1z injection timing WAY too advanced

jsrmonster

Veteran Member - TDIClub Enthusiast
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Location
Red Lion, PA
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15 Golf SW DSG, RC3 piped, 99.5 Jetta Rocket PD150 6spd 4motion, 2000 ASV110 RC6 "Silverbullet" 5spd Race Car, 2003.5 Cummins QCLB 4x4 "Blue Monster" Jeep CRD juiced, MB Sprinter van juiced up
Threads like this give me a headache... :eek:
I see it everyday, generic tuner moves entire timing graphs over 40% advanced. Then nozzle vendor reduces spring shims .005"-.008" reducing pilot and main injection pressures by 15-20%, (also monkeying with timing advance). The engine builder also used a 3hole head gasket since he read a post on the internet that this is better for more power. Next customer brings me the car that is so far out of calibration everywhere it is overheating and running very lean, it has already scored pistons and cylinder walls, and they wonder why it is running bad with 250psi compression in a 2 and 3. They have been struggling with their tuner for past year changing out many tunes daily like their underwear. I could go on and on, like the maf-less open loop tunes that have no correction factors, and my favorite is the zero'd out fault class tables, so it never gives faults or complaints. I won't even get into big turbo mistakes, etc. etc. etc.
(not just VW's, but MB, BMW d's, and Jeep CRD/GC's)
;-))
 
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RobbyP

Member
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Oct 16, 2017
Location
Trenton NJ
TDI
Corrado 1z swap
The ECU I checked timing with was from Kerma. They sold me a revised ECU with a custom tune in it. Yesterday I reinstalled my stock ECU and my timing was a bit on the retard side but it was in range. Plus the car actually drove alot better with stock ECU with the same about of power. Talking to them now to see how we can fix this issue
 

SRHeer

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Joined
Sep 26, 2007
Location
Houston, Texas USA
TDI
1999.5 Golf - 2001 Beetle
This happened to me once and I advanced instead of retarded the timing like VAG-COM suggested and that fixed problem - as I moved it forward proportionally closer to motor the graph jumped back to show timing as retarded until I able to advance on center line.

Does anyone know what the static (dial indicator) injection pump timing for direct injection types 1Zs and AHUs? ALHs? - For most indirect injection diesels it around 1.0 but if I remember correctly its is like 1.47(is this in mm-s) - one could always preset injection pump with dial indicator and know they are very close to proper timing.
 

Mongler98

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Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
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98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
This happened to me once and I advanced instead of retarded the timing like VAG-COM suggested and that fixed problem - as I moved it forward proportionally closer to motor the graph jumped back to show timing as retarded until I able to advance on center line.
Does anyone know what the static (dial indicator) injection pump timing for direct injection types 1Zs and AHUs? ALHs? - For most indirect injection diesels it around 1.0 but if I remember correctly its is like 1.47(is this in mm-s) - one could always preset injection pump with dial indicator and know they are very close to proper timing.
NEVER mess with a pump like that unless you know what you are doing, the fact that you have to ask means you dont, few do. only way to fix timing issues is to correct them at the belt and adjusting it to retard or advance.
 

SRHeer

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Joined
Sep 26, 2007
Location
Houston, Texas USA
TDI
1999.5 Golf - 2001 Beetle
How can checking the static timing on a TDI pump be "messing" with pump??? It is done in the same manor as with a IDI pump - in fact to find out one can check on presently correctly timed motor to see what indication is - if one shouldn't check the static timing on a TDI pump then one shouldn't check static timing on and IDI pump - they are the same process
 

Mongler98

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Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
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98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
OH, my mistake, sorry i was into this http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=497033 thread and had my mind still on it when i read your post about dial indicating. My mistake
Yea, not sure why you need an indicator. the lock out pin for the AHU pump is not a very precise pin. I use a bolt with some tape on it. there are markings on the metal shield that help you locate it. Also its a big jump to be a tooth off and if your paying attention its not hard to get it spot on. I have done HUNDREDS of TB jobs on AHU's and ALH's. Back in the day I was doing a TB with seals and new parts in about 45 minutes.
No need to indicate them lol.
The lock out on the cam will make sure its 100%, then your flywheel mark should be 99.999% for TDC, the cam is either right or wrong as it depends on the tooth on the belt like the crank.
Most times i find that i have to go over and adjust things at the cam sprocket to get everything to eye up 100% and that makes a HUGE difference for VCDS timing graph. I remember my first TB job on my AHU, i had some major issues getting the graph to be right, checked static, was off by a good bit on the cam vs the IP and crank. It takes a few go's but its not difficult in the end just time consuming.
 

SRHeer

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Joined
Sep 26, 2007
Location
Houston, Texas USA
TDI
1999.5 Golf - 2001 Beetle
Ok no problem - one reason to be able to and use dial indicator is that I just ran across one whose mechanic had forgotten to take timing pin out before he tried starting it so it had a busted up slot where pin inserts - also it is good to know and necessary when timing mTDI pumps.
Thanks for related experience and noting that using VAG-COM is proper and best!
 

