Project Kill Da Auto Wabbit!, Or how I learned to love the Manual Swap

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alphaseinor

TDI Innovator, Gone but Not Forgotten
Joined
Jul 30, 2006
Location
Denton, TX
TDI
'03 Jetta TDI 780,000 miles (totaled out), 01 Audi TT 225 Quattro 230,000 Miles (runs great!), 00 Cabreetle Beetle dash, ALH & MK4 harness Swap
Is there a key that is flashing on the dash?

you don't swap the ECUs, you run into IMMO issues... in the 2002 you will need a key from the cluster, then you will need to adapt the ECU back.
 
Captain Morgan

Captain Morgan

Veteran Member
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Oct 7, 2010
Location
08050, NJ
TDI
2000 Jetta GLS TDI
Alright, I was going to make my own thread for this but I see this thread is still extremely active so I will try here first.

I've had my 01M 2000 Jetta for 10 days now. I fixed the solenoid issues the automatic had, tossed in a new filter and flushed it out with new fluid, however I think a valve issue still exists.

I planned on doing a 5-speed swap anyway, and I just happened to stumble upon a 1999.5 VR6 5-Speed car with a bad engine for less than a used trans would cost me from a boneyard. Even for the small parts alone its a "no brainer" to pick it up.

It seems that the electrical side of things seems to be the hardest part for people to tackle, I downloaded the Word Doc on page one and seems pretty straight forward.

My main questions are;
With exception to VAG-COM and picking up a Manual TDI starter, should I technically have EVERYTHING I need to do this swap since I will have a complete parts car? Or is there something else I'll need to buy?

The VR6 Flywheel, Clutch & P. Plate. I believe these will all work with the TDI correct? Are they ideal? I dont plan on making this into a race car and the VR6 has more HP and Torque than the TDI, so stock stuff should be no problem?
EDIT: ok, so the famed G60 clutch is the same that is in this 99.5 Jetta, so it should be fine for me. The funny thing is, I can get a replacement Clutch/P. Plate Kit for $361.63 my cost, or I can get a single mass Flywheel conversion kit, which also includes the Clutch, P. Plate, T. Bearing, all necessary bolts, ect.... for $371.65?? Damn, I cant pass up a $10.02 Flywheel & Hardware!


I dont think the 99.5 Trans will allow me to use the nice short shifter, are their other options I have no stumbled upon yet?
 
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A

alphaseinor

TDI Innovator, Gone but Not Forgotten
Joined
Jul 30, 2006
Location
Denton, TX
TDI
'03 Jetta TDI 780,000 miles (totaled out), 01 Audi TT 225 Quattro 230,000 Miles (runs great!), 00 Cabreetle Beetle dash, ALH & MK4 harness Swap
Unfortunately the flywheel (different bolt pattern), transmission (different bolt pattern), possibly starter (who knows???) is different...

I think the shifter, clutch pedal, switches are the same, also you'll be forced to find a 99.5 transmission since the shifter linkage is different starting sometime in 2000, they made another change in mid 2001.

The wiring is actually pretty straightforward, but some people don't check continuity, and just go by wire color. That's where they run into problems...

Yup, still pretty active, I'd say...

Do a google search for TDIinnovations google site and you'll find my latest version of the wiring instructions.
 
Captain Morgan

Captain Morgan

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Oct 7, 2010
Location
08050, NJ
TDI
2000 Jetta GLS TDI
alphaseinor said:
Unfortunately the flywheel (different bolt pattern), transmission (different bolt pattern), possibly starter (who knows???) is different...
Click to expand...
really? Different bolt pattern on MK4 transmission? I'm not doubting you, Ive just had a bunch of other people tell me they were all the same its just the gears that are different and try to argue that the 1.8T trans would be "better" for the swap, which its not.

The Flywheel im not too worried about, single mass kit is easy to obtain and a local yard has a manual TDI starter or I can buy a new one for $151.70. The TDI starters are different from the gas cars and even the Auto and Manuals are different from each other.

I think the shifter, clutch pedal, switches are the same, also you'll be forced to find a 99.5 transmission since the shifter linkage is different starting sometime in 2000, they made another change in mid 2001.
Click to expand...
ok, lost me on this one, why do I need to find another 99.5 trans when this car is a 99.5?

