Project Kill Da Auto Wabbit!, Or how I learned to love the Manual Swap

chirorob

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Mar 5, 2001
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Auburn, AL
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2002 Jetta wagon auto
Thanks for the edit. :)

I took a few more shots tonight of the TCU connector and the actual wires that need to be bridged today.

There is actually a yellow/red as well as a red/yellow, you need to pop the top on the connector to see which one is which by that diagram on page 3 or 4. The one to use is mostly red with a yellow stripe. The other one is mostly red with a (sort-of) grey stripe on it. It almost looks purple to me, but it was in the right spot on the diagram.

I also took a pic of the "plenum pass through" - I finally figured out what that was so I thought I'd include that for other folks like me.

For anyone who can't figure it out by now, I don't have a Bentley (yet.. it's on the way), so I've been figuring out everything as I go using alphaseinor's writeup as a guide.
 

chirorob

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Auburn, AL
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2002 Jetta wagon auto
On the way out of town today I decided to give her a crank, but I don't get anything... no click, no start, nothing.

I just re-read the diagrams, I missed the grounding of the brown wire that says 7 on the PN relay section. Does that wire go into the TCU connector? I saw in one little spot alphaseinor said to ground it in the plenum. The diagram just shows it at the relay itself. What pin number is it on the TCU connector if it is in there?

I'm guessing either that, or else the ECU recode is the issue. What happens if you DONT recode the ECU? (just out of curiosity, I have the VAG-COM in the car already)

Tomorrow morning the 1J0 711 765 B part gets ordered for overnight delivery, I hope to test drive her Wednesday evening.
 
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GdB

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Cypress, California, USA
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Golf IV swap 2002
Vagcom Version

I used to have a 3rd party vag-com clone with the older vag-com software since that is all they will let you use with 3rd party interfaces. I noticed I could not do the transmission recode with it. So I upgraded to a full vag-hex-can interface since I had some other reasons to upgrade also.
 

chirorob

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Mar 5, 2001
Location
Auburn, AL
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2002 Jetta wagon auto
Well, without a shift cable end.. no, it doesn't work. If I move the counterbalance by hand then yes, it shifts all over the place. Since I can't crank and can't shift I don't really have any way to know if it officially "works" until later.

In other news, Jim Ellis VW in Marietta GA sucks! Carl Gregory in Columbus GA has a real nice parts guy, he assured me on Saturday when I called that any dealership would be fine with overnighting a part, and since Jim Ellis actually had one in stock, that would be the fastest way for me, rather than ordering one from him. He said if he were to order it right then the earliest he could have one would be Wed, and then i'd still have to get it from him. I had to wait until Tuesday to call Jim Ellis. "We don't do FedEx sir" was the reply. "We can UPS it".. I asked if UPS has an overnight service, and he says "we don't do UPS sir". (***??) I politely reminded him that he JUST SAID they could UPS it, and he said they could only do UPS COD. I offered to pay for the part and pay for the shipping in advance, but no good - UPS COD only, and no promises of when it would arrive since it goes out via UPS ground. Grrrrrrr.
Jim Ellis sucked when I lived in Atlanta, and now they still suck when I'm 2 hours away.

My father-in-law owns a shop, I had him order it via his parts express supplier place, he will get it Thursday and I guess I'll get it overnighted to me by Friday.... the day I'm supposed to head to the beach after work. This should be a fun afternoon.

I have the vag-hex but not CAN interface, shouldn't be an issue with that.
 

chirorob

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Location
Auburn, AL
TDI
2002 Jetta wagon auto
The ecu is recoded - just go to "engine" then "recode" then type in 0002.

Dash pulled out, relay 175 brown wire clipped and grounded on the relay side.

remote antenna extended while I was in there (works great).

Still no cranky.


Any ideas? Nothing even attempts to turn over. Once the battery is disconnected is there anything in particular that needs to be done with the immobilizer?
 

chirorob

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Auburn, AL
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2002 Jetta wagon auto
Out comes the multimeter.

1) brown is indeed grounded all the way to the relay harness
2) red/black from ignition switch pulls +12v with the key turned to start
3) red shows +12v all the time
4) red/yellow and red/grey test out to be connected together
5) red/black going to starter shows no change when the key is turned.
6) green/black shows +12v at the relay and at the reverse switch.

Basically everything I can test at the relay shows all is good, but I don't get voltage to kick out to the starter. Is it possible the relay just decided to go bad all the sudden??
 

