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General Automotive General automotive discussion. This is intended to be a discussion about other not VW and Diesel cars you may have or interested in.

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Old November 30th, 2017, 06:38   #3646
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Re this: "One of the things Tesla has done right has been recognizing that the cars and the charging infrastructure go hand in hand. The other manufacturers have been seemingly doing their best to make the charging infrastructure someone else's problem ... and until this changes, Tesla has an ace in the hole. If the other manufacturers gang up and get serious about installing SAE Combo quick-charging stations *everywhere* ... including across the street from every single Tesla Supercharger! ... and come up with good products, Tesla probably won't be able to keep up. The Model S is 6 model years old with no sign of a next generation, or even a makeover, on the horizon."

Porsche, Ford and others are cooperating on a quick charging standard and network. I don't have the link. TSLA is not among the participants. When the other marques start selling many EV models, I wonder it TSLA will try to go proprietary or have to license charging network access? Lots of unknowns. Sorry I don't have links to this.
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Old November 30th, 2017, 07:08   #3647
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Thanks wxman- that last figure puts the carbon emissions from vehicle manufacture in good perspective. I agree that it would be nice to know what vehicles those default values correlate with. I assume model S production has quite a bit more carbon emitted than a Leaf. Likewise a Suburban quite a bit more than a Spark.

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Old November 30th, 2017, 07:19   #3648
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At that battery weight, and knowing what the UCS reports use for similar assumptions, the LEAF is almost certainly the model midsize EV.
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Old November 30th, 2017, 08:03   #3649
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Originally Posted by wxman View Post

Manufacturing the entire vehicle results in 6,668,000 grams GHG for the default EV, and 6,131,000 grams GHG for the default ICEV.
^^This is an important point.

An EV will, over it's lifecycle, reduce the total amount of CO2 as compared with it's gasoline counterpart. While it's also true that if EV's become widely adopted, and the world's fleet of cars would thus emit less overall quantities of CO2, the biggest point that's being missed is that net CO2 keeps rising because we're putting more cars on the road.

Mother nature doesn't care if your individual car pollutes less than the next one, it's the rising number of cars being built every year that's pissing her off. With inflated residuals, and crazy low payments; EV's are lease machines because the are artificially affordable. Some think that if they put a brand new, two ton hunk of steel, glass, petrochemicals, and lithium ion battery on the road every three years - they are making a noble contribution to reducing global CO2. I think that's a dubious claim. It's always been about the number of cars on the road that matters. Take a look at this picture:



There are hundreds of thousands of VW's parked across the USA awaiting their fate. Regardless of dieselgate, and which side of the debate you're on - the result was that EVEN MORE cars were required to be built to replace them, releasing over 6,000 metric tons of GHG's per unit. Environmentalists cheer this as a win, but was it?

Once upon a time, cars were considered "durable goods". I miss those days.
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Old November 30th, 2017, 08:03   #3650
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Originally Posted by RabbitGTI View Post
Porsche, Ford and others are cooperating on a quick charging standard and network. I don't have the link. TSLA is not among the participants. When the other marques start selling many EV models, I wonder it TSLA will try to go proprietary or have to license charging network access? Lots of unknowns. Sorry I don't have links to this.
They are indeed. The problem is making it happen. Tesla IS making it happen. They're not participating in the other quick charging standard because they already have their own and they ARE making it happen (they have already made a lot of it happen).

I'm not buying an EV until every OnRoute (motorway service center) in Ontario has compatible Level 3 quick-charging equipment installed and operational, because that's how I can get to Windsor and back, and that's how I could get to Montreal and back. Crickets ... Plenty of talk but no action.

I could do it in a Tesla, they already have supercharger stations in useable locations, but their current vehicles are beyond my budget and the one that I could fit in my budget is beyond reasonable time horizon ...
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Old November 30th, 2017, 08:11   #3651
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How did they force Tucker or Studebaker out of business? I know it's a different era but competition is still competition. Ok, maybe Tucker was more of a flake than businessman, but Studebaker had been in business for over 100 years.
Tucker was the Elio of his day and was never a serious factor in the market. Studebaker was, but they went out of business because the mainstream competitors had better products and they didn't have the resources to keep up. Hudson and Nash joined and formed American Motors, still not enough, they got bought out by Chrysler because the mainstream competitors had better products and they didn't have the resources to keep up (and you could almost say the same about Chrysler in turn being bought out by Fiat. I have two FiatChrysler products in the driveway but they're mostly Fiat and only a bit of Chrysler ... A Jeep Cherokee is mostly a Fiat ...)

The same thing could very well happen to Tesla and if it does, their stock price will crash, and only THEN will it be financially possible or reasonable for someone to buy them up. Right now it would be financial suicide.

