Mazda SkyActiv Diesel Engine

IndigoBlueWagon said:

I believe the cars with oil dilution issues did not have SCR. The new one does. That alone may fix the problem as it requires little, if any, post combustion fuel injection.

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You may be mixing two different things. SCR systems inject urea into the exhaust gases to reduce nitrous oxides into harmless nitrogen. Injecting fuel into cylinders post-combustion is done to burn off accumulated soot from the DPF filter, and all engines with DPF filters must undergo these periodic cleaning cycles.

My understanding is that diesel via post-combustion injection can serve a similar purpose to Adblue in reducing Nox. If an emissions system used adblue it may still have post-combustion injection to burn off soot, but it'll inject less fuel. But maybe I've got that wrong.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

My understanding is that diesel via post-combustion injection can serve a similar purpose to Adblue in reducing Nox. If an emissions system used adblue it may still have post-combustion injection to burn off soot, but it'll inject less fuel. But maybe I've got that wrong.

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from what I remember a car with ad blu can run more efficiently producing more power that leads to more NOx that can be nutralized with the addition down stream of ad blu....

the issue is the shorter duration between required ad blu refills is not something the epa or carb is all that willing to certify for on road use....

the regulators in carb & the epa both seem to be set on not approving systems that require refills before the ~10k mile mark on a regular basis....

and as has been said post injection requirements are related to getting aftertreatment stuff up to temp when needed to burn off soot....

from what I recall in all I have read the balance is how much power can you produce(get away with) by timing changes that improve efficiency that will produce more NOx that can be nutralized with ad blu without overloading the soot cat to the point it can't dispose of the soot load without suffering damage that shortens the service life....

"A" produces "B" is dealt with by ad blu which can lead to overheating the soot cat to deal with the unloading of soot load. The soot cat can only handle "X" numbers of regens before they suffer damage that shortens their service life.....

...by the way at some point when we finally adopt Ultra-Fine PM limits on gassers requiring soot traps on all vehicles this will be an issue they also have to deal with...

tikal said:

The Toyota RAV4 gasoline hybrid does not look like much of a competition when it comes to efficiency either (for the cost). The 2018 Toyota RAV4 hybrid is showing an average MPG of ~31 MPG in Fuelly based on over 1 million accumulated miles. Also the Argonne National Labs GREET model shows that current hybrid gasoline engines have an overall bigger environmental footprint vs their modern compliant light duty diesel counterparts.

So far using the Fuelly data the efficiency winner for a CUV is the 2018 Chevrolet Equinox diesel with a combined average 36 MPG in approx. 217,500 accumulated miles!

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2019 should have a significant improvement in efficiency, as it's moved to a new generation engine and hybrid system.

The 2012-2017 Camry Hybrid and 2013-2018 Avalon Hybrid/Lexus ES 300h used to run the same engine and hybrid system as the 2016-2018 RAV4 Hybrid, the 2018+ Camry Hybrid and 2019+ Avalon Hybrid/Lexus ES 300h runs the same engine and hybrid system as the 2019 RAV4 Hybrid.

The old Camrys ran around 35-37 MPG on Fuelly, the new ones run around 42-43 MPG on Fuelly. Avalons went from 35-37 to 40, Lexus ES 300hs went from 35-37 to 41.

So, I'd expect somewhere between 34 and 37 Fuelly MPG out of the 2019+ RAV4 Hybrids. No 2019s are in Fuelly yet though.

And, remember that 13% MPGe hit that diesels take due to the more energy-dense fuel.

bhtooefr said:

2019 should have a significant improvement in efficiency, as it's moved to a new generation engine and hybrid system.

The 2012-2017 Camry Hybrid and 2013-2018 Avalon Hybrid/Lexus ES 300h used to run the same engine and hybrid system as the 2016-2018 RAV4 Hybrid, the 2018+ Camry Hybrid and 2019+ Avalon Hybrid/Lexus ES 300h runs the same engine and hybrid system as the 2019 RAV4 Hybrid.

