Problem with Wheel Bearing Play Or???

Beowulf

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2000
Location
Lovettsville, VA, USA
TDI
A3 Jetta, 1998, Green
According to my maintenance spreadsheet it was time to check my rear brake shoes. So, I pulled off the wheel and the hub. Brake shoes are fine.

I figure since I have everything apart I might as well add some grease to keep the wheel bearings well lubed. So, I pack some bearing grease into the wheel bearing race and add grease to the dust cap. I put everything back onto the stub axle and tighten the hex nut down on the the thrust washer as indicated in the Bentley manual (wheel bearing play, adjusting).

At this point wheel rotation is good. I put the dust cap back on and now when I rotate the tire there is a point of friction in the rotation where the hub stops spinning. I figure I added too much grease and so remove some. This helps, but it doesn't remove the problem completely. It takes a fair amount of effort to spin the hub past this point by hand. The only other thing I can think of is that I've tightened the hex nut too tightly.

I'd really appreciate any ideas on what could be causing this problem. I'd like to get it sorted out tomorrow morning before work, if possible, so any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
 

car54

theGAME
Joined
Dec 5, 2000
Location
Woodbridge VA
TDI
2002 Jetta
You moron! Dont you know not to touch it? You just had to do this and mess it all up!!! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I sent you an email.. call me in the morning if you need any suggestions, or just wanna cry and make me listen to it.
/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 

bowlerman

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Jul 31, 2001
Location
medford, NJ
TDI
2001 jetta tdi black
make sure no dirt or anything got in there. check for the cotter pin that its not in the way. also check bearings are they ok?
 

Beowulf

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2000
Location
Lovettsville, VA, USA
TDI
A3 Jetta, 1998, Green
Well, I took everything off again. Wiped off the wheel bearings to check for dirt, put everything back on and
was careful not to tighten the hex nut too tight and now
the wheel rotates freely as it should.

The only issue on the test drive was a periodic hum that seemed to be coming from the right front wheel (my problem with the wheel bearing play was on the right rear wheel). I think that is due to the fact, that I just rotated that wheel to the front last night and it is bent. The hum doesn't increase or diminish depending on wheel load like a wheel bearing hum does.

Thanks to everyone for the advice...especially car54. It's the loving gentle touch of his bedside manner that makes it so much fun to be helped by him. /images/graemlins/grin.gif
 

BKmetz

Administrator, Member #10
Staff member
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Sep 25, 1997
Location
Illinois
TDI
2015 Passat, titanium beige, 6MT
[ QUOTE ]
Beowulf said:Thanks to everyone for the advice...especially car54. It's the loving gentle touch of his bedside manner that makes it so much fun to be helped by him. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

God I love good sarcasm! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Brian, 97 Passat TDI
 

SPStdi

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 30, 2002
Location
Orlando, FL
TDI
White 1998 Jetta
Beowulf,

Don't rule out the hum you are hearing, I did and ended up seizing a rear wheel bearing at 65 MPH (NOT FUN) I could make the hum change or go away for a while by rotating the tires so that is what I thought it was till the wild ride one evening in rush hour traffic. For my failure to consider the rear wheel bearings I was rewarded by being stranded 150 miles from home, having the car towed to a VW dealer and being relieved of $500.00 to replace both sets of wheel bearings and one spindle.
Now of course the hum is completely gone.
Just a little food for thought.
 

pinehead

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May 19, 2003
Location
Treasure Coast, FL
TDI
Passat
$500.00!! Whew... /images/graemlins/eek.gif I think I would go ahead and opt for a $20.00 wheel bearing kit. Better yet $40.00 and go ahead and do both sides.

AJ
96 Passat TDI
 

SPStdi

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 30, 2002
Location
Orlando, FL
TDI
White 1998 Jetta
I agree, but when you are 150 miles from home and stranded with no tools your choices diminish. If I had taken the time to consider wheel bearings I would have done the job myself and not had to replace the spindle which was destroyed during the seizure. /images/graemlins/frown.gif
 

Beowulf

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2000
Location
Lovettsville, VA, USA
TDI
A3 Jetta, 1998, Green
The thought has crossed my mind, but what are the odds that the wheel bearing would have gone bad because I tightened the hex nut too tight against the thrust washer?

The vibration can be felt in the steering wheel and in the front floor boards. It also comes on strongest at about 20 mph and then diminishes. It acts the same as the time I had a bent rim on my Buick, but not at all like when either a rear wheel bearing or a front wheel bearing went out on this Jetta. The thing that makes me go with my hunch on the bent wheel is that the last time I took the car in to Merchant's to get the wheels rotated they refused to do it because of the bent rim and said that rotating this wheel to the front would cause the symptoms I'm now seeing. I went ahead and finally rotated the tires on my own because the front tires were starting to wear more quickly after about 8500 miles.