In the other post there was discussion about the "mainstream" quick-charging network. If the mainstream competitors want to beat Tesla then they need to stop talking and MAKE THIS HAPPEN. There needs to be a SAE Combo (or whatever they come up with) quick-charging station pretty much across the street from every Tesla supercharger and then some. Tesla has a BIG head start (Years!) in this particular aspect of EV ownership ...
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Old November 30th, 2017, 08:11   #3652
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Yep, everything you said there is why I don't like them.
No need for heated seats, and if I did, I would certainly not want them on all the time.
I HATE automatic headlights. That is the reason why so many idiots drive around in the rain and fog with no lights on. They depend on an imperfect technology... so they are hard to see. And it is easy to tell, as these are almost always the fancier cars that you know would have that crap. I can flip a switch, thanks.
No need for a bzillion song/itunes/carplay/blah blah.
No real need for navigation for 99% of everywhere I ever go.
No need for a phone, I am driving, not talking.
Hate power seats, always have. I know where I need my seat, and it can stay there. I do not need to have it move back and forth every time I get in and out of the car.
Do not like the video game gear selector (and this goes for anything that has them). I will concede that an EV + a manual gearbox is sort of a fat chick in a bikini thing, but I still would not like to have to watch some little indicator to tell me what gear I am in.
Push button start is fine, but it is a nuisance when the car needs service for a variety of reasons, dead battery, key carried off in the customer's pocket (this happens almost daily here), or a lost key (ask me about the Sienna we had here when I see you in January ).
You have to remember though, Tesla or not, I am not a fan of super fancy gadget laden cars, period. Maybe I have just had the wind knocked out of me from dealing with so much of that gingerbread stuff for so long that I just find it tiresome.
Sometimes a key, 3 pedals, a steering wheel, and a gearshifter with a dial speedometer in front is all I want. I actual enjoy DRIVING.

Now the idea of a Tesla driveline in a classic car would be pretty cool. I'd love an old splitty Bus like that. And there are folks that do stuff like that
.
Someone has. Here is a link to story.
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Old November 30th, 2017, 08:21   #3653
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I'd love these guys to do up a '65 bug for me:

http://www.zelectricmotors.com/
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Old November 30th, 2017, 08:28   #3654
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oilhammer, amen to the joy of driving and simplicity. After reading all this stuff, it seems to me that if cradle to grave environmental impact is considered, an ICE/hybrid is the best solution for many people. That assumes the car has a battery just big enough for the bulk of short hop daily stuff. I think we'll end up with full electrics, ICE/hybrids and who knows what other power trains. Along these lines, I think VW just recently added this to their website http://www.vw.com/electric-concepts. 369 HP bus sounds cool
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Old November 30th, 2017, 08:38   #3655
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Originally Posted by Oilerlord View Post
^^This is an important point.

An EV will, over it's lifecycle, reduce the total amount of CO2 as compared with it's gasoline counterpart. While it's also true that if EV's become widely adopted, and the world's fleet of cars would thus emit less overall quantities of CO2, the biggest point that's being missed is that net CO2 keeps rising because we're putting more cars on the road.

Mother nature doesn't care if your individual car pollutes less than the next one, it's the rising number of cars being built every year that's pissing her off. With inflated residuals, and crazy low payments; EV's are lease machines because the are artificially affordable. Some think that if they put a brand new, two ton hunk of steel, glass, petrochemicals, and lithium ion battery on the road every three years - they are making a noble contribution to reducing global CO2. I think that's a dubious claim. It's always been about the number of cars on the road that matters. Take a look at this picture:



There are hundreds of thousands of VW's parked across the USA awaiting their fate. Regardless of dieselgate, and which side of the debate you're on - the result was that EVEN MORE cars were required to be built to replace them, releasing over 6,000 metric tons of GHG's per unit. Environmentalists cheer this as a win, but was it?

Once upon a time, cars were considered "durable goods". I miss those days.
A couple of points.

1.) End of lease EVs get sold on the used market, likely replacing older ICE vehicles. Many of those vehicles also get sold on used markets or get recycled if they’ve reached the ends of their lives. Off lease EVs aren’t sitting in a parking lot or getting scrapped. If they were, you would have a good point. You and I are both second owners of EVs and the manufacturing emissions continue to get amortized beyond the initial 3-year lease period.

2.) That picture shows vehicles that were involved in the diesel scandal. The additional manufacturing emissions from replacing these short-lived vehicles is on VW. Many owners bought the vehicles thinking they were cleaner and more efficient... come to find out one of those things was not the case. Trying to apply the responsibility for these additional manufacturing emissions to the consumer is inappropriate. Regardless, Dieselgate is off topic for this thread, so let’s just leave that alone.
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Old November 30th, 2017, 08:40   #3656
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oilerlord View Post
An EV will, over it's lifecycle, reduce the total amount of CO2 as compared with it's gasoline counterpart. While it's also true that if EV's become widely adopted, and the world's fleet of cars would thus emit less overall quantities of CO2, the biggest point that's being missed is that net CO2 keeps rising because we're putting more cars on the road.