The wiring is actually pretty straightforward, but some people don't check continuity, and just go by wire color. That's where they run into problems...
Click to expand...
I will be sure to do that, thanks for the heads up :D:D

Yup, still pretty active, I'd say...

Do a google search for TDIinnovations google site and you'll find my latest version of the wiring instructions.
Click to expand...
I've already got it bookmarked, Ill search around for the updated wiring instructions, thank you.
 
A

alphaseinor

TDI Innovator, Gone but Not Forgotten
Joined
Jul 30, 2006
Location
Denton, TX
TDI
'03 Jetta TDI 780,000 miles (totaled out), 01 Audi TT 225 Quattro 230,000 Miles (runs great!), 00 Cabreetle Beetle dash, ALH & MK4 harness Swap
the bolt pattern on a VR6 is different from the 1.8 or TDI, so you'll need to find another transmission from a TDI; Since the linkage is proprietary to 1999.5 you'll need to find one from 1999.5 or a 98 beetle.

If you want to cruise around at 75MPH revving 3500 RPM, then go with the 1.8T transmission... I think you top out at something like 100MPH at redline on the TDI.

Technically the manual starters from a 1.8T will mount, but generally I've found they don't work as well as one from a TDI.
 
Captain Morgan

Captain Morgan

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Joined
Oct 7, 2010
Location
08050, NJ
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2000 Jetta GLS TDI
alphaseinor said:
the bolt pattern on a VR6 is different from the 1.8 or TDI, so you'll need to find another transmission from a TDI; Since the linkage is proprietary to 1999.5 you'll need to find one from 1999.5 or a 98 beetle.

If you want to cruise around at 75MPH revving 3500 RPM, then go with the 1.8T transmission... I think you top out at something like 100MPH at redline on the TDI.

Technically the manual starters from a 1.8T will mount, but generally I've found they don't work as well as one from a TDI.
Click to expand...
Oh I see what youre saying now, if I stick with the 99.5 for all my doaner parts Ill need to find a 99.5 trans because of the linkage.

Well, lets put it this way, a 1999.5 VR6 5-Speed for $500, I'm not going to walk away from it. I will either use the parts I need from it and part out the rest & search for a TDI trans and just buy new linkage if it happens to be a newer trans OR Ill fix the VR6 and sell the car and use the profit to find and search out all the stuff I need, one or the other. Either way I can't really lose.

and youre right, 77MPH @ 3500RPM with the 1.8T trans. No matter what I get Ill be installing a slightly taller 5th gear, but the 1.8T does not look like a practical option when you crunch the numbers on the gears.
 
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TonyJetta

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Sep 15, 2005
Location
Tucson, Az
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'15 Jetta TDI SE / '06 Jetta TDI DSG Pkg0 / '96 Passat TDI
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the gear ratios different for a TDI trans vs. a gas vs. a v6 trans?

Tony
 
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alphaseinor

TDI Innovator, Gone but Not Forgotten
Joined
Jul 30, 2006
Location
Denton, TX
TDI
'03 Jetta TDI 780,000 miles (totaled out), 01 Audi TT 225 Quattro 230,000 Miles (runs great!), 00 Cabreetle Beetle dash, ALH & MK4 harness Swap
Yes the transmission ratios are different for the TDI, I regularly cruise about 2800RPM at 75 ish MPH. No 5th gear modification... with the .658 it's usually closer to 2500.

It's not just the gear ratio, but it's also the ring and pinion is a different ratio. the holy grail is the 1z transmission gears, I can't remember the ratio, but they are very hard to find, and usually cost as much as a transmission, but you can get the RPMs down to something like 2200 RPM... using a .658
 