I'm taking this seriously, though. I've heard the horror stories (maybe yours, in fact) of the perils of seized wheel bearings. I'm in the process of tracking down new rims. I'm going to get new rims all around within the week and if that doesn't take care of the problem, rest assured I'm going to revisit the wheel bearing. I do appreciate your words of caution. I take them seriously.

Anybody want to jump in with some comments on my emanufactured wheel thread.
 

Drivbiwire

Zehntes Jahr der Veteran
Joined
Oct 13, 1998
Location
Boise, Idaho
TDI
2013 Passat TDI, Newmar Ventana 8.3L ISC 3945, 2016 E250 BT, 2000 Jetta TDI
[ QUOTE ]
Beowulf said:
The only issue on the test drive was a periodic hum that seemed to be coming from the right front wheel (my problem with the wheel bearing play was on the right rear wheel). I think that is due to the fact, that I just rotated that wheel to the front last night and it is bent. The hum doesn't increase or diminish depending on wheel load like a wheel bearing hum does.


[/ QUOTE ]

When does the Hum occur because this is not making sense:

-When did the hum start, before you reset the bearing pre-load on the rear bearing or after?
-Does it occur in a turn
-If so does it get louder when turning Left or right?
-Does the hum increase proportional to speed regardless of direction you turn?
-How many miles on this car?
-Is there any abnormal wear on the tires?
-Is there "ANY" detectable play in the rear wheels with the tire off the ground?

Answer all of the above completely...

DB
 

Drivbiwire

Zehntes Jahr der Veteran
Joined
Oct 13, 1998
Location
Boise, Idaho
TDI
2013 Passat TDI, Newmar Ventana 8.3L ISC 3945, 2016 E250 BT, 2000 Jetta TDI
FYI, when I retorque my rear wheel bearings I tighten the nut till there is no detectable play in the wheel. I use a pair of channel locks and the spin till it stops trick always seems to work for me and usually coincides with any trace of wheel play going away.

If there is ANY play in the wheel when you grab it around the edges (This means with the car off the ground) and try to wobble it on the shaft, you need to increase the pre-load on the rear bearings. Over time they loosen up and need to have the pre-load increased. If you get to a point where you can't increase the pre-load with a pair of pliars yet there is still play in the bearing....time to replace ASAP!!!

Also whenever I replace rear brakes the bearing are replaced as well. Seals, bearings, caps, pins everything except the washer, most kits for these bearing assemblies have all that is needed. Also this is a good time to paing the brake drum inside and out to keep rust and scaling from building up in and on the outside of the drum. WIth 164,000 miles on my originals drums, pads and bearings, they still look and brake like new except for a little bit of discoloration.

DB
 

Howler

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Sep 9, 2000
Location
Planet Earth
TDI
'10 Touareg TDI
Dang, more to do. Gotta call Harv for more parts today.

I got a quote of $305.00 to replace front bearings, lower ball joints, outer tie rod ends, and all four struts. Is this a reasonable quote? I don't have all the tools I need yet, and am wondering if I should hold out until the Portland GTG.
 

RIP TDI

Top Post Dawg
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Feb 16, 2000
Location
Santa Barbara, CA
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'15 GSW SE 6MT...... '01 Golf GLS 5MT.... '96 Passat Variant....
You should also replace the tie rods (i.e., inner ends). Its not uncommon for these to develop play and much more common than wear in the outer ends. If they don't have play yet, they soon will. Mine were worn out at 83K.
 

RIP TDI

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 16, 2000
Location
Santa Barbara, CA
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'15 GSW SE 6MT...... '01 Golf GLS 5MT.... '96 Passat Variant....
Another tip: if you're planning to have a 4-wheel alignment done in the near future, properly adjust the rear bearing end play before the alignment, but postpone bearing/disc replacement until afterward. That way, if the alignment indicates that you are out of spec. on rear camber or toe, you can install the proper correcting shim behind the stub axle when everything is apart for bearing/disc replacement.
 

Beowulf

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2000
Location
Lovettsville, VA, USA
TDI
A3 Jetta, 1998, Green
[ QUOTE ]
Drivbiwire said:
When does the Hum occur because this is not making sense:


[/ QUOTE ]

There might be some confusion because I tried to save myself some time by doing 2 things at once. My primary goal of this exercise was to rotate the tires. While I had the rear tires off, I wanted to check the condition of the pads on the rear brake shoes because I was told somewhere on the forums a while back that they should be checked/replaced every 50,000 miles. So, I remove the rear drum, checked on the brake pads and then put everything back together. The problem I had at this point which prompted this thread was that when I put the grease cap back on after tightening the hex nut and putting the lock nut and cotter pin back in place, I would get a spot that the drum wouldn't rotate past without considerable effort.
This problem was resolved by backing off the hex nut about half a turn and putting everything back together.

[ QUOTE ]

-When did the hum start, before you reset the bearing pre-load on the rear bearing or after?


