NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

dweisel · Jul 3, 2012

sgoldste01 said:
Two stupid questions:

My car had a fuel leak (not related to the resonance thing), and ended up spewing 3-4 gallons of fuel all over the engine compartment, along the bottom-side of the car, and up onto the rear hatch (the fuel flowed like this because I was driving at highway speeds). How much danger was I in? I thought diesel fuel mainly combusted under pressure, thereby reducing the risk.

Why are original owners treated differently from used car owners? A pattern failure is a pattern failure, regardless of who owns the car.

The danger in a fuel line leaking is that the spray mist may be ignited by an ignition sourse.A cracked fuel line under pressure will put out a fine mist of fuel that will burn like a flame thrower. Usually something sopping wet with diesel fuel is somewhat harder to get burning. So, even though your car was soaking wet with diesel fuel the fire hazard was low to moderate.

As far as the original owner compared to a used car owner getting out of warranty repairs done under warranty. The new car is sold by a VW dealer and therefore is backed by VW,somethimes even when out of warranty. A used car is sold in several different ways. Private individual,used car lot or at a VW Dealership. VW is not going to cover a used car sold by and independent used car dealership or a private individual if its out of warranty. You may have a better chance with a used car sold at a VW dealership.

sgoldste01 · Jul 3, 2012

OK. I was mainly asking the used car owner question out of curiosity for the guy who bought my TDI from me in a private sale. Even though my bill of sale said "This car is sold without warranty", he technically did have 6k miles of warranty left on the 36k warranty.

ssamalin · Jul 3, 2012

Anyone besides dweisel think the 2012 Passat has fixed the HPFP defect? Anybody heard from Harvieux lately?

sgoldste01 · Jul 3, 2012

ssamalin said:
Anyone besides dweisel think the 2012 Passat has fixed the HPFP defect? Anybody heard from Harvieux lately?

So far, that appears to be the case.

ssamalin · Jul 3, 2012

It's been on the road about 9 months? It's sold well so there's thousands out there. The 2012 is the first year of the Passat CR TDI? By the time the 2013s or 14s are out the defect may be known to be confined to the earlys of non-Passat TDI. Wow. What about it Harvieux?

Second Turbo · Jul 3, 2012

Economics vs. Politics

Plus 3 Golfer: > ...a simple solution is to replace say 150k+ or so pumps. But if I were VW, I'd fight NHTSA rather than spend say $20-40 million or so replacing all pumps and also simply replace pumps for the original owners when the pumps fail even past warranty (which they seem to be doing) at considerably less cost.

The problem is that what NHTSA presumably cares about is the initial failure itself (and its immediate consequences), and not whether the owner is covered for the repair.

As I understand it, replacing just the pump costs about 25% of replacing the whole fuel chain. If VW expects fewer than 25% of the at-risk CRs to fail before they are retired, then fix-on-failure is indeed cheaper (and cheaper yet if they can blow off all except original owners).

So NHTSA would put to VW: how does a notional fix-on-fail mitigate the risk of accidents at the time of failure?

Ans: it doesn't.

So if NHTSA acts, I wouldn't expect an extended warranty to be satisfactory. I'd expect them to propose 100% replacement, but consider alternatives like free periodic inspections (generously assuming there's any way to assess imminent failure risk).

sgoldste01 · Jul 3, 2012

I predict that the NHTSA will decide that a TDI HPFP failure that occurs while driving is no more dangerous than when any car on the road runs out of gas/fuel while driving, or stalls for any other reason, and therefore will not force VW to do a recall.

I further predict that if this happens, VW will squirm its way out of all out-of-warranty fuel system replacements (regardless of whether they happen to the original owner or not).

WutGas? · Jul 3, 2012

www.nasioc.com/

sgoldste01 · Jul 3, 2012

T.J.K. said:
www.nasioc.com/

Already a member there. But thanks for the tip!

Tuxedo · Jul 9, 2012

ssamalin said:
It's been on the road about 9 months? It's sold well so there's thousands out there. The 2012 is the first year of the Passat CR TDI? By the time the 2013s or 14s are out the defect may be known to be confined to the earlys of non-Passat TDI. Wow. What about it Harvieux?

Pardon my ignorance, but isn't the TDI in the 2012 Passat the same TDI engine that is in the 2012 Jetta, Golf, and SportWagen?

