Visting Prius Owner

bwilson4web said:

My favorite trick when traveling at interstate speed approaching a clover leaf exit and followed by a tailgater is to not slow down or touch the brakes. Their expression when they realize 'going too fast for the turn' is a grin.

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Haha, I've done the same thing in many vehicles that people don't expect to be going fast around corners, the best ones being a Toyota pickup, and my current company car, which is a smart ... that has Bilstein coilovers and sticky Falken tires, which transform it into a go-kart ... but people following behind don't see that ...

bwilson4web said:

Prius people like quiet and smooth . . . a quality ride.

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I wonder what's quieter at 80 MPH, a Prius or a current TDI. I'm betting the VW. And I don't think there's any question that VW has better suspension tuning than Toyota.

As a "guest" here I'd caution you against pejoratives when comparing Toyotas to VWs. Not a way to make friends.

I would not call the ride in any Prius "quality". Not by a long shot, LOL. More like jittery, unsettled, twitchy, and detached from driver input. Basically the same as any small crackerbox car. At least the C gets a normal key, gear selector, and parking brake. Those alone make the car much less annoying. And they also enjoy the smaller 1.5 engine like the older Priuses had, only with all the newer tech like the newer 1.8 has. Unfortunately, with the $21k price tag, even the C makes little real world economic sense to me. A $14k Yaris can be found at the same Toyota dealer, and you can still one up ANY Prius and get a Yaris with the proper number of pedals, and bang out 40+ MPG all day long under most driving conditions, so long as you are not needing to go very fast or carry much weight. Even my F150 with 3 pedals is more "fun" to drive than a Prius, LMAO.

However, I would love to see more Priuses (of any alphabetic denomination) on the road than all these stupid empty crew cab short bed behemoth pickups everywhere.

BTW, anyone who thinks a Prius is a quality feeling/driving car should take a C-max for a spin. Because Ford beat Toyota at their own game in that respect. The C-max feels like a tank in comparison, has lots of power and room, too. They are not cheap to purchase either, but at least they feel like you got your money's worth.

I would also not describe the Prius as a 'quality' ride, and this is coming from someone who owns B4's (generally considered the Flintstone car of the TDI realm). Every one I have been in feels cramped, twitchy, and heavy. I do know they're the first cars off the road in the snow regardless of snow tires.

They have their niche, no question, but I'd never own one. Not only because I think they're poorly laid out and don't feel comfortable, but also due to the stigma former and current Prius owners have cast upon them.

But if you want to compare the Prius to the TDI, come back when you have over 300K on them and we'll talk. A guy runs the locally in a taxi service and has over 300K on a few of his, but they're like most high mileage taxi's out there and pretty beat up. They also don't have a lot of luggage space so he's limited in how many people he can pick up.

A friend has an Insight (yes, I know it's a Honda) with a 5 speed and 200K, but his battery is dead so the car only gets around 38 mpg. He doesn't have the $$$ to replace them so just drives it as is the 80 miles each way to work.

When the miles pile up is where VWs shine. IBW is still tight and rattle free at 315K. Quiet, too (at least relatively quiet). I laughed at your Flintstone reference to B4s, but the evolution from the B4 to A4 platforms is obvious every time I switch cars. Still, I wonder what a Prius drives like with 300K on it. Or a Tesla, for that matter.

Our shop Prius has nearly 200k on it, and it makes my older Golf with almost 500k on it feel like a big Audi in comparison. None of the porters like to drive the Prius, but the boss makes them.... LMAO.

As a general rule, Prius people like a quiet ride but the YouTube "Meet the Volkswagens" suggest TDI advocates like to hear the engine roar (*). Other YouTube videos suggest smoking tires are important. Understand I'm OK with this as one's ride needs to meet one expectations . . . especially if paying for the car . . . the tires . . . or the fuel. But if the message of "Meet the Volkswagens" is wrong, I'm glad to hear it . . . or not.

When I first got our 2003 Prius, one of the technical forums had a lot of postings by Prius owners installing additional sound proofing. Since we had the Echo, it didn't make sense. The Echo was always louder and vibrated all the time. In contrast, I'll often drive with the windows down and at a stop light the Prius engine turns off and I amuse myself diagnosing the problems of the cars around me.

BTW, having had our 2010 Prius . . . scooting along . . . it seemed OK to me:
http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/speed.mp4
I was getting about 23 MPG at the time. BTW, the accelerator was not floored, I was just following two Mazdas and a Caddy that had passed me 'in a hurry' and I wanted to join the party.

