Starting Problem Solved?

Well, the dealer's had my newfrijo for two days trying to solve my '98 TDI NB starting problem. For details of my original problem, pls see http://forums.tdiclub.com/NonCGI/Forum3/HTML/001163.html (basically, TDI would start first time, then if engine stopped after one minute driving/idling, I couldn't restart the engine for 10-15 minutes).

I went in armed with about 20 pages of printouts from various NB lists and forums on the Net...previously, they had looked at it twice, and not been able to pinpoint any problems. They told me to "wait until it got worse"! That was back in August 1999.

Dealer claims the problem's been solved. He replaced:

-the "engine coolant sensor" (the part that tells the engine that it's still cold)
-the glow plug relay, even though it was already replaced a year ago per the VW bulletin
-the power supply relay #109

The dealer felt the engine coolant sensor was the main reason for my starting problems (ie. faulty coolant sensor told the glow plugs that the engine was warm, when really it wasn't. Result was that the glow plugs did NOT light up when needed, when I started the engine that second time, when the engine was still cold).

He said it was NOT the fuel cut off valve, because when the engine did finally start up, there was a lot of smoke, and very strong diesel smell, which meant that the engine was flooded with diesel. Sorry, GaryB, I know you wanted that to be the problem ;-)))

I'm so happy that the problem seems to be solved. I'll let you all know if I have any further problems.

btw, the dealer gave me a '99 Jetta to drive during the two days, which was really great of them! It was weird to see the gas needle move so fast, though ;-))

Happy Holidays Everyone!


Bill


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Bill - '98 NB TDI

Ric Woodruff had the same problem with relay #109. You're in good company. (Well, sort of. )

-mickey

Unfortunately, my TDI "second-start" starting problem has reared it's ugly head again.

A recap of how the problem can be duplicated:

1. Insert key, wait for glow plug dashlight to go out.
2. Crank and start engine.
3. Drive off after 30 second warm up
4. Drive for one minute
5. Shut off engine
6. Remove key from ignition
7. After 30 seconds, try starting the engine again.
8. ENGINE WILL NOT START
9. Engine will crank over strongly, but will not start (almost as if it's not getting fuel). The battery and alternator's been tested by the dealer. Fuel filter's been changed. I use REDLINE fuel additive, and I'm in a garage, temp. about 45F. It will eventually start after 5-15 minutes of cranking over.

So...it's nothing to do with washing my car, as I previously thought. It was just a coincidence, since I would start my car for a minute, to pull it into the car wash spot, and then shut it off. (I've washed my car weekly like this for the past 10 months with no problems).

This starting problem doesn't occur if I drive for 15 or 20 minutes, and then try to restart. Normally, I will drive to two or three different worksites in the course of my work day, and have not had any problems.

I've had about 6 people who own '98 TDI NB's perform the above test, and they can start the second time without any problems, so I've ruled out the possibility that "It's a feature."

This starting problem is starting to turn into a real worry. For example,if I stall in traffic during warmup, I won't be able to start up again...a definite safety hazard! Also, our two car garage fits two cars, BUT one in front of the other, so when I move cars, it won't start again.

The engine will start the first time in the morning, EVERY TIME. It's just the second start up. Another thing, last week, I moved my car at lunchtime, and after I shut it off, I couldn't start it up again. Weather was sunny, temperatures in the 40-45degrees F. So, I left it parked there for 6 hours until after work. I still couldn't start it up...so whatever was wrong, still DOESN'T reset itself after 6 hours.

Finally, after I had this problem today, I tried cycling the ignition switch until the glow plug light went on, and out, for 2 or 3 times. Then, when I tried to start up the engine, it started up RIGHT away! Can anyone tell me what cycling the ignition key / Glow plug light, does? Maybe it was just my imagination, but I don't think so.

Outside temperatures are about 35 degrees F, I've got a full tank of fuel, 45 cetane, I've got Power Service in the tank.

Anyone have any suggestions? I'm still waiting to hear back from the dealer, but I really need some ideas to help them trouble shoot this problem!

So far, the dealer's had my car for about 2 weeks, and they've replaced:

glow plug relay
power supply relay (Relay 109)
coolant temperature sensor
the ECU (!!!) I think this was their last reort.

They've also checked:

wiring for relays
re+i ECM (same as ECU???) to check wiring
check wiring for engine compartment


If somebody could tell me what cycling the ignition/glow plug light, does, that COULD be the key, since it seems to start up quickly and normally after I did that.

This problem first occurred in August 1999, and I'm getting worried that the dealer won't be able to fix the problem. I'd appreciate any suggestions.

Other than that, I LOOOOOOOOOVE the TDI engine )

Thanks Everyone!


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Bill - '98 NB TDI

Start doing some research on your state's Lemon Law. Many state's LL kicks in after 3rd attempt to fix fails.