Mongler98

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Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
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98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
Lol. Worst mechanic. Not turning it over by hand first. Wow.
 

iluvmydiesels

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Nov 21, 2015
Location
phila area
TDI
AHU
How can checking the static timing on a TDI pump be "messing" with pump??? It is done in the same manor as with a IDI pump - in fact to find out one can check on presently correctly timed motor to see what indication is - if one shouldn't check the static timing on a TDI pump then one shouldn't check static timing on and IDI pump - they are the same process
heer, these are two separate situations. the IDI pump was made for static timing, using a dial indicator and getting the mark/measurement as per you engine is very strong and accurate for your (that motor)style of timing.
a good dial is +/-0.002mm tolerance. the reading on a dial goes, and your measuring to 0.01mm.
an mTDI pump will be similar in timing. you may need a bigger adapter to fit pumps threads, and the timing measurement isnot a standard. its going to be a ranger rover 3000(?) pump made to fit our/your model. i ve seen timing measurement of about 1.250mm, i think this may be a starting point, and as you feel your set up, up adjust. rather 'wild' to older IDI set-ups.
for our TDI, static pump timing when doing work, or changing belt, is essentially using the pump pin for initial timing. if car, after completing work, starts cold, thats what you want. normally the next step is to warm up the car, use vag-com and final time the pump, while running.
i dont think your really supposed to remove that center bolt, that for older IDI pumps was the timing hole.
if you have a new set up or want a good spot to set up for timing/start. i set the pump about the middle of its movement, have inj lines off, loosen the mount screws, use pin, and set about near its middle.
for cars that wont start in static pump position, or you may well know by now. a lot of pumps need to be bumped up/advanced one belt tooth, as two of mine need to be. in this case, you need to again set up pump, its easiest to, before setting up belt, to have inj lines off, loosen mount nuts/bolts, turn the pump all the way away from engine, this is full retard, as you have the pump ready to bump 1tooth advance, when you turn the pump fully away from motor, bump up toward(forward) some. not too much. i tighten top mount bolt, leaving the 2 nuts inside the pulley loose, not too loose, and remove the lower mount bolt. just until you warm up and make the final adjust.

interesting point, the last two times i bumped off my belt, i didnt have to even adjust the pump after. the last time i put in a new, better camshaft, and lifters. i got an ok febi cam from autohaus, was a good price at $120, and a set of ina lifters, i got from somewhere. the time before, i forget, it may have been a while. i may have found a plastic water pump, the last person who was supposed to take care of the car let get put in, well i swapped in a metal impeller w/p, and some other stuff. anyways i have to bump my pump up one timing tooth. but i set the crank and cam right about on, cam is about 0.00 tight measurement. both times, put belt back on, and set up crank, cam, and pump w/pin. left pump in same spot. timing stayed right on.
 

SRHeer

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Joined
Sep 26, 2007
Location
Houston, Texas USA
TDI
1999.5 Golf - 2001 Beetle
iluv: what if the VE pump is on an ALH instead of AHU and you cannot rotate pump and it doesn't start on first try - how does one advance timing then to get it started in order to check with VAG-COM - not trying to be "smart" here just trying to see what your experience has been - Thanks for the tips! Maybe we are not sure about the ability or accuracy of static timing of TDI pumps because its hasn't been a practiced procedure - I can check to see where my B4V is static wise and VAG-COM wise be before I change TB and then re-time with static dial indicator and then check with VAG_COM to see how close I am. Of course the B4V makes it a bit easier because its timing varies with pump rotateion instead of with its pulley adjustment.
I asked Giles this and this was his answer:
"and yes you can always use a dial indicator to time any VE pump.
Giles"
 
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KLXD

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Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
You advance the timing on a ALH by loosening the three sprocket bolts and moving the pump shaft clockwise.

Same effect as moving the pump body CCW on the AHU.

I'd say using VCDS is easier than a dial indicator especially the AHU where you can adjust it with the engine running.

The only advantage I see to the dial indicator is that you know it's right before you try to start the engine.
 

Vince Waldon

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Apr 25, 2009
Location
Edmonton AB Canada
TDI
2001 ALH Jetta, 2003 ALH Wagon, 2005 BEW Wagon
I asked Giles this and this was his answer:
"and yes you can always use a dial indicator to time any VE pump.
Giles"
Giles, as always, is right.

However... as a mere mortal on the interwebs... try to find a factory OEM dial indicator plunger spec for a VE TDI pump.

I'll wait. :) :)
 

SRHeer

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Joined
Sep 26, 2007
Location
Houston, Texas USA
TDI
1999.5 Golf - 2001 Beetle
thanks Clyde!!! for the reference
"
Sounded like he got tired of monkeying with graph already.
I might would too if a certain amount of effort was fruitless.
We all wear different shoes.
And he wanted another option.
The Dial is straight forward and exact with exact results.
Nothing to chase back and forth on a screen.
Just glad that it is still an option on these engines.
I'm sure he'll be more gentle with VCDS next time. ;)
Normal circumstances it (VCDS) completely saves time .

On the other engine that Clyde has, that has never been fired since being built, the Dial is the smartest thing one could do.
The inj timing will be spot-on before the key is ever turned.
If all else is well - it cranks and runs perfect without any strain.
If a no-start condition, inj timing is eliminated as a factor.
Its only "hard" the first time. About like the first time one does a Dzl timing belt. After that its a cake walk.
How you doing over there Clyde ?
Should i send you a pre-fabbed adapter/sender overnight/FedX ? :D haha
"
 

SRHeer

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Joined
Sep 26, 2007
Location
Houston, Texas USA
TDI
1999.5 Golf - 2001 Beetle
Also while replacing timing belt and setting IP static timing one good way that I have found to keep the crank from nudging slightly one way or another is to first put VW in 5th gear - then jack left wheel off ground this stabilizes the crank from inadvertently and or slightly turning one way or another and then while checking IP static timing one can rotate by hand raised wheel back and forth to help get static timing set spot on with dial indicator - kills two birds with one trick
 

clyde

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Apr 8, 2000
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confluence, Snake/Clearwater
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1998 Jetta, 1959 DeSoto with leopard-skin seat covers
The down side to the dial-indicator method is that fuel will spill when the plug is removed. Maybe lots of rags could keep the fuel off the hoses under the pump; if fuel can't be kept off the hoses they should be removed and washed clean.

Tough job—hardly any room at all!

Good idea on slightly moving the crank with the tire.
 
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