GoFaster · Jul 9, 2012

^ No, it is not the same. It's similar, but differs in several important details. Notably, NOx control is via SCR (requiring AdBlue solution) rather than the Golf/Jetta lean NOx storage catalyst (which requires periodic active regeneration). Intercooling is via air-to-coolant rather than air-to-air (eliminating the Golf/Jetta troubles with intercooler freezing in cold weather). And the big one ... the Golf/Jetta engine uses piezo injectors with 1800 bar max pressure, whereas the Passat engine uses solenoid injectors with 1600 bar max pressure ... easing the load on the HPFP. There are some detail differences with how fuel gets from the tank to the HPFP, too.

kydsid · Jul 9, 2012

Tuxedo said:
Pardon my ignorance, but isn't the TDI in the 2012 Passat the same TDI engine that is in the 2012 Jetta, Golf, and SportWagen?

From the same family just not the same exact engine. The Passat is a CKRA engine.

http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q/b7/2013-vw-passat-tdi-review-faq.htm

Tuxedo · Jul 9, 2012

GoFaster said:
^ No, it is not the same. It's similar, but differs in several important details. Notably, NOx control is via SCR (requiring AdBlue solution) rather than the Golf/Jetta lean NOx storage catalyst (which requires periodic active regeneration). Intercooling is via air-to-coolant rather than air-to-air (eliminating the Golf/Jetta troubles with intercooler freezing in cold weather). And the big one ... the Golf/Jetta engine uses piezo injectors with 1800 bar max pressure, whereas the Passat engine uses solenoid injectors with 1600 bar max pressure ... easing the load on the HPFP. There are some detail differences with how fuel gets from the tank to the HPFP, too.

Thanks for that education. So, are the 2012 Jetta, Golf, and SportWagen still having the HPFP failures? I was thinking of moving to one of those from my 2005.5 Jetta PD engine. These problems make me think I'm better off with my little PD engine.

dreamerak · Jul 9, 2012

Tuxedo said:
Thanks for that education. So, are the 2012 Jetta, Golf, and SportWagen still having the HPFP failures? I was thinking of moving to one of those from my 2005.5 Jetta PD engine. These problems make me think I'm better off with my little PD engine.

I've had 2012 Golf for nearly a year now, not one problem, everything has functioned properly from day one. Very happy with the car.

atc98002 · Jul 9, 2012

Tuxedo said:
Thanks for that education. So, are the 2012 Jetta, Golf, and SportWagen still having the HPFP failures? I was thinking of moving to one of those from my 2005.5 Jetta PD engine. These problems make me think I'm better off with my little PD engine.

My daughter has an 09 Jetta, and she even misfueled it with gas last month. Flush and new filter and it's fine. Amazingly. We've seen some evidence of higher quality D2 in our state, but who really knows for sure.

waspie · Jul 10, 2012

Tuxedo said:
Thanks for that education. So, are the 2012 Jetta, Golf, and SportWagen still having the HPFP failures? I was thinking of moving to one of those from my 2005.5 Jetta PD engine. These problems make me think I'm better off with my little PD engine.

To the best of my knowledge, the golf/jetta still uses the failure-prone design. There have been failures reported in the golf/jetta 2012 year IIRC. Also, 1 passat failure has been reported but IIRC it was a certain misfuel and not a manuf. defect. Better off with your PD IMO or if you want a new car a Passat.

dweisel · Jul 10, 2012

waspie said:
To the best of my knowledge, the golf/jetta still uses the failure-prone design. There have been failures reported in the golf/jetta 2012 year IIRC. Also, 1 passat failure has been reported but IIRC it was a certain misfuel and not a manuf. defect. Better off with your PD IMO or if you want a new car a Passat.

That pretty much sums it up other than we don't know if there has been a 4th revision to the hpfp used in the later production Jetta/Golf and the 2013 Beetle.

ssamalin · Jul 10, 2012

Wow so if there are no Passat HPFP failures by 2014s, and if there's AWD in a CKRA crossover or sedan, I'll have the option of trading in my Jetta, which by then will be on it's second cam job.

need4speed · Jul 10, 2012

sgoldste01 said:
OK. I was mainly asking the used car owner question out of curiosity for the guy who bought my TDI from me in a private sale. Even though my bill of sale said "This car is sold without warranty", he technically did have 6k miles of warranty left on the 36k warranty.