Bob Wilson

* - In January 2009, I visited the Detroit Autoshow and had a great time. I went to the Fisker booth and noticed a large number of attractive ladies. At the time, I was wondering about their 'pedestrian alert' and asked. Unfortunately, she had a French-Canadian accent and communications was difficult. Then she said, "Oh, you mean the synthetic whore."

It took a few seconds to realize she was trying to say, "synthetic roar."

As a long time Prius driver (A to B) it has always irritated me (in both the Prius and TDI) all of the people driving huge cars and trucks that creep away from stops and take forever to get to speed.
The Prius does better to use the fuel to get to cruising speed and maintain that speed.
The creepers cost me more fuel and when I can get around them and drive the speed limit the come finally blowing by (some of the Diesel trucks seem compelled to "Roll Coal" to show their comtempt.
I have probably spent more time "at speed" meaning racing various vehicles on the track than many, but I have calmed down on the road and I look for a comfortable reliable car to get me from A to B. Cheap as well.
While the TDI is a "better" can and more comfortable and mileage is good (fuel more expensive) the Prius was a LOT cheaper to operate including replacing the battery at 190,000 miles. The cost per mile is probably 3 - 4 times higher with the VW than the Prius.
As comparisons on miles driven the Prius had well over 190,000 miles before it's demise by Explorer and the TDI JSW 2009 has 240,000 + miles.
I have real experience with both.
By the way..... My wife hated the Prius while she drove it. She loves her JSW (first the 2009 and now the 2013).
Of course she doesn't maintain them nor pay for the repairs and parts or fuel.
I have different criterion for cars I pay for and cars someone else pays for as well!
What I want is for someone else to pay for and maintain a nice new Touareg for me!

bwilson4web said:

....but the YouTube "Meet the Volkswagens" suggest TDI advocates like to hear the engine roar (*). Other YouTube videos suggest smoking tires are important. Understand I'm OK with this as one's ride needs to meet one expectations . . . especially if paying for the car . . . the tires . . . or the fuel. But if the message of "Meet the Volkswagens" is wrong, I'm glad to hear it . . . or not.

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There are definitely some TDI drivers who like to hear the engine noise. However, you cannot believe everything that you see on YouTube. Many (most?) of us really like the fact that the newer (CR) diesel engines are almost silent. Most of us keep the exhaust system completely stock which keeps the car remarkably quiet (for a diesel). Most people cannot even tell it is a diesel by the sound it produces.

Have Fun!

Don

The ride in a Prius is isolated ("smooth" initial impression) until it encounters an imperfection large enough to blow through the dampers, then it's unsettled and crashy. Twist-beam rear axles (Prius - but also older-generation VW) have some undesirable compliance-steer characteristics. VW used funky asymmetrical bushings to compensate for this - but switched to multilink IRS in 2006 for most models. Also there is not enough roll stiffness. Fortunately the stock super-hard low-rolling-resistance tires have so little grip that it hardly matters.

I know Toyota is switching to a multilink IRS for the 2016 model, so hopefully someone did their homework and got the calibration right. They've got competition - the new 2016 Honda Civic also uses a newly-designed multilink IRS that is supposed to do a very good job of separating the "ride" functions (compliant) from the "handling" functions (firm). Haven't driven the car but I've worked on the equipment that puts the rear subframe together ... it's an interesting design.

I had a B4 Passat. It rode and handled pretty much the same at 462,000 km (when I sold it) as it did when I got it at 95,000 km.

The B4 Passats for such a roomy car with such a dorky style actually drive and hold the road quite nicely. Mine certainly did, even with 350k+ miles on the clock when I sold it. It was like a bigger, faster version of my A2 Jetta. Which also is nice to drive.

I am willing to pay a little more to drive a car I actually like to be behind the wheel of. Life is too short for a car guy like me to be any different. I drive mostly highway, high speed, and do some light towing (although tonight my Golf will be tasked with towing a Beetle 50 miles home... which it will do without issue, and still probably only use a little over a gallon of fuel to do so). It is the perfect car for me, I really couldn't think of anything I'd rather drive. And I drive a lot of different cars.

Jlaasf said:

I'm not sure what the argument of a Prius not being a fun car to drive (or, as you said, purely a too, to go from A to B). I agree nobody would ever buy one for the enjoyablility of the handling or "performance". It's 100% about economy.

But, I also wouldn't classify a TDI as an enjoyable car to drive either. I've owned them for 4 years now and can't say I've ever really thought about it as anything more than an A to B either. It has more functionality than an older Prius, but the newer Prius "wagon" has a decent amount of space.

I feel that both are primarily purchased for fuel economy. Both do that well. Personally, when I'm looking for a new , economic car to replace my TDI, I don't think I'm likely to buy another VW.