Captain Morgan

Captain Morgan

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Location
08050, NJ
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2000 Jetta GLS TDI
TonyJetta said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the gear ratios different for a TDI trans vs. a gas vs. a v6 trans?
Tony
Click to expand...
yup, but the VR6 & TDI share the same Ring and Pinion, which is why I was considering it.
the 1.8T and TDI trans are nearly the same through 1st and 2nd even with their very different Ring and Pinions, but the 1.8T starts learning towards lower gears once it hits 3rd. Let me see if I can figure out how to add some charts to this post. I was bored the other night, :D
Code: 
[FONT="Courier New"]
02J (TDI)       1st Gear 2nd Gear 3rd Gear 4th Gear 5th Gear Ring & Pinion
Gear Ratio   	3.777     2.118    1.360    0.097    0.756    3.389
Final Drv Ratio 12.800    7.180    4.610    3.290    2.560    N/A
Speed@2250 RPM	13        23       37       51       66       N/A
---
02J (1.8T)	1st Gear 2nd Gear 3rd Gear 4th Gear 5th Gear Ring & Pinion
Gear Ratio	3.300     1.944    1.308    1.029    0.837    3.938
Final Drv Ratio	13.000    7.660    5.510    4.050    3.300    N/A
Speed@2250 RPM	13        22       33       42       51       N/A
---
02J (VR6)	1st Gear 2nd Gear 3rd Gear 4th Gear 5th Gear Ring & Pinion
Gear Ratio	3.625     2.071     1.474    1.083    0.844   3.389
Final Drv Ratio	12.290    7.020     5.000    3.520    2.860   N/A
Speed@2250 RPM	14        24        34       48       59      N/A[/FONT]
 
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alphaseinor

TDI Innovator, Gone but Not Forgotten
Joined
Jul 30, 2006
Location
Denton, TX
TDI
'03 Jetta TDI 780,000 miles (totaled out), 01 Audi TT 225 Quattro 230,000 Miles (runs great!), 00 Cabreetle Beetle dash, ALH & MK4 harness Swap
If you look on the websites, make sure you pay specific attention to the bolt pattern, the VR6 is reversed from the 4cyl, so if you want to swap the gear stack from the vr6 to the 4cyl bellhousing portion, then you'll have a lot of work...

check car-part.com for transmissions, they are cheaper than you think, I've been able to find the transmissions for about $600-$700
 
S

SteelyTed

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Location
Tulsa
TDI
2002 Jetta GLS TDI 800mile club
alphaseinor said:
Is there a key that is flashing on the dash?

you don't swap the ECUs, you run into IMMO issues... in the 2002 you will need a key from the cluster, then you will need to adapt the ECU back.
Click to expand...
Thank You ever so much my friend!! Without you and GDB blazing the trail I would never have even considered doing this swap. Our 01M bit the dust at 168K miles with very little warning at all. Driving my old Chevy truck 100+ miles everyday on my commute was kickin' our financial arse! Just took her around the block for the first time with the 5 speed!! Still need to figure out how to get my speedo working and yes I have that flashing key on the instrument panel along with the CEL, but I'll work on that this wkd. Next time i'm in the DFW area I'm stopping in to shake your hand, or hell I'm givin' you a big manhug and buyin' you a Texas size rib-eye!

Special thanks to GDB as well as everyone else who has contributed valuable info to this procedure! I just hope that someday I can help others in such a valuable way!
Ted
 
Captain Morgan

Captain Morgan

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2010
Location
08050, NJ
TDI
2000 Jetta GLS TDI
alphaseinor said:
If you look on the websites, make sure you pay specific attention to the bolt pattern, the VR6 is reversed from the 4cyl, so if you want to swap the gear stack from the vr6 to the 4cyl bellhousing portion, then you'll have a lot of work...

check car-part.com for transmissions, they are cheaper than you think, I've been able to find the transmissions for about $600-$700
Click to expand...
yeah I have no interest in swapping gear sets.

love car-part.com, Im on there at least a dozen times a day unfortunately the cheapest TDI 5-speed is $800, Id rather keep searching for a $1500 TDI parts car.
 
jimbote

jimbote

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spiral arm, milky way (aka central NC)
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Tacoma 4x4 converted to TDI
TonyJetta said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the gear ratios different for a TDI trans vs. a gas vs. a v6 trans?