Yeah - the remaining miles on my extended warranty when I bought my 03 with 18k miles (from the owner, out-of-state): the local VW dealers declined to honor it. When I pressed them, they eventually relented, but they had so many technicalities and loopholes, (and they continually failed to actually fix my problem; which, at the time, was the faulty glow-plug harness - and they also botched the replacement of the recalled brake-switch); I was sick of being without a car, and getting rides to the dealer, and especially, being charged for "diagnostic fees" when they couldn't confirm that it was a covered in-warranty repair. I just decided to learn to fix everything myself, or deal with issues myself, and stay away from them, and tell everyone what criminals I thought the dealer was.

Did it change their behavior?
No. (they're under new management now, and no longer sell VW's).

TDIMeister · Jul 13, 2012

Does anyone think this was actually an HPFP failure made by VWoA to look like an oil-starvation-and-engine-seizing problem? The description of the moments before the engine died sure sounds like it could be... Maybe someone can do some sleuthing and follow-up on the car.

kjclow · Jul 13, 2012

Seems kind of strange that a group of people testing and writing about cars, would have never checked the oil. I agree that there are some unanswered questions.

Charrigan · Jul 13, 2012

TDIMeister said:
Does anyone think this was actually an HPFP failure made by VWoA to look like an oil-starvation-and-engine-seizing problem? The description of the moments before the engine died sure sounds like it could be... Maybe someone can do some sleuthing and follow-up on the car.

I know a porsche tech at the dealer the vehicle was taken to. It looks like it happened over a year ago but Ill pick his brain for more info.

Ski in NC · Jul 13, 2012

kjclow said:
Seems kind of strange that a group of people testing and writing about cars, would have never checked the oil. I agree that there are some unanswered questions.

No kidding. And not noticing oil puked on the pavement? Oil change at Jiffy Lube?? And these are gearheads? Phht.

Gilty_one · Jul 13, 2012

TDIMeister said:
Does anyone think this was actually an HPFP failure made by VWoA to look like an oil-starvation-and-engine-seizing problem? The description of the moments before the engine died sure sounds like it could be... Maybe someone can do some sleuthing and follow-up on the car.

Somehow I can see that the local lube shop didn't use the proper VW507.00 oil plus all the other issues they had changing the oil.
I severely doubt that the CR HPFP is really at fault here.
see article quote:
Pressed for time before a long trip, when we took the car in for its most recent oil change, we neglected to use Volkswagen's lovely free scheduled maintenance feature and instead took the car to a local lube shop, where the technicians struggled with performing the oil change on the diesel Jetta. They had a tough time removing the skid plate in order to get to the oil pan, and apparently neglected to properly re-install the plug on the pan. Still, in the two and a half months after the oil change, not a single Autoblog staff member noticed oil pooling in driveways or parking lots or observed any other telltale problems. In short, we remain full of questions about the reasons for the Cup Street's demise, as it continued to perform brilliantly up until the very end.
We never saw Heidi again.
According to the post-mortem we received from VW authorities, our 2010 Cup Street Edition was eventually fitted with a new engine and a new turbocharger. After two months sitting at the dealership, it was returned to Volkswagen's headquarters. A few weeks later, I was given back the CD that I had left in the changer.
Our replacement 2011 Jetta TDI will only be serviced at Volkswagen dealers. And just to play it safe, we won't name this one, either.

Charrigan · Jul 13, 2012

Ski in NC said:
No kidding. And not noticing oil puked on the pavement? Oil change at Jiffy Lube?? And these are gearheads? Phht.

The 2 major quick oil service places in Ann Arbor are Uncle Eds, and Victory lane.

I worked next to Uncle Eds for about 4 years off and on. I have witnessed 4 vehicles leaving their lot spewing oil out of the oil pan driving down the street. All seized within a mile of leaving. They pay those kids minimum wage. I highly doubt they really care about doing a flawless job at changing oil.

Niner · Jul 13, 2012

Tuxedo said:
Pardon my ignorance, but isn't the TDI in the 2012 Passat the same TDI engine that is in the 2012 Jetta, Golf, and SportWagen?