On the older VW's Cycling the key would initiate a 1.5 second burst from the fuel pump. This would allow vehicles suffering from vapor lock to operate. I am not suggesting that you are suffering from vapor lock, but possibly fuel pressure is draining down too quickly?

When we talk about cycling the ignition in a TDI it refers to initiating the glowplug circuit, then immediately reinitiating the glowplug circuit. This was beneficial in the old VW diesels when it was very cold outside.

Now it seems cycling the TDI glowplus is redundant and may be counter productive. You say you have recycled the glowplugs and it has helped you?

Cycling the glowplugs a second or third time can be helpful in extreme cold because it'll heat up the cylinder head. But in the kind of temperatures we're talking about here (mid 40s) you don't need glow plugs AT ALL. I've jumped in and started my '99 NB in temperatures in the 20s without pre-glowing (brain fart!) and the car started right up. It ran horribly for several seconds, but it started. You're engine is not getting fuel for some reason.

Now, let's look at possible "re-start" related reasons why that might happen. What needs to "reset"? Well, it ain't the injector pump. It just does whatever it's told, and in the absence of any electronic control it'll still deliver fuel in a "limp home" mechanical-only mode. Is it the injectors? Again, no. They'll deliver fuel as long as there's fuel to be delivered. How about the sensors? In most cases, a faulty sensor will not cause the engine to fail. The ECU will use any one of several "limp home" modes to compensate for the lack of sensor readings. There are one or two sensors without which the engine will not function at all, though. But you'd get an error code and a Check Engine light. I think you can probably rule out anything under the hood, including the glow plugs and their relay. Without any glow plug assist at all your car should start just fine above 40 degrees F.

So, what's inside the passenger compartment that could cause this problem? Relay 109 (the exact function of which I don't actually know) and the ECU itself. This sounds like an ECU glitch to me. I'm surprised they didn't replace it in the first place!

-mickey

p.s. A long shot: Clutch safety switch.

Next time, hopefully your Bettle won't take too long to start to get ready, to begin to commence!

On a serious side, as JeffT said, check out the Lemmon Laws for your specific state at the URL below (click on the NHTSA link):

http://www.edmunds.com/edweb/recalls.html


[This message has been edited by Turbo Steve (edited February 15, 2000).]

No, not the clutch safety switch. If that was the problem it wouldn't crank at all.

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Always interested in steep & deep.
The deep part finally made it!!!

JeffT: Yes, "recycling" the glowplugs does seem to have helped me. Normally, it will take me about 5-10 minutes of cranking before I finally start up (cranking for about 5-10 seconds, every 30 seconds or so). In this case, I cranked over twice, then did the "recycle" thing, and it started right up on the third try. It surprised me when it started up, and it felt exactly like how it SHOULD start up!

Mickey: Yes, I NEVER have any problems starting up the FIRST time, no matter how cold the weather...it's just the second re-start. As part of their trouble-shooting, VW did replace the Relay 109 and the ECU. Could I possibly have gotten a defective Relay 109 or ECU?


I appreciate your suggestions about the Lemon Law, but I'm not ready to do that yet. I love my TDI, as we all do, and I have become very attached to my newfrijo.

Everything else is working fine, and I'm sure that this problem can be fixed.

Thanks.



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Bill - '98 NB TDI

Jeff, your not alone. My 98 TDI NB suffered from the exact starting problem. I complained to my VW dealer and they checked Glow Plug Relay and for air in fuel lines. Found nothing. When they were going to move it outside for pick up they could not start it. Ha Ha. Had a rental car for 2 days while they worked on it. Found cleaning Intake tube and throttle pre-valve fixed problem. They charged me $150.00. Checked for failure as sone as I left shop. Great they fixed problem. 30 days later problem back. Back to dealer. They now cleaned found throttle plate sticking = cleaned plate and road test. It is diffently fixed, but for how long. Dealer is thinking fuel quality. Sold me some additive that solves world hunger (just kidding) with anti-gel (SILOO). I was using some fuel Diesel Fuel Conditioner (Car Quest)between failures. My delema is if it is fuel quality how does it(fuel) get on my throttle plate if the fuel is direct injected in the combustion chamber ? The service writer when asked this question could'nt answer. Only said mechanic cleaned gum and varnish that was on the throttle plate area. Said will check with VW and let me know. That was 10 days ago. I checked with hoim and he says he hasn't heard any thing yet. At least this time it only took 1 hr. to fix with no chg. When I hear back from dealer I will post results.

I had the exact same problem yesterday.
I had washed my car and moved it to wipe it off. When I went to leave about 1 hr. later, the glow plug light would not come on and no start.Waited about 15 min. It then started(glow plug light came on). Got down the road about 1 mile and lost all power(rpms dropped to 0) for about a second. Car started and ran fine the rest of the day. Does this sound like the Relay 109 problem?