GdB

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Golf IV swap 2002
99.5-03 Same

Well according to the wiring diagrams I looked at it all looked the same from 99.5 to 03. I have three sets of diagrams:

99.5-00 Golf/Jetta
01-03 Jetta Wagon
01-03 Golf/Jetta

But when I looked at them, everything looked the same as far as we are concerned. I may have missed something. I don't see any detail about the tr switch itself in these diagrams:

http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/500/auto-manual_Trany_Swap_Wiring_Diagrams_ppt.doc
(DON'T OPEN IT, DOWNLOAD IT and CHANGE THE EXTENSION to PPT !!!)

(ignition on).

1. Test the starter by hot wiring the starter relay.

2. Put 12V on #6 to hot wire the starter relay.
My guess is this will not work because the PN relay is not getting energized.

I would feel more comfortable with getting
alphaseinor to OK this, to fry anything. He knows the circuit better than I.
 

GdB

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Location
Cypress, California, USA
TDI
Golf IV swap 2002
Bypass Tr Relay?

WHY NOT BYPASS THE TR RELAY!

HOOK UP THE BLACK/RED IGNITION SWITCH #6 TO THE STARTER #8.

THIS SHOULD DEFINATLY WORK AS LONG AS THE IGNITION SWITCH CAN HANDLE THE CURRENT OF THE STARTER RELAY (THE ONE ON THE STARTER)

Maybe the starter relay takes a lot more current than all the other ones, and so thats why they put the starter relay energized by relays. Put as little current through that expensive and hard to get at ignition switch.

Then again, maybe its just for the Park Neutral interlock function...
 

chirorob

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Auburn, AL
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2002 Jetta wagon auto
There must be a another control unit somewhere.

I bridged the red/black starter wire to the red/black ignition switch wire on the back of the 175 relay. When you turn on the ignition switch the starter does indeed kick on, but it doesn't turn off, the starter just keeps spinning.
 
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chirorob

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Auburn, AL
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2002 Jetta wagon auto
I went back out there and tested a few more things.
I do have a relay #53, but it is located at a different spot (bottom left) than the one shown in GdB's diagram in the .ppt file.

I had already cut and grounded the thin brown wire on the back of relay 175, but when I looked at the wires going into #53, there was a thin brown wire of the same size going into it. I checked it for continuity between the back side of relay #53 and the wire which used to go to relay #175 with an ohm meter, but it was not connected. It did show that wire was grounded on relay #53 as well as the remains of the wire behind #175.

This means I just grounded a wire which was already grounded. I reconnected the cut wire and soldered it together again and re-checked, it still shows ground.

None of the wires going into #53 ever show +12v with the ignition switch on the start setting, but 2 of the wires do go from neutral to +12v with the switch to the "on" setting.

Alphaseinor: Can you please take a pic of which wire you grounded? I don't see a thin brown wire going to the TCU, just the large thick one at pin #1 on the TCU connector.

I will try to source another relay 175 somewhere tomorrow to see if that might somehow be the issue.

In other news, with the key in the ignition and set to "on" position, I hear a slight hum noise - it sounds like either a power seat when it is moving, or a fuel pump priming. The noise comes on for a few seconds, off for a few seconds, and on again. If I pull relay #100 the noise stops, but that relay only has ONE wire going to it (which actually makes no sense at all), the noise also stops if I pull the huge relay at the bottom right - #374??. I have no clue what the noise is, or if it indicates an issue of some sort. This is getting really weird.
 
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alphaseinor

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'03 Jetta TDI 780,000 miles (totaled out), 01 Audi TT 225 Quattro 230,000 Miles (runs great!), 00 Cabreetle Beetle dash, ALH & MK4 harness Swap
Sorry, I've been on vacation... I'm better now...


There are two wires I grounded, they are the ones I showed you before.

Don't connect the starter through the ignition switch, the starter pulls more current then is allowed by the switch, that's why there is a relay.

I'll see if I can troubleshoot it a little more..

IIRC if you open the relay, you will notice a couple of NPN transistors which control where you are allowed to start the car, on the transmission it just connects the two wires that you crossed, I didn't check for ground since I was going to use the reverse relay for another reason (still not going to tell anyone what it's for!). My PN Relay is totally different since I gutted it and turned it into a relay, instead of a logic device.

It's either going to need ground on one Positive on one, or ground on both transmission leads to make it work. On the bench it worked (before I gutted it) it worked with them crossed, or grounded, so I made the assumption that it was pulling current from somewhere else, and decided to ground the connection. that worked fine (in my car) then I gutted it to make way for my secret relay project.
 

chirorob

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Auburn, AL
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2002 Jetta wagon auto
OK, I'll go back out tonight and see if those two wires cut and bridged at the TCU connector are grounded or have power to them, and try grounding both of them.
 

chirorob

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2002 Jetta wagon auto
Nope.. I left the two wires bridged at the TCU connector end, and then grounded them. No change at all.