No, it is a CKRA, and the car weighs enough that VW runs bluetech Diesel Exhaust Fluid to clean up the NoX.

TDIMeister · Jul 13, 2012

Gilty_one said:
Somehow I can see that the local lube shop didn't use the proper VW507.00 oil plus all the other issues they had changing the oil.
I severely doubt that the CR HPFP is really at fault here.
see article quote:
Pressed for time before a long trip, when we took the car in for its most recent oil change, we neglected to use Volkswagen's lovely free scheduled maintenance feature and instead took the car to a local lube shop, where the technicians struggled with performing the oil change on the diesel Jetta. They had a tough time removing the skid plate in order to get to the oil pan, and apparently neglected to properly re-install the plug on the pan. Still, in the two and a half months after the oil change, not a single Autoblog staff member noticed oil pooling in driveways or parking lots or observed any other telltale problems. In short, we remain full of questions about the reasons for the Cup Street's demise, as it continued to perform brilliantly up until the very end.
We never saw Heidi again.
According to the post-mortem we received from VW authorities, our 2010 Cup Street Edition was eventually fitted with a new engine and a new turbocharger. After two months sitting at the dealership, it was returned to Volkswagen's headquarters. A few weeks later, I was given back the CD that I had left in the changer.
Our replacement 2011 Jetta TDI will only be serviced at Volkswagen dealers. And just to play it safe, we won't name this one, either.

Amazingly good oil or something if the engine lasted two-and-a-half months after the incident in the hands of auto journalists with no engine oil... Slick 50googolplex?

Gilty_one · Jul 13, 2012

I'm inclined to think the non-VW spec oil burned itself away along with the diesel fuel to the point that it was gone - then poof went the engine.

It's a theory -and I don't have an engine to sacrifice to prove it.

AlcoC420 · Jul 14, 2012

sgoldste01 said:
I predict that the NHTSA will decide that a TDI HPFP failure that occurs while driving is no more dangerous than when any car on the road runs out of gas/fuel while driving, or stalls for any other reason, and therefore will not force VW to do a recall. ...

I drive an '06 Nissan and for a number of years Nissan installed faulty fuel sending units which failed to indicate proper fuel level which contributed to stalling and eventually to a formal recall. Yep, who knows how the VW situation will develop, but at least one precident has been set. It's too bad that it's taking NHTSA a lifetime to set out a ruling on this.

Niner · Jul 14, 2012

GoFaster said:
^ No, it is not the same. It's similar, but differs in several important details. Notably, NOx control is via SCR (requiring AdBlue solution) rather than the Golf/Jetta lean NOx storage catalyst (which requires periodic active regeneration). Intercooling is via air-to-coolant rather than air-to-air (eliminating the Golf/Jetta troubles with intercooler freezing in cold weather). And the big one ... the Golf/Jetta engine uses piezo injectors with 1800 bar max pressure, whereas the Passat engine uses solenoid injectors with 1600 bar max pressure ... easing the load on the HPFP. There are some detail differences with how fuel gets from the tank to the HPFP, too.

I've read this in Bosch literature when they were touting the development of Common Rail diesel injection systems and how their progress was coming along, but I was wondering if you have a direct source to quote on this, something factual, or factory documentations or fuel pressure logs on VCDS that can confirm this, the operating pressures of the 2012 passat HPFP?

The following is conjecture and opinion only, until time and experience proves otherwise on the 2012 passat's HPFP, but it's my belief, currently, that the 1600 bar pressure limit, if true, on the 2012 passat CKRA motor, may very well be at a pressure limit that is actually under the design limitations of the materials currently used and available as used in manufacture of the Bosch CP4-1 series of pump, when run with solenoid injectors. I may change my opinion in 2 or 3 years if failures in 2012 passat CKRA motors for HPFP's start to materialize, to that Bosch still hasn't fixed the problem... but time will tell, so far, I have my eyes wide open going into this, knowing full well that I am a beta tester at this stage of the product life cycle.

NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

Top Post Dawg

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Active member

Moderator at Large

Veteran Member

Active member

Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Top Post Dawg

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast, Moderator at Large

Top Post Dawg

Veteran Member

Top Post Dawg

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

duplicate account, banned

Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast, Moderator at Large

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

duplicate account, banned