What is Handling?

FlyTDI Guy

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 3, 2001
Location
PNW
TDI
'01 Jetta GLS
This truly is an epic thread. Double bump...
Addendum: Just realized this isn't a sticky :eek:. Absolutely should be. (hint, hint)
 
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FlyTDI Guy

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 3, 2001
Location
PNW
TDI
'01 Jetta GLS
GoFaster said:
I've already stickied this in the past, only to have someone else inexplicably un-sticky it and never own up to it. I'll try again!
Go figure... :D
 

ReferenceDesign

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2003
Location
Atlanta, Ga
I have not read all the prior posts so hold the flames please :). Just an observation. My MkIV with the LSD has undergone an amazing if not perplexing handling change when the 6 speed went in. In poor grip conditions forget it. Throttle induced understeer to the max. But with modest grip with the Exalto Pilots the handling is superb. So much so that I am afraid to get the car aligned such that some partime tech will set things back to some lame factory default.

My "custom" chassis setup came while putting the Koni FSDs on with the shorter springs and setting the lower ball joint to whatever. The handling was very neutral. so much so that it surprised me that a FWD could feel like it was about to have throttle drift. The LSD came later and drastically improved the corner exit. The only downside was the 6 speed has such a short second and long third that conventional corners are at a loss for the proper gear.

So if one wants to have this neutral handling what is the preferred alignment components that affect this trait?
 

Joe Golf

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2001
Location
Vero Beach Florida
TDI
2017 Passat 1.8T
I really miss Pyce and Ceilidh pitching their A4 ideas back and forth. The hours of reading enjoyment they have provided is priceless. :)
 

vlad prica

Member
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Location
toronto
TDI
mk4 golf
mk4 coilovers?

hi i have a mk4 golf tdi i want to know what coil overs to get as well as how low can i go thanx.
 

TornadoRed

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 3, 2003
Location
West Des Moines (formerly St Paul)
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI wagon, silver; 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, indigo blue; 2003 Golf GL 5-spd, red (PARTED); 2003 Golf GLS 5-spd, indigo blue (SOLD); 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, Candy White (SOLD)
hi i have a mk4 golf tdi i want to know what coil overs to get as well as how low can i go thanx.
Most of the information in this thread, even the posts from 2006 and 2007, is still relevant today. At least for Mk4 models like yours.
 
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blowinsmoke

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 14, 2007
Location
Chappaqua, NY
TDI
05 Jetta wagon, giac, koni, eibach and Team 1.2's, 3/4 ton 6.2 PU W/BAnks kit, Suburban 6.2, MB 220
Koni FSD's, Eibach Pro springs and swaybars.

Hi,
I had posted on the "What did you do to your car" thread...this one makes more sense.
I installed the parts over the course of a day and WOW what a difference, love it as it's not leaning over and I have decent ground clearance. I'll be fitting the 17"x7" Team Dynamics pro race 1.2's within a few days and post more pics.
 

Nuttendiesel

Veteran Member
Joined
May 5, 2012
Location
Seal Beach, CA
TDI
2013 Passat SEL with Malone 1.5 tune, 2014 535d, 2008 F250 6.4
Very cool thread, I am new here, so new that I do not even have a TDI yet!, waiting for the 2013 passat, I have been a big fan of diesel since 1994 but have never owned a diesel car only ford 3/4 ton trucks, a story for another thread, I would like to share my one and only experience with suspension mods on my 2010 Honda Accord.

One day while traveling on the freeway some road debris popped up at the last second and my reaction with a jerk of the steering wheel was to notice how bad the stock car handled, tires squealed and could not get around the obstacle, I started to do a google search on tire,wheel,suspension mods and after searching a few hours over a couple of weeks I took the plunge, the first thing I did was to change to tein SS coil overs and add a large diameter rear sway bar, handling was improved drastically, since the the car was lowered about 1.4 inches doing this my rear camber was to negative and the stock set up could not compensate for this so an after market adjustable camber kit was installed and at the same time I changed the the wheels and tires, going with the lightest wheels of the size I wanted (18x8.5) and Michelin super sports in 245/40, now handling was improved again and the steering felt more weighted, the last thing I did was to add all the chassis bracing I could find, about 7 pcs. total, this made the steering so tight and responsive that I could not believe the difference, this car could corner as hard as our 2008 535i with a sport package, handling was so precise I could not imagine I was in an Accord!