Tony
Click to expand...
If you wanted you could swap a VR6 guts to a four cylinder case add the TDI fifth and you'd be good to go as the VR6 has the same R&P as the TDI ...and first through fourth are close enough...I have a VR tranny and a four cylinder case in the shop that beckons this :)
 
A

alphaseinor

TDI Innovator, Gone but Not Forgotten
Joined
Jul 30, 2006
Location
Denton, TX
TDI
'03 Jetta TDI 780,000 miles (totaled out), 01 Audi TT 225 Quattro 230,000 Miles (runs great!), 00 Cabreetle Beetle dash, ALH & MK4 harness Swap
SteelyTed said:
Thank You ever so much my friend!! Without you and GDB blazing the trail I would never have even considered doing this swap. Our 01M bit the dust at 168K miles with very little warning at all. Driving my old Chevy truck 100+ miles everyday on my commute was kickin' our financial arse! Just took her around the block for the first time with the 5 speed!! Still need to figure out how to get my speedo working and yes I have that flashing key on the instrument panel along with the CEL, but I'll work on that this wkd. Next time i'm in the DFW area I'm stopping in to shake your hand, or hell I'm givin' you a big manhug and buyin' you a Texas size rib-eye!

Special thanks to GDB as well as everyone else who has contributed valuable info to this procedure! I just hope that someday I can help others in such a valuable way!
Ted
Click to expand...
Thanks Ted, hope everything else works fine...

Usually people forget to plug in the speedo cable on the top of the differential of the transmission... shouldn't be anything major
 
Captain Morgan

Captain Morgan

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Location
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2000 Jetta GLS TDI
damnit, the VR6 axles are useless too, they are the same as the Automatic axles that are already in my car.... GRRRRRRRR..... unless I the cross reference for the manual VR6 isnt coming up for some reason.

So far the only "useful" parts are going to be the clutch pedal, slave cylinder, master cylinder, brackets & switches, relay and thats about it.
 
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A

alphaseinor

TDI Innovator, Gone but Not Forgotten
Joined
Jul 30, 2006
Location
Denton, TX
TDI
'03 Jetta TDI 780,000 miles (totaled out), 01 Audi TT 225 Quattro 230,000 Miles (runs great!), 00 Cabreetle Beetle dash, ALH & MK4 harness Swap
Yes, the cables are the same for all of the 1999.5..

The VR6 axles are better than the manual axles on the TDI, and the flanges are easily changed on the proper transmission. (actually they command quite a price, $100 a set before trade).

IIRC the brake calipers are larger, better spindles, better calipers, etc... better springrates on all four wheels, etc... lots of goodies on the car that are improved or stronger from the TDI... I don't remember if the 99.5 VR6 has a different rear brake or not... could be...
 
Captain Morgan

Captain Morgan

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2000 Jetta GLS TDI
alphaseinor said:
Yes, the cables are the same for all of the 1999.5..

The VR6 axles are better than the manual axles on the TDI, and the flanges are easily changed on the proper transmission. (actually they command quite a price, $100 a set before trade).

IIRC the brake calipers are larger, better spindles, better calipers, etc... better springrates on all four wheels, etc... lots of goodies on the car that are improved or stronger from the TDI... I don't remember if the 99.5 VR6 has a different rear brake or not... could be...
Click to expand...
yeah I did read some stuff on the bigger brakes but I wasnt able to confirm 100% what came on what car. Seems 280mm and 288mm are the two common sizes, but when I look up replacement calipers for the VR6 (even 2000 model year), it makes note of the 280mm rotor, not the 288mm. I would think the bigger rotor would be the better choice :confused:

I didnt know the flanges were the difference, I thought it was length or diameter of the CV shaft itself that would be different. When I look up the part numbers, it shows that VR6 and Automatic TDI use the same axles, so does that mean if I got a 2000+ TDI 5-Speed I could swap the flanges from either the VR6 or my Auto and use the CV's as well? If so that would be nice and a $$$ saver as well.

Starting to feel a little better about this purchase :D

Its funny, I can put an GM LS1 into a 1952 Cadillac and a LS2 into a BMW, but this VW stuff drives me in circles, lol.
 
A

alphaseinor

TDI Innovator, Gone but Not Forgotten
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Location
Denton, TX
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'03 Jetta TDI 780,000 miles (totaled out), 01 Audi TT 225 Quattro 230,000 Miles (runs great!), 00 Cabreetle Beetle dash, ALH & MK4 harness Swap
Yup, the flanges come off with just a 6mm bolt, you have to push the flange in to make it bite on reassembly, but it's not bad...