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I've driven literally 1000's of cars over the years, owned too many to count, and most of the cars are as said, boring to drive, don't handle and don't have any power, or you give up options. Newer Honda's are great but the price tag, ouch and I was driving a 2002 Civic for awhile, not bad but no smile on my face, it was vanilla, lol. I love jumping in my 2000 and driving, its roomy, comfy and fun to drive. Going up stupid steep hills at 130-140 km/h with ease sure doesn't hurt.

I went camping this summer, 2 adults, 2 kids and all the gear in my sedan, not sure I could have done that with other car's I used to own. Also, I up until I bought my TDI, I was not a VW fan, not sure why, just never got into them, now I am kicking myself,

Most cars start to fall apart after 200K, both my sedans have 400k and 377k, my TDI wagon has 220K miles and drive like new cars, even my brother in law who I sold the green sedan to, 400K, can't believe how quiet it is, how the doors thunk when closed. He currently has a Cavalier and a new Tundra, he is selling both and buying another diesel VW, probably a Wagon.

I fully agree with criticism about the suspension. I use EZ-shims to get the rear toe and camber right. I also bought the camber bolts and installed them. Not so much for handling as getting even tire wear.

On the 2010, I installed slightly over-sized tires and now the speedometer, odometer, and MPG have less than a 1% error compared to GPS and mile markers.

The 03 has 5% oversized tires testing as a poor mans overdrive. They also improved straight-line stability.

I am probably going to wait for the mid-model correction in a couple of years. The 03 is a good urban car with acceptable long distance performance. So let the pioneers work out the bugs and buy when the wheels fall off the 03.

One insight learned here is you' all may have similar issues with past VW commercials as Prius owners have with those stupid Toyota commercials. What were they smokin?

Bob Wilson

Thanks Bob for starting a good thread that at stayed on a courteous tone in general.

I think I read somewhere that the US with approximately 5% of the world population uses about 25% of the energy resources of the world. I would not be surprised if this is a true statement. Anything that we can do to be more efficient energy wise, in my view, is a good thing. With smaller vehicles the hybrid gasoline technology does a good job to be efficient and for larger vehicles under load the light duty diesel engine is a very good fit. Unfortunately neither of these technologies is getting much traction in the US due to our relatively inexpensive fuel cost (as compared to other Western countries and Japan/South Korea).


If I may also speak of another wrong perception (in my humble view) related to light duty diesel cars vs hybrid gasoline cars: that the hybrid gasoline technology has currently an overall less environmental footprint in our planet than a current light duty diesel engine. I believe the situation is a lot more complex than tailpipe emissions and what the EPA regulates at the moment. Already the mining of the 'black gold' is bad enough to millions of people that we never see or meet, now we are adding to it the mining of rare minerals in geographical regions of the world far from our comfortable western standard of living and with most likely very weak or inexistent environmental regulations to protect the wellbeing of the people impacted by such mining. So what we might see in our neighborhood skies is not the whole story in my view.

Hi,

After the CNW Marketing 'Dust-to-Dust' fiasco, I avoid 'Who is most green' discussions as I have seen too many attempts to frame or J'accuse some technology or another. I like how diesel and naphtha allows a greater percentage of each barrel to be used. Although we may have different means, we often share a common objective, efficient transportation.

Engineering has taught me that if I don't see atleast three solutions to a problem then I don't understand the problem and/or the technology. But I learned many years ago that there are good gear heads here and hopefully shown those d*mn Prius commercials are . . . fantasy fictions too.

Bob Wilson

GoFaster said:

...Twist-beam rear axles (Prius - but also older-generation VW) have some undesirable compliance-steer characteristics. VW used funky asymmetrical bushings to compensate for this - but switched to multilink IRS in 2006 for most models. Also there is not enough roll stiffness. Fortunately the stock super-hard low-rolling-resistance tires have so little grip that it hardly matters.

I know Toyota is switching to a multilink IRS for the 2016 model, so hopefully someone did their homework and got the calibration right. They've got competition - the new 2016 Honda Civic also uses a newly-designed multilink IRS that is supposed to do a very good job of separating the "ride" functions (compliant) from the "handling" functions (firm).

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I thought I would miss the IRS when I traded in my 2002 Subaru WRX/5MT for a 2015 GSW TDI/S/6MT, but can say that while I notice the rigid rear suspension, and it does annoy me, it hasn't really been that huge an impact because of all the mostly highway driving I do. Having hung up my SCCA membership as well helps... (I was mostly in it for the road rally where there were some great twisty/mixed condition courses, but was short lived when my SSB racing navigator got bored and over stressed sitting next to me with a clipboard and a fancy calculator/timer )

Where I do notice it, for example, was on a stretch of highway where they were still resurfacing, the two left-most lanes were already resurfaced, but the merge/right-most two lanes just had a new base layer, but not the finish layer, and sat at an inch or two lower with a steep bevel to the higher finished section. I decided not to change lanes into the new smoother asphalt simply because I didn't fancy the wallowing/bouncy ride that I imagined would have resulted as I transitioned.