Fast forward to months later, the car still handles like a dream, I am growing tired of the ride quality (or lack of it!) very stiff compared to stock as you feel every bit of the road, road noise is up as well, the front frame cross bar I installed also bottoms easily on dips/driveways, hard cornering into dips sometimes feels like the rear inside tire lifts as suspension travel is so restricted, a fractional movement of the steering wheel sees you to the next lane fast so you have to be on your toes at freeway speeds.

I had an occasion to avoid an accident once in my newly modified car, I was traveling at about 35 when a pick up suddenly decided to make a left in front of me when I was already entering the intersection, I cranked the wheel to the right and braced for impact, the tires bit hard and the force at which the car turned surprised me as I was able to get out of the way of the front of the truck I cranked the wheel hard back to the left and the car recovered just as fast seeing me through the intersection, in the stock car this is an accident for sure.

To wrap it up, the car is a darter, wherever you point it it goes and fast, is it fun to drive, yes, but at a price, my wife does not like to ride with me as she gets car sick easy in my car, would I do it again, yes and no, not in the same way, I would compromise next time as I would give up some handling to gain comfort and a little more suspension travel, I just figure my darting days are over
 
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mr.mindless

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2006
Location
Rochester, NY
TDI
2002 Galactic Blue Jetta GLS
I bet if you could step back to 16s or 17s a lot of the harshness would go away. Splitting the height difference on a drop is though though, I bet a lot would need to change to go up 3/4".
 

Nuttendiesel

Veteran Member
Joined
May 5, 2012
Location
Seal Beach, CA
TDI
2013 Passat SEL with Malone 1.5 tune, 2014 535d, 2008 F250 6.4
When the tires wear out I am going to 245/45/18's as I have plenty of room to clear them and at that time I think I can take the coilovers up about 3/8" without a problem, I will need to change the alignment but I think those 2 things together will give me approx. 3/4" more clearance and the little extra sidewall just might help smooth things out a tiny bit?

I test drove a 2012 Passat TDI SEL and the ride was so SMOOTH! but I know I cannot leave it stock as it just does not have that handling i'm used to, the pilot super sports together with the coilovers and chasis bracing makes for one awesome handling car, there has to be a better compromise though for the Passat so I can get most of the handling and still retain a decent ride quality.
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
Just bear in mind that the front double-wishbone setup on your Accord reacts very differently to ride height changes from the MacPherson arrangement on the VW (and almost everything else).

Wheels and tires make more difference than anything else.
 

CME4MPG

Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2012
Location
Ahwatukee in Phoenix, AZ
TDI
2000 Golf 2-door TDI, 2004 Jetta TDI
Revival of suspension thread?

Hey guys, I am VERY new to the VW TDI crowd and have recently acquired a slightly modified 2000 Golf 5-speed, 2-door w/ about 140,000 miles on the odometer.

I can't begin to say how thankful I am already for this site and this thread as I was mentally preparing to go down a very 'poor' path to achieve my intended goals.

After reading the thread it seems that the GT setup is closest to my inentions as I use this vehicle primarily for a weekly 500 mile round trip and wanted to great fuel economy. I also have an itch for a comfortable and compliant ride, while attaining good looks and a bit more performance. I would consider myself to be just a bit better than the average driver as I have autocrossed a few times with some long-time racers, but I do NOT wish to be scared on my commute which will occasionally be had at 75mph in the rain and may also have to traverse snow at much lower speeds from time-to-time.