Mother nature doesn't care if your individual car pollutes less than the next one, it's the rising number of cars being built every year that's pissing her off. With inflated residuals, and crazy low payments; EV's are lease machines because the are artificially affordable. Some think that if they put a brand new, two ton hunk of steel, glass, petrochemicals, and lithium ion battery on the road every three years - they are making a noble contribution to reducing global CO2. I think that's a dubious claim. It's always been about the number of cars on the road that matters.

There are hundreds of thousands of VW's parked across the USA awaiting their fate. Regardless of dieselgate, and which side of the debate you're on - the result was that EVEN MORE cars were required to be built to replace them, releasing over 6,000 metric tons of GHG's per unit. Environmentalists cheer this as a win, but was it?

Once upon a time, cars were considered "durable goods". I miss those days.

Excellent post again. Also, the driving force behind all these new cars is all these new humans. All of it ties right back into the global population that has by some estimates already blown past a reasonable expectation of tolerable limits. Harmony is regional.

I always felt Dieselgate, and the drive to remove these "gross polluters" from the road was not in the best interest of clean air. Because the vast majority of the cars that get removed will just be replaced with another car.
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Old November 30th, 2017, 10:32   #3657
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This article has some good commentary on the ny teknik article from above. There seems to be a discrepancy in the average miles the Swedes rack up in the two pieces *edit: the actual avg yearly mileage in Sweden is 12,240 km. The figure must have got mangled in translation*- but some good points are made:
https://www.greentechmedia.com/artic...ter#gs.d_Ylzbs
That sick feeling when your virtue suddenly evaporates.

i.e. they dropped a zero and it's km not miles.

So...are you going to update your comment on your evil, CO2-generating monster of a battery pack?

Just imagine how much CO2 was generated to build Tesla's South Australia mega-battery. Hoo boy.
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Old November 30th, 2017, 10:56   #3658
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A couple of points.

1.) End of lease EVs get sold on the used market, likely replacing older ICE vehicles. Many of those vehicles also get sold on used markets or get recycled if they’ve reached the ends of their lives. Off lease EVs aren’t sitting in a parking lot or getting scrapped. If they were, you would have a good point. You and I are both second owners of EVs and the manufacturing emissions continue to get amortized beyond the initial 3-year lease period.

2.) That picture shows vehicles that were involved in the diesel scandal. The additional manufacturing emissions from replacing these short-lived vehicles is on VW. Many owners bought the vehicles thinking they were cleaner and more efficient... come to find out one of those things was not the case. Trying to apply the responsibility for these additional manufacturing emissions to the consumer is inappropriate. Regardless, Dieselgate is off topic for this thread, so let’s just leave that alone.
I addressed these points.

1.) The fact that cars get handed down to others isn't relevant to, or change the cumulative effect that manufacturing GHG emissions has. More cars being built = more manufacturing GHG emissions. It's a pretty simple point, but one that people can't seem to wrap their head around. It's just more fun to lease a new EV or ICEV, and not think about the consequences.

2.) I'm not at all applying blame to consumers; only using the example in terms of manufacturing emissions as "the other" environmental tragedy that people don't seem to care about and/or choose to ignore.

No, we don't live in Cuba with the requirement to drive cars from the 50's and I'm not trying to convince anyone that a 1989 Geo Metro is all we "need". What we can do however is slow down the production of new cars (and their associated manufacturing emissions) by driving the ones we have for a lot longer than we do.
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Old November 30th, 2017, 12:07   #3659
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That sick feeling when your virtue suddenly evaporates.

i.e. they dropped a zero and it's km not miles.

So...are you going to update your comment on your evil, CO2-generating monster of a battery pack?

Just imagine how much CO2 was generated to build Tesla's South Australia mega-battery. Hoo boy.
I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. The article you linked had an error. I said as much when I discovered the error. Big deal.
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Old November 30th, 2017, 12:37   #3660
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I addressed these points.

No, we don't live in Cuba with the requirement to drive cars from the 50's and I'm not trying to convince anyone that a 1989 Geo Metro is all we "need". What we can do however is slow down the production of new cars (and their associated manufacturing emissions) by driving the ones we have for a lot longer than we do.
I agree. The same should also be said about other areas of our lives like buying disposable products from lands far away. Civilized nations are getting far too deep into the disposable lifestyle. That includes technology, toys, clothes, cars, packaging, and just about every other aspect of our lives. I think a part of that is because most people alive today haven't lived through a great depression. Our grandparents did and told stories of cherishing what they had and doing things that seem crazy today like washing and reusing aluminum foil and plastic bags.

There is a lot of low hanging fruit out there, but it's difficult to convince people to give up a little bit of convenience for the greater good, especially if it costs a little bit more money at the same time.
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