I unbridged the two wires and then grounded both - no change

I powered one and grounded the other - no change

I bridged one to the brown (7) and powered the other - no change.



Alphaseinor - what exactly did you do? You mention using the PN relay for something else, and that is fine, but as a non-electrical engineer I just need to have a decent idea of how to solve the problem.
I don't have a clue what a NPN transistor is or how it works, so unfortunately I can't figure out a way to make half the little box work.

It doesn't really matter what you are doing with the PN relay slot, but if you can maybe PM me with how you converted it to a relay instead of a logic device, just the pertinent parts to getting the car to start and leave off the output to the secret spy cannon under the hood.

You said [quote alphaseinor] It's either going to need ground on one Positive on one, or ground on both transmission leads to make it work. On the bench it worked (before I gutted it) it worked with them crossed, or grounded, so I made the assumption that it was pulling current from somewhere else, and decided to ground the connection. that worked fine (in my car) then I gutted it to make way for my secret relay project.
[/quote alphaseinor]


What did you mean by "one positive on one"? Does that mean I should take that little brown wire and power it +12v, or take one of the two wires and hit it with +12v and ground the other (tried that and it didn't work)?
 

alphaseinor

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'03 Jetta TDI 780,000 miles (totaled out), 01 Audi TT 225 Quattro 230,000 Miles (runs great!), 00 Cabreetle Beetle dash, ALH & MK4 harness Swap
hrm... makes me wonder if yours is different than mine in some way... open the box and take a photo of the relay from the inside... let me see if it's a little different...

You may have to bypass the logic circuit on the board (I actually have done that on mine)... essentially removing all of the surface mount items, leaving the relay, then wiring directly. however there should be an easier way...

One of the leads should be grounded, one should be positive is what I meant... if that doesn't work, then we'll just have to gut the relay box. I'll see if I can post some photos of my relay... hopefully this isn't a 1999.5 only part.
 

chirorob

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2002 Jetta wagon auto
I stared at your "declawing" post - that one makes sense. I had a break so I drove home and tested things out.

Here is what works - bridge the two wires at the TCU again, then ground them (I just hooked the pair into the brown wire on pin 7 of the relay).

I then checked the yellow/blue wire, as it should have power when the ignition switch is turned on according to the short-version posted.

That wire (yellow/blue) DID NOT have power on it with ignition turned to start, so I bridged the green/black and yellow/blue at the relay. Hit the igition switch and Vrooooom.

I had to run back to work, but I'll have to go over the wiring once again when I get off work. I checked, and what I had is the green/black to one side of the reverse switch on the transmission, and the yellow/blue to the other side of the reverse switch.

EDIT: After looking at the GdB wiring instructions - that is what I followed as I read it.... I'm thinking if wired that way then the only way it would start is if you had the car in reverse. My shifter doesn't work (STILL) because the part just arrived at my father-in-law's shop today and will be overnighted Fedex Saturday delivery to arrive tomorrow. I can't test my theory at the moment, but if the reverse switch is open, then it will not connect the yellow/blue to the green/black. Put the car in reverse and it should close the reverse switch applying power from green/black to the blue/yellow and also the blue/black -> reverse lights. This would complete the circuit and flip that switch inside the relay allowing the solid red to bridge to the red/black -> starter. (Unless, of course, that is a normally closed switch for the reverse lights)

Maybe I screwed up that part (haven't looked at the diagram again since coming back), but otherwise all that is needed is a direct connect between those two wires, and a grounding of the red/yellow and red/grey to get the car to start properly.

EDIT2: Alright, after looking at it again, the blue/yellow shouldn't matter at all if the start circuit is indeed separate as indicated on the short version of the circuit diagram. If the logic circuit somehow cuts power (or ground) to the starter circuit then that would explain the issues I was having. I'll have to check the reverse lights to see if they come on when I bridge yellow/blue to the green/black. If I'm reading it right then by bridging the two I'd have the reverse lights on 24/7.
 
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chirorob

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Location
Auburn, AL
TDI
2002 Jetta wagon auto
wired as above = no reverse lights at startup, no full time reverse lights, but I can not test to see if the reverse lights actually come on when the car is in reverse.

I'll apologize in advance for the pictures I'm about to post - all I have is my camera phone at the moment.
 

NDVW

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May 17, 2005
TDI
2002 GLS white
I have a question before I decide to jump in with both feet in swaping out my auto. Is the transmission from a NB the same as in a Jetta? Have one scoped out for 500 nearby w/70000 miles on it.