So, here are my questions:
1. Is there a comprehensive bushing kit that contains all suspension related items? Consensus on rubber vs. urethane?
2. Since 2006(ish) has there been any consensus on the BEST, or best value, strut/shock for a GT-type setup?
3. Is there a higher quality, but stock spring-rate spring set that is thought to be the BEST, or best value? Do factory springs wear?
4. How does selection of wheel/tire combo impact selection of spring/struts/shocks? (my vehicle currently has 225/45ZR17's wrapped around 17" GTI wheels)...I have thought about seeking a lighter solution and/or a 15" steel wheel...

Any help or links to 'newer' data would be much appreciated!
 

oldpoopie

Vendor
Joined
May 14, 2001
Location
Portland Oregon
TDI
2001 golf gl, 2006 jetta, 1981 ALH swapped rabbit pickup, 1998 beetle
enkei rpf1 in a 16" or even 17" will give you a huge weight savings. With good tires it will make a world of difference.
 

03Springer

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2003
Location
Southern Nevada
TDI
2003 Golf GL+ 2013 A3 TDI
I would like to add to this thread when it comes to handling and ride comfort. If your rear axle bushings (original) are nearing 10 years or over 150K they should be changed. I just recently replaced mine and the car handles and rides remarkedly better. I have 165K on my 10 year old Golf and I should have replaced them a year or so ago.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
The above is especially true if shocks aren't replaced when worn. When I talk to customers who are replacing rear axle bushings it's almost universally true that they left the OE dampers in the car for well over 100K. Fact is the stock stuff is shot at 50-60K, and once it's worn it puts additional stress on the bushings (front and rear).

I have the original rear axle bushings in my wagon at 267K, and they show very little deterioration. I may replace them regardless in the Spring.
 

03Springer

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2003
Location
Southern Nevada
TDI
2003 Golf GL+ 2013 A3 TDI
The above is especially true if shocks aren't replaced when worn. When I talk to customers who are replacing rear axle bushings it's almost universally true that they left the OE dampers in the car for well over 100K. Fact is the stock stuff is shot at 50-60K, and once it's worn it puts additional stress on the bushings (front and rear).

I have the original rear axle bushings in my wagon at 267K, and they show very little deterioration. I may replace them regardless in the Spring.
Peter,

I replaced the original shocks/struts at 60K with Koni Reds which I purchased from you at ID Parts. The shocks have held up fine, but the ride quality diminished over the last 20K miles. I also think the new style bushings have more give then the original oil filled bushings.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
Could be. I'll probably try the Cupra bushings when I replace mine My TT control arm and subframe bushings are also going on 150K so it may be time to refresh those, too.
 

TornadoRed

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 3, 2003
Location
West Des Moines (formerly St Paul)
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI wagon, silver; 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, indigo blue; 2003 Golf GL 5-spd, red (PARTED); 2003 Golf GLS 5-spd, indigo blue (SOLD); 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, Candy White (SOLD)
Peter,
I replaced the original shocks/struts at 60K with Koni Reds which I purchased from you at ID Parts. The shocks have held up fine, but the ride quality diminished over the last 20K miles. I also think the new style bushings have more give then the original oil filled bushings.
I replaced my original struts and shocks at about 100k miles, also with Koni Reds. Now the Reds have 300k miles on them and they still seem to be working fine. The bushings, front and rear, have been replaced a couple times.
 