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Throttle plate in a diesel? I didn't think we had throttle plates.

Any problem where the engine stops working when you're driving along is a real safety problem. I had it happen this winter when my fuel gelled up (I THINK!). It's scary and has never happened to me with any gas product.

I hope VW pays attention to these kinds of problems before someone gets killed because of it.

Or maybe to reword that: How many people have to be killed before VW does something about it?

Is this "throttle plate" the anti-shudder flap that the A4's have? Is the flap down-stream of the PCV-intake pipe? If so then that would explain the gum (dried oil from the PCV) causing the flap to stick.


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1996 Golf III TDi (current)
1988 Golf II 4+E (previous)

To Dana et al: I presume this "throttle" is on the high-pressure side, just before the intake manifold. If so, the only source of contamination is the PCV system, same one that plugs up the intercooler after a while. Solution 1: clean everything up and bypass the PCV ... not legal. Solution 2: block that silly throttle wide open! If all it does is stop the engine from shuddering upon shutdown, you can live without it. All us A3'ers and B4'ers don't even have this gadget at all, and we manage somehow!

To Lori: Relay 109 gets my vote!

Brian P.
'96 Passat TDI

Lori: Your problem sounds like a bad relay. Have them replace relay #109. If you have a newer A4 style TDI (New Beetle, or a '99.5 or Y2K Golf or Jetta) you should have them clean the "changeover valve", also erroneously referred to as the "throttle valve."

Yes, the throttle-like valve newfrijo mentions is the changeover valve. It snaps shut when you turn off the engine in order to reduce the tendency of the engine to shudder when the fuel is cut off. It gets pretty filthy in there, and the valve can stick closed.

-mickey

Ok, I had to have the car towed to the dealer today. The car started perfect this morning, got down the road about a mile and it quit. I noticed the RPMs fell to zero and the speedo worked fine. As I was coasting to a stop the oil light kept flashing at me(oil was full). Then of course it wouldn't restart. Called dealer and 800 VW number in my manual, which,by the way was the wrong number(go figure). Hopped a ride home to make towing arrangements and returned to the car about an hour later. Damn thing starts! I let the tow truck take it to the dealer anyway. Does anyone have any ideas? I'll ask them about relay 109 but it just doesn't seem like the same symptoms as some of the others with the relay 109 problem. I am very concerned that they will not be able to replicate the problem since I'm sure it will run when it comes off the truck. My dealer is 50 miles away. My 1999.5 Jetta has been absolutely flawless until this. I have 12500 miles on it. I love this car....

Bosche fuel injection systems on the gas engines use a selenoid valve similar to ours which will maintain pressure in the system for startup conditions. If the needle or seat had difficulty seating pressure would bleed down. Cold starts were not so much of a problem because there was a cold start valve spraying fuel into the intake when the temp sensor was below a specified temp. I do not know how the injection system is configured on the TDI, I need to order a bently, but what you are discribing is a lack of fuel, check the clear fuel line for air bubbles before you attempt to restart, other than that the dealer needs to do a pressure test and bleed down examination of your fuel line, Good Luck.

Thank Valois, for the speedy reply. As I have learned much about my TDI by lurking on these forums for quite awhile, I did take a look at the fuel line while it was dead on the side of the road. There were no bubbles.
Will keep you posted as to what the dealer says......

LoriI,

You need to get relay 109 replaced. I had _exactly_ the same symptoms occur last week. It started with a couple of brief engine stoppages (speedo working/tach to zero), but just for a second or two. On Saturday, it quit completely while driving, and would not restart. I took relay 109 apart, and scraped the contacts with a small screwdriver, and everything has been fine since. I plan on getting a _new_ relay in the next couple of days.



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Mike

I just want to say Thank You to all especially GoFaster and Mickey for their replys. I put my posting in before I had read all there was in TDI FAQS. Found out I was over filling crankcase. I was using 5 qts of Mobil 1. I am now purshasing Mobil Delvac 1 and will fill with 4.8 US qts. Maybe I was lucky for 47,000 miles. Could be a contrbuting factor in possible hard start condition with the PCV valve contamination theory.

Relay 109 is the "Power Supply (Terminal 30, B+) Relay"

It provides +12V to the glow plug relay, cold start injector, wastegate bypass regulator valve, change-over valve, EGR vacuum regulator solenoid valve, MAF sensor, clutch vacuum vent valve switch, brake vacuum vent valve switch, PCV heating element, relays for coolant pre-heating, quantity adjuster, and the ECU.

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Mike

Of course the Dealer called and couldn't replicate the problem. I asked him if he would replace the relay anyway and he said yes....so we'll see if this solves the problem.
Thanks sooo much to all who responded.
By the way, what exactly does relay 109 control?