However the Automatic flanges are nowhere close to the same, they mount internally much different...
 
Captain Morgan

Captain Morgan

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Location
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2000 Jetta GLS TDI
alphaseinor said:
Yup, the flanges come off with just a 6mm bolt, you have to push the flange in to make it bite on reassembly, but it's not bad...

However the Automatic flanges are nowhere close to the same, they mount internally much different...
Click to expand...
cool, so there will be some useful parts on this car after all :D

man, you should get your screen name changed to VW Yoda, you seem to know everything!
 
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alphaseinor

TDI Innovator, Gone but Not Forgotten
Joined
Jul 30, 2006
Location
Denton, TX
TDI
'03 Jetta TDI 780,000 miles (totaled out), 01 Audi TT 225 Quattro 230,000 Miles (runs great!), 00 Cabreetle Beetle dash, ALH & MK4 harness Swap
when 660,000 miles you reach, look as good you will not... muheheheheeee... cough...
 
S

SLVVR6

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Utah
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2000 Jetta
Real Time Help...

So I got the transmission in position and am scratching my head as to how the lower trans cover/tin (02A301157C) fits on the engine. Does it go between the larger engine spacer and the engine or the tranny and the larger spacer? It just doesn't look like it fits at all There is just no room for this cover to go up there. Is it possible that I don't use this? I just am really scratching my head here.
 
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alphaseinor

TDI Innovator, Gone but Not Forgotten
Joined
Jul 30, 2006
Location
Denton, TX
TDI
'03 Jetta TDI 780,000 miles (totaled out), 01 Audi TT 225 Quattro 230,000 Miles (runs great!), 00 Cabreetle Beetle dash, ALH & MK4 harness Swap
I've found a photo of that part, and it looks like the shield on a mk3, you need this part number 06A103645M that one will connect to 06A103645 that should have been installed behind the flywheel between the engine and transmission
 
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alphaseinor

TDI Innovator, Gone but Not Forgotten
Joined
Jul 30, 2006
Location
Denton, TX
TDI
'03 Jetta TDI 780,000 miles (totaled out), 01 Audi TT 225 Quattro 230,000 Miles (runs great!), 00 Cabreetle Beetle dash, ALH & MK4 harness Swap
Updated the part number on rodrigues parts... Sorry, didn't realize it was incorrect until now...
 
S

SLVVR6

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Oct 22, 2009
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Utah
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2000 Jetta
I spent an hour last night trying to figure out how the heck that fit up there. You are talking about the little cover that is held on with the small bolt? I assume it goes on after the tranny is installed? Forgot to install it last night. No issues installing it with the tranny in, right?
 
A

alphaseinor

TDI Innovator, Gone but Not Forgotten
Joined
Jul 30, 2006
Location
Denton, TX
TDI
'03 Jetta TDI 780,000 miles (totaled out), 01 Audi TT 225 Quattro 230,000 Miles (runs great!), 00 Cabreetle Beetle dash, ALH & MK4 harness Swap
No issues installing it with the transmission, axles, well... everything, just a little tight... actually it's supposed to be removed for installation, so the axle flange will fit, otherwise it would bend the shield.

I think you've got it working right...
 
S

SLVVR6

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Utah
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2000 Jetta
One more question, I read either somewhere in this thread or on another one that you don't use the spacer found between the flexplate and the crank, is that correct? Hope so, because that is what I did. There was another spacer (not sure if it is called a spacer) on the outside of the flexplate as well. I used none of the spacers.
 
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alphaseinor

TDI Innovator, Gone but Not Forgotten
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Location
Denton, TX
TDI
'03 Jetta TDI 780,000 miles (totaled out), 01 Audi TT 225 Quattro 230,000 Miles (runs great!), 00 Cabreetle Beetle dash, ALH & MK4 harness Swap
The spacers go away, basically the spacers are only for the automatic transmission... IIRC they cause problems if they are installed since they have a dissimilar metal from the crank/flywheel and eventually loosen the flywheel bolts.
 
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