A VW twist beam rear suspension is a far cry from a Toyota one. I think the VW ones are usually good enough that the average customer could not tell the difference. My brother has a 2011 TDI Jetta and I have a 2014 TSI and his rides almost as good as mine. I could not say that for the Corolla I used to have.

It's amazing how far we haven't progressed with gasoline consumption.

Yes, but the powers that be won't allow a 1.0 Metro/Swift in its 1990s state to be sold here today.

Of those two cars in comparison, the Prius is faster (not much, but trust me, having driven both many times), stops better, is safer, and has far more creature comforts. It also meets much more strict emissions standards. The test cycle has also changed some too. I doubt the 1.0 Metro would get 46 combined today. Probably closer to 42 or so.

I have to tell you though, if Metro-sized time machines existed, and I had to choose between a new Prius for $23k, and a new Metro for [whatever adjusted money would be today from $6k in '92], I'd probably pick the Metro too. Just because I like things simple, and Suzuki certainly nailed that one with that little car. And they were reasonably reliable, too.

The Volkswagen dealer I worked at was also a Suzuki store. We had the Swift, which was essentially the Metro with a 4th cylinder. GM wanted the high MPG 1.0L 3 cyl exclusively for the Metro. The 1.3L 4 cyl Swift still got 45ish, and there was even a 16v GTi version that was a hoot to drive and still got over 40.

tikal said:

Already the mining of the 'black gold' is bad enough to millions of people that we never see or meet, now we are adding to it the mining of rare minerals in geographical regions of the world far from our comfortable western standard of living and with most likely very weak or inexistent environmental regulations to protect the wellbeing of the people impacted by such mining. So what we might see in our neighborhood skies is not the whole story in my view.

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For the moment, any electric or hybrid car that uses permanent-magnet motors or generators is using significant amounts of rare-earth metals in those magnets. But, everyone knows that this is not a good thing to be doing because of where such metals are found in the world. It's quite possible to make such a vehicle using induction motors or conventional wound-rotor motors that pretty much only have copper and iron in them ... but there will be some sacrifice in performance or weight.

Nickel is another oft-criticised material. Well, I KNOW where a lot of that comes from. The photos from the "nickel belt" around Sudbury, ON showing the environmental catastrophes of past decades are well known. You can rest assured that you can drive past that area on the Trans-Canada Highway right now and you'll never know how it was like 40 years ago. The trees are green (well, maybe not at the time of year that we are going into), the grass is green, you can go fishing and catch something, the sky is blue.

Don't forget that stainless-steel and alloy 4340 (commonly used in combustion engine crankshafts and connecting rods) have pretty significant amounts of nickel in them. It's not just found in batteries!

In any case, there is a changeover to lithium batteries in process. I know there are significant sources in south America. If push comes to shove ... it's in seawater, too.

oilhammer said:

Yes, but the powers that be won't allow a 1.0 Metro/Swift in its 1990s state to be sold here today.

Of those two cars in comparison, the Prius is faster (not much, but trust me, having driven both many times), stops better, is safer, and has far more creature comforts. It also meets much more strict emissions standards. The test cycle has also changed some too. I doubt the 1.0 Metro would get 46 combined today. Probably closer to 42 or so.

I have to tell you though, if Metro-sized time machines existed, and I had to choose between a new Prius for $23k, and a new Metro for [whatever adjusted money would be today from $6k in '92], I'd probably pick the Metro too. Just because I like things simple, and Suzuki certainly nailed that one with that little car. And they were reasonably reliable, too.

The Volkswagen dealer I worked at was also a Suzuki store. We had the Swift, which was essentially the Metro with a 4th cylinder. GM wanted the high MPG 1.0L 3 cyl exclusively for the Metro. The 1.3L 4 cyl Swift still got 45ish, and there was even a 16v GTi version that was a hoot to drive and still got over 40.

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Those are the revised MPG numbers. So the Metro would have been higher according to the old ratings.

I drove a few of those at a couple different jobs in the early 90's. They can sure take a beating! Some were over 500,000km and still ran well. It was a security guard job and the cars were driven almost 24 hours per day, so it didn't take long to rack up that mileage.

I just think it's funny that so much technology has been crammed into economy cars but they still get the same mileage that they did when they were low-tech tin cans.