Jamie
 

alphaseinor

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'03 Jetta TDI 780,000 miles (totaled out), 01 Audi TT 225 Quattro 230,000 Miles (runs great!), 00 Cabreetle Beetle dash, ALH & MK4 harness Swap
That looks identical to mine... I'll be able to take a photo when I get off of work (long story...). I'll be able to post sometime tomorrow with my soldering job.

basically, all of the SM junk on the bottom goes away... then you have to connect the correct wires for the relay to work.
it needs:
12v+
Gnd
Switched 12v
output (to starter)

Since the relay is just a switch that is electromagnetically closed or open (in this case open) The constant (non switched) 12v+ is on the switch side of the relay (it's the one with the movable contact) and the other side of the contact is the starter. Since it's a coil, it doesn't matter which side is positive or negative on the coil, it will still actuate the switched side. but the coil should be the side that is the switched 12v connected to a ground on the other side of the coil.

as for NDVW... the transmission is the same, but the rest is different... make sure it's from a TDI... check car-part.com I'm nearly positive the axels are a different length, but I'm not sure.
 

alphaseinor

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'03 Jetta TDI 780,000 miles (totaled out), 01 Audi TT 225 Quattro 230,000 Miles (runs great!), 00 Cabreetle Beetle dash, ALH & MK4 harness Swap
BTW, the top relay is the one for the starter, the bottom one is for the reverse lights.
 

jimbote

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spiral arm, milky way (aka central NC)
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Tacoma 4x4 converted to TDI
new beetle auto swap....

Ok....I'm pretty sure any A4 TDI axle will work for your auto to manual swap.....and if you want to use your stock auto axles (they are stronger)all you have to do is swap out the flanges on your tranny with 108mm VR6 or 1.8 turbo flanges from an O2J tranny.....salvage yard interchange calls for the same axles on all A4 manual TDI's golf/jetta/new beetle(left is TDI specific and right is the same for gassers and diesel alike).....and when I did a lookup at work on the vr6/1.8turbo axles for the jetta exactly the same part number as auto gasser axles....I even got under my Y2K bug with a verinier caliper took some carefull measurements of my auto tranny and compared them to the donor manual tranny ....exactly the same dimension as far as flange to flange distance, and even diff centerline is the same.....:)
 

chirorob

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Auburn, AL
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2002 Jetta wagon auto
Sweet info jimbote.

My little tidbit for today: The shifter piece came in and was installed in about 45 seconds... and then another 3 tries to get it shifting nicely.

I confirmed my hunch - at least on my 2002 jetta wagon if you wire it like alphaseinor/ GdB said before then the car will only start if shifted into reverse.

Hmm... I'm thinking it over - do I want to keep it that way as a "security feature", or hotwire it by connecting the green/black to the blue/yellow?

After further consideration, however, I got to thinking about the clutch switch. Now YMMV completely here, because Alphaseinor says his clutch switch is normally closed, and open when the clutch is pushed in.
I checked what I thought was my clutch switch - blue in color, and located lower on the clutch pedal. (This was the one I broke off when installing the pedal) I actually get connection on that one with the pin pushed in or out, it is just always closed. I totally could have broken it internally when the blue outside part cracked though, so I can't be sure about it.

I have a second clutch switch, which is white and located way up at the top of the pedal assembly. Bingo! Normally open, push the clutch pedal in and it closes the switch.

For my application at least here is the proper wiring scheme to get it to work including the clutch switch.


Automatic to Manual wiring instructions for a 2002 Jetta Wagon TDI:
(should work for all A4s but YMMV)

Pop the lower dash panels off and pull out the relay panel.
Find relay 175

Cut the red/grey wire and red/yellow wires and ground them.

Now you get to decide how you want your car to work, and wire accordingly.

Cranking options:
1) To start only in reverse, but still with no clutch safety switch just follow the engine bay instructions below
2) To start with no clutch safety switch, but also no gear requirement just connect the yellow/blue to the green/black on the back of relay 175.
3) To crank like a normal manual (no gear requirement, clutch must be pushed in) then connect the yellow/blue to one side of the white clutch switch and connect the green/black to the other side of the white clutch switch. * NOTE: Do NOT cut the green/black or yellow/blue but connect into them.

** Note: I'll leave the method of connection up to you. Some prefer to remove pins and insert new wires with pins properly into the harness, some prefer to solder, some may want to try clamp-on connectors. I went with the soldering method personally, and won't get into a which is best debate which I'm sure will ensue.