[/ QUOTE ]

I assume by "reset the bearing pre-load on the rear bearing" you mean "tighten the hex nut down onto the thrust washer so that the thrust washer just barely moves when pushed against with a screw driver" (as outlined in Bentley). In that case, it showed up after. However, there is a confounding factor in that at the same time as I was doing this I rotated the wheel that was on the right rear to the front rear. This wheel is bent, but I figured I'd try rotating it to the front anyway to see if it would cause as much trouble as the guy at Merchant's said it would to rotate it to the front.

[ QUOTE ]

-Does it occur in a turn


[/ QUOTE ]

Not solely in a turn. It occurs all the time and is noticable for me after about 7 mph. The vibration (it's really a periodic thumping) is loudest / most noticable at 20 MPH.

[ QUOTE ]

-If so does it get louder when turning Left or right?


[/ QUOTE ]

The volume is unaffected by turning.

[ QUOTE ]

-Does the hum increase proportional to speed regardless of direction you turn?


[/ QUOTE ]

The period of the thump increases with speed and it is loudest at 20 MPH.

[ QUOTE ]

-How many miles on this car?


[/ QUOTE ]

155,400 miles

[ QUOTE ]

-Is there any abnormal wear on the tires?


[/ QUOTE ]

Not that I can tell.

[ QUOTE ]

-Is there "ANY" detectable play in the rear wheels with the tire off the ground?


[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't notice any at the time, but I just put 100 miles on it today, so I'll be tightening up the lug nuts tomorrow before going to work. I'll check for lateral (that is perpendicular to the direction of rotation) motion in all 4 wheels at the time of tightening the lug nuts.

[ QUOTE ]

Answer all of the above completely...


[/ QUOTE ]

I'll get back to you on the last question. Thanks for your input.
 

Beowulf

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2000
Location
Lovettsville, VA, USA
TDI
A3 Jetta, 1998, Green
There is NO detectable lateral play in any of the wheels (the test was conducted with the tire jacked up off the ground).

I'm interested in hearing anyone's feedback. Thanks.
 

saabguru

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2001
Location
The Capital of the Great State of Texas
I've had a steadily increasing hum back there, which varied with direction of turn. I replaced the right rears yesterday- they were LOUD, and LOOSE. Checked the lefts, they were also loose. I tightened them, and now THEY'RE getting loud. This car has been a wheel bearing pig, fronts already done at 90K, left rears same, now again at 123K. I have another new set ready to go in tomorrow. The new ones run warmer than the old noisy ones.
I wonder if that military surplus wheel bearing grease I used was the culprit to the early demise of the rear bearings?
Amsoil only from now on. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 

lupin..the..3rd

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2004
Location
USA
TDI
Passat B4 1996
[ QUOTE ]
The thought has crossed my mind, but what are the odds that the wheel bearing would have gone bad because I tightened the hex nut too tight against the thrust washer?


[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty high. I spoke with my indy VW mechanic (who's been working on nothing but VW for over 25 years). He said he gets cars in all the time from other shops, for this same reason. He said that if you tighten that nut on too much, it will cause the bearings to go bad very quickly.

Finger tight only - no tools, just fingers.
 

PaulB

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2000
Location
Oregon, USA
TDI
2013 Passat TDI SE M6
[ QUOTE ]
FYI, when I retorque my rear wheel bearings I tighten the nut till there is no detectable play in the wheel. I use a pair of channel locks and the spin till it stops trick always seems to work for me and usually coincides with any trace of wheel play going away.

If there is ANY play in the wheel when you grab it around the edges (This means with the car off the ground) and try to wobble it on the shaft, you need to increase the pre-load on the rear bearings.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really?? You go that tight?

When I did my rear brakes and bearings, before starting I noticed the rear wheels were fairly sloppy. After finishing the brake/bearing work, I tightened the bearing up until there was no play (but NOT really tight), then backed off until there was barely perceptible play using the wobble test. The wheel rotated freely.

After a couple of weeks I checked again, and it turned out there was then a fair amount of play. I assumed the bearings were just bedding in, so I re-adjusted as above. After checking again later I found it had not changed any more.

I am nervous about taking all play out. I wonder what happens when things heat up in that situation, and the metal expands...

I did not find that the Bentley procedure gave a very consistent amount of play, so I dispensed with it.

Oh, I should say there is one other thing that can cause a rear wheel to not rotate freely. The hand brake does not seem to center well on my car. One side can have lots of room between pad and rotor, while the other side is kinda tight so it rubs some. I never figured that out and I'm not happy with the design of the handbrake.
 

DPM

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Mar 16, 2001
Location
Newtownards, N. Ireland
TDI
2019 Rav4 AWD Hybrid, Citroen C4 BlueHDI
Procedure with a lot of these taper- roller setups is to tighten until there's barely perceptable play- on some brands, the washer is drilled oversize, and the setting is correct when you can just move the washer under the nut by levering with a screwdriver, and no more...
 
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