ions

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 13, 2002
Location
Burlington,ON, Canada
Hey guys, I am VERY new to the VW TDI crowd and have recently acquired a slightly modified 2000 Golf 5-speed, 2-door w/ about 140,000 miles on the odometer.
I can't begin to say how thankful I am already for this site and this thread as I was mentally preparing to go down a very 'poor' path to achieve my intended goals.
After reading the thread it seems that the GT setup is closest to my inentions as I use this vehicle primarily for a weekly 500 mile round trip and wanted to great fuel economy. I also have an itch for a comfortable and compliant ride, while attaining good looks and a bit more performance. I would consider myself to be just a bit better than the average driver as I have autocrossed a few times with some long-time racers, but I do NOT wish to be scared on my commute which will occasionally be had at 75mph in the rain and may also have to traverse snow at much lower speeds from time-to-time.
So, here are my questions:
1. Is there a comprehensive bushing kit that contains all suspension related items? Consensus on rubber vs. urethane?
2. Since 2006(ish) has there been any consensus on the BEST, or best value, strut/shock for a GT-type setup?
3. Is there a higher quality, but stock spring-rate spring set that is thought to be the BEST, or best value? Do factory springs wear?
4. How does selection of wheel/tire combo impact selection of spring/struts/shocks? (my vehicle currently has 225/45ZR17's wrapped around 17" GTI wheels)...I have thought about seeking a lighter solution and/or a 15" steel wheel...
Any help or links to 'newer' data would be much appreciated!
I'm in a very similar situation here (I have auto crossed as well and have spent time in Rotax so I'm ok behind the wheel) and I'd really love at least slightly specific answers to those questions as they're very good. "It depends" or pedantic esoterica don't really do me any good.

To provide a non-answer answer to #2, after reading/skimming this thread and the related linked throughout threads I believe the answer is to keep the stock springs and get some Koni Reds. Or, get a Shine setup. I had that on a 2001 Wolfsburg and loved it but I can't conclusively say the car handled better. It felt better but I did not perform back to back testing to confirm. Sure, it'd be nice if the car sat a bit lower but I'm not one for affectations. If it doesn't help the performance then I don't need it. Anyway, before I bolt anything on it'd be nice to know the answer to #2 a bit more definitively and have an answer to #1.

Yes, factory springs wear. I just replaced the original springs in my 01 Jetta, they had lost considerable strength (they were in fact broken at the bottom) and the car was sitting lower in the rear. Looked good though. ;)

My additional question would be what was the consensus on the rear sway bar for a GT car set up? Say, paired with stock springs and Koni reds. Shine too aggressive? One of the smaller ones good enough?
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I can answer some of these questions from my experience. I'll avoid "it depends" but they are my opinions. By way of background I've had two MKIV TDIs that I've driven on the street, road courses, and autocross. I've had multiple suspension setups on each. So although my experience isn't exhaustive, it's pretty extensive.

1. A number of vendors provide suspension refresh kits that include all bushings. And I believe rubber is superior to urethane for longer wear, less maintenance, and, in the case of rear axle bushings, better performance. My approach is to firm up things like the subframe and strut towers, and let the bushings remain on the softer side.
2. This is a subjective question, but I'd say Koni Yellows or FSDs, stock springs, and a rear bar.
3. Replacement springs for VWs are limited in what they do. Almost all lower the car, which isn't good for front geometry. Few, if any, are stiffer than stock. Best bet is to go to coilovers where you have unlimited selection of springs and ride heights. I haven't experienced factory springs wearing, but I have had them break.
4. For street use if you get a ligher wheel/tire combination you can run a softer shock. I've run Reds with a 32 lb. wheel/tire combination in my wagon and it felt great. If your wheel/tire setup weighed 50 lbs (not difficult with factory 17s), Reds would be working a lot harder. 15" steel wheels weigh about 22 lbs. You can get a good 16" alloy that weighs under 15 lbs. That's a big difference. And although I like 15s for their light weight, there aren't many good performance tires available any longer in our 15" size. My favorite setup is 16x7 wheels with 225/50-16s. Wider tire, decent sidewall, light weight, and right diameter.

Finally, Shine is no longer producing springs, and I don't think they're producing bars either.
 

ions

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 13, 2002
Location
Burlington,ON, Canada
Ahhh that explains why I couldn't find Shine stuff. Thanks for the update IndigoBlueWagon.

Given that Shine is not producing a rear bar anymore do you have a recommendation?
 
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