Now Go to the engine bay

Pull the airbox access panel by removing the 4 phillips screws and sliding it out and up.

Slide the TCU connector off by pushing the handle on the driver's side of the TCU toward the driver's side of the car (it is a sliding lock)
You can remove the TCU and try to ebay it, or just leave it sitting there.

Located in the wiring under the airbox area: take the transmission switch connector (pictured many pages back), and using your method of choice connect the yellow/blue wire to one side of the manual transmission reverse lamp switch. Connect the green/black wire to the other side of the transmission reverse lamp switch. (reverse lamp switch also pictured many pages back).

Tada! That should be it for the wiring.

I need to go back out and test my new clutch safety switch idea, but I see no reason at all why it wouldn't work.
 

chirorob

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Mar 5, 2001
Location
Auburn, AL
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2002 Jetta wagon auto
The clutch switch works, but now I don't have reverse lights, even if I hook it up the way it was before I still don't get reverse lights.

The car also starts if shifted in reverse with no clutch pushed in. :(

I checked the in cabin fuses, they are all good so that shouldn't be the issue with the reverse lights, but I really don't see what could have changed.

In other news, VAG-COM shows lots of faults, ABS, convenience, ECU, TCU etc.

I'm wondering if that TCU has other functions besides just the auto transmission, and what happens if we hook it back up?

The car drives fine, I can't believe how soft the clutch is, especially compared to my ACT XT/SS combo on my nissan.
 

NDVW

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May 17, 2005
TDI
2002 GLS white
I actually have a Jetta...the transmission is out of a NB. Glad that they are the same. Now just have to give them a call and get all the parts I need.

Alphasenior....how much of an increase in mpg have you seen? Don't remember seeing you say or anyone ask you that. Just curious.

Keep up the good work. Hope you get the wiring sorted out


Jamie
 

jimbote

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Jul 10, 2006
Location
spiral arm, milky way (aka central NC)
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Tacoma 4x4 converted to TDI
start relay.....

Rob....I think what your running into is your trying to route the reverse lamps through the logic circuit on the PNP relay the relay sees input on from the reverse circuit and everything screws up.....on the manual cars there is no reverse relay, the switch handles all the current....I may be adding more fuel to the flame of frustration and I may be repeating informaton so please forgive:eek: , but try this for your starter circuit....the logic relay needs to see current from the Transmission Range Switch and since you don't have one anymore you need to "trick" the PNP relay into thinking the car is in neutral or park.....the wire that sends this 12v signal to the PNP is the red/yellow from the TRS, a good 12 volt source is already going to the relay it is the red/black wire coming from the theft starter lock relay...just tap into this (don't cut) and connect it to the loose end of the red/yellow....also there is a red black going from the PNP to the ECM this wire is not present on manual cars and it may be sending false signals to the ECM and causing your ABS codes....you can cut this wire and use if for the 12v feed to the red/yellow or just cut and tape.....OK now you want your clutch switch to work right?....OK the PNP has brown ground wire, cut this and connect to one wire of your clutch position switch (the very top switch on your clutch) and attach the other wire of your clutch position switch to ground....OK as far as the reverse lights don't try to run it through the relay....this will only screw up the logic circuit as I think you have already seen....find which wire on the PNP goes to the reverse lamps, cut it, run a wire from there to one terminal on you backup switch and the other wire on the backup switch run to a switched 12v source with a 10 amp fuse.....I've been studying diagrams all morning (bentley and otherwise) so I hope this helps but of course my car is a Y2K Bug so there may be differences......:rolleyes:
 

alphaseinor

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'03 Jetta TDI 780,000 miles (totaled out), 01 Audi TT 225 Quattro 230,000 Miles (runs great!), 00 Cabreetle Beetle dash, ALH & MK4 harness Swap
NDVW said:
Alphasenior....how much of an increase in mpg have you seen? Don't remember seeing you say or anyone ask you that. Just curious.
My previous best was 32mpg with the automatic, and my current best was 46 on my trip to colorado (80-85 MPH the whole way).
 

alphaseinor

TDI Innovator, Gone but Not Forgotten
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Jul 30, 2006
Location
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TDI
'03 Jetta TDI 780,000 miles (totaled out), 01 Audi TT 225 Quattro 230,000 Miles (runs great!), 00 Cabreetle Beetle dash, ALH & MK4 harness Swap
chirorob said:
In other news, VAG-COM shows lots of faults, ABS, convenience, ECU, TCU etc.
You should clear all of the codes from the various modules, then you shouldn't see any... if you do, then you have something that is loose. Clear all of the modules, and post the scan here.
 
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