Really, we should have 100mpg cars now, but instead we have safer 46mpg cars.

People should be able to choose to buy a highly efficient tin can if they want to. They may die if they hit a big pothole, but that is their choice.

The fact that motorcycles are legal eliminates any possible safety argument. In many places helmets aren't even required on a motorcycle! Yet then we have all these safety regulations for cars.

(I wouldn't drive a death trap like that, personally, but some people might)

FWIW a modern Toyota Yaris, Mitsubishi Mirage, Nissan Micra, or Chevy Spark is pretty close to that Suzuki Swift (aka Geo Metro). The modern cars weigh a bit more thanks to actually having somewhat decent safety equipment and non-zero noise insulation. The Mirage and Micra are penalty boxes and look the part. The Yaris is better, and the Spark is a surprisingly decent place to be. I've had one as a rental for a day, and didn't mind it (granted, expectations were low) - and the 2016 re-skin looks a lot better than the goofy outgoing model.

oilhammer said:

I have to tell you though, if Metro-sized time machines existed, and I had to choose between a new Prius for $23k, and a new Metro for [whatever adjusted money would be today from $6k in '92], I'd probably pick the Metro too. Just because I like things simple, and Suzuki certainly nailed that one with that little car. And they were reasonably reliable, too.

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If I had access to a time machine, I'm undecided on what I'd do about my car. Possibly get a '03 Jetta Wagon, maybe a '96 B4V, or possibly a brand-new '96 Elantra Wagon.

rwolff said:

If I had access to a time machine, I'm undecided on what I'd do about my car. Possibly get a '03 Jetta Wagon, maybe a '96 B4V, or possibly a brand-new '96 Elantra Wagon.

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And THAT....is why I'll keep my cars, and those of friends and family, going as long as I can. They have shortcomings like any car but I think they're pretty minor.

Mike_04GolfTDI said:

.

The fact that motorcycles are legal eliminates any possible safety argument. In many places helmets aren't even required on a motorcycle! Yet then we have all these safety regulations for cars.

(I wouldn't drive a death trap like that, personally, but some people might)

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Because when a motorcycle crashes, it's typically just one fatality (the rider) v.s. a 6 thousand lb suv driven by a soccer mom yo-yo, doing 90mph weaving in between cars while texting usually equals in a larger kill count.

That's why.

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Hi,

One of the saddest things we've had to deal with are Apples-and-Oranges comparisons. The Prius has standard features that are optional on other cars.

So after my wife 'enhanced' the Echo the price had increased half-way to the basic Prius . . . and it was still missing things like alloy wheels and a functional spoiler. Another favorite is the manual transmission versus the Prius standard automatic and AC. But Toyota is not blameless.

I still remember that 2001 Prius with a GPS but no cruise control. What were they thinking?

Bob Wilson

Missing or added features cut both ways. Some may miss them, others (like me) find I have to purchase features I'd rather not have. Automotive packaging is for the common denominator.

One thing VW has done with the Golf/Jetta/GSW is offer manual transmissions in every TDI trim level. This is unique. In fact VW has the only manual transmission TDIs available in the US. Auto transmission is a deal breaker for me on a car purchase, so I appreciate that.

A spoiler is a deal breaker for me too, unless it's on a Porsche or STI for track day use. Otherwise, they're stupid.

Ditto to what IBW just posted.

It is certainly true that Prius people are more A to B efficiency oriented. So Chris Hogan at PriusChat introduced a vehicle efficiency formula:

• <total_volume> * <MPG> = (cubic_feet mile) / gallon

So if we take the GEO Metro XFI versus for last model years sold:

• 4,005 ft{3} mile / gallon - 1994 Geo Metro XFI (manual, regular)
• 4,092 ft{3} mile / gallon - 2015 VW Golf SportWagen (manual, diesel)
• 4,730 ft{3} mile / gallon - 2015 VW Jetta Hybrid (auto, premium)

Prius people are attracted to the highest efficiency, Jetta Hybrid. Premium and diesel are close enough to be treated as equal. But even VW can do the math and see a 16% improvement with the hybrid versus the 2% improvement of the 2015 Golf TDI over a 21 year old, GEO Metro XFI. But something else is at play.

The Jetta hybrid is VWs first generation and like the Volt, uses premium. Furthermore, the price trends for hybrid parts are headed lower as battery, motor, and power electronic prices continue to go down.

Bob Wilson

Plug in the numbers in that formula for a Ram ProMaster full-size van. You can use 18 mpg for the fuel consumption even though mine is doing a little better than that.

Even just using rough numbers for the cargo area alone and not counting the driver's compartment, it's around 6000!