a break from the internet and go pump some dead dinosaurs into my tank so I can get to work for the next couple days. Cheers!
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Old April 22nd, 2018, 19:45   #42
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People who commute over a hundred miles each way to work will really benefit a lot from autonomous cars. That's a pretty solid chunk of the day to essentially be unproductive.
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Old April 23rd, 2018, 03:58   #43
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Originally Posted by turbobrick240 View Post
People who commute over a hundred miles each way to work will really benefit a lot from autonomous cars. That's a pretty solid chunk of the day to essentially be unproductive.

My daily drive consists of listening to audio books (I read a lot, this is just an additional way to do so) as well as a safety valve as a stress reliever (I usually take a long way home, with winding two lane roads).

Some of us actually enjoy driving... I know that sounds crazy to folks that don't.

And this weekend, like many (most) weekends, I took my son out for a two hour drive through the country.... just for fun. He enjoys it, too.
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Old April 23rd, 2018, 05:19   #44
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My daily drive consists of listening to audio books (I read a lot, this is just an additional way to do so) as well as a safety valve as a stress reliever (I usually take a long way home, with winding two lane roads).
Some of us actually enjoy driving... I know that sounds crazy to folks that don't.
And this weekend, like many (most) weekends, I took my son out for a two hour drive through the country.... just for fun. He enjoys it, too.

Audio books are a good way to make the best of the situation. I like to think of myself as one of those driver's that really enjoys the driving experience- but when I take long road trips, I find myself appreciating the cruise control. When the day comes that cruise control can actually safely drive the car, I'll probably make use of it. Though the idea of cars with no steering wheel at all does make me cringe a bit.
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Old April 23rd, 2018, 05:25   #45
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I use cruise on long road trips for sure. A little bit miffed my Sprinter does not have cruise, and the issue of adding it seems to be a puzzle of equal difficulty as getting a straight answer on trailer wire harness installation. Both of which were items I picked on the one I ordered that I ended up having to give up waiting for.

My wife hardly ever uses cruise control, funny. We are taking the Sprinter on a cross country trip next year, maybe I will make her do a lot of the driving.

I may have gotten it installed by then, though.
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