The old Camrys ran around 35-37 MPG on Fuelly, the new ones run around 42-43 MPG on Fuelly. Avalons went from 35-37 to 40, Lexus ES 300hs went from 35-37 to 41.

So, I'd expect somewhere between 34 and 37 Fuelly MPG out of the 2019+ RAV4 Hybrids. No 2019s are in Fuelly yet though.

And, remember that 13% MPGe hit that diesels take due to the more energy-dense fuel.

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Good to know about the new hybrid engine in the RAV4 starting with the 2019 model. Time will tell about real life MPG in a CUV/SUV being driving in mix configuration (with load, in mountains, etc.).

We can look at specific aspects of the diesel vs gasoline vs gasoline-hybrid but to me it is not one specific metric (fuel density in this case) vs another but the whole package of what a light diesel duty does to the environment vs a gasoline/hybrid vehicle.

I think having more light duty diesel choices in larger vehicles is good news for the environment. Americans want to buy larger vehicles (mostly CUVs, SUVs and trucks). Sedan sales continue to decline in the US and I do not see anything changing this trend in the foreseeable future.

The scoffing comments in this thread are really amazing to me. You don’t see why you’d buy this vehicle? The base gasser gets similar FE with literally nonexistent power and torque. The upgraded gasser gets equivalent power and torque at 4000 RPM, instead of the diesel’s 2000 RPM. And the low EPA cycle reflects a cold start according to Mazda. Pricey, perhaps, but the case for this engine in this car is clear.

^^^ I agree, the diesel lump is desirable, but from what I have read it's only available in the loaded trim level.

I'll probably test drive one for fun when they show up. The turbo 2.5l gas engine may not have great fuel consumption either, but it is diesel-like in power delivery according to Car and Driver. 310 ft-lbs @ 2000 rpm.

turbobrick240 said:

I'll probably test drive one for fun when they show up. The turbo 2.5l gas engine may not have great fuel consumption either, but it is diesel-like in power delivery according to Car and Driver. 310 ft-lbs @ 2000 rpm.

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You’re right, HP for the Skyactiv X tops out at 5K rpm, torque at only 2K, according to Mazda.

I’m not sure what you mean though about “may not have great fuel consumption either” — are you grading on a curve? And it’s premium unleaded, unless you want to take a performance hit.

I think if someone is willing to pay $41K+ on a mid-sized crossover then saving money isn't their first priority, and fuel economy won't be the most important decision making factor. I'm willing to bet this engine will drive significantly better than any of the gasoline engines in this vehicle, no matter what the power output numbers say. And it's probably a good alternative to the Equinox diesel.

^^^ handling and braking will be better in the Mazda too. And the interior is gorgeous, they stirred in some Miata DNA when they designed it. Equinox oil burner wins on price though.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

I think if someone is willing to pay $41K+ on a mid-sized crossover then saving money isn't their first priority, and fuel economy won't be the most important decision making factor. I'm willing to bet this engine will drive significantly better than any of the gasoline engines in this vehicle, no matter what the power output numbers say. And it's probably a good alternative to the Equinox diesel.

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Exactly right. From the mindset of a current 3.0 L TDI SUV owner, if I want a new replacement, I could spend $65K+ for a Land Rover 3.0 diesel, or $55K for a Jaguar 2.0 diesel, and with either of them, pray every night that tomorrow won’t be the day the car throws a fault. Or I can go way downmarket for the Chevy but that doesn’t seem like fun to me.

Now I have a better option. $41K on a Mazda seems like a helluva bargain.

Mythdoc said:

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I’m not sure what you mean though about “may not have great fuel consumption either” — are you grading on a curve? And it’s premium unleaded, unless you want to take a performance hit.

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I guess my Golf spoiled me- I have a hard time getting excited about sub 30 mpg vehicles these days. I think our market gets a specially neutered version of the skyactiv d .

turbobrick240 said:

I think our market gets a specially neutered version of the skyactiv d .

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That's what tuners are for.

Yeah, it will be interesting to see what the tuners can do with these cars. I'm guessing they use Denso and other Japanese manufacturer fuel injection and ecu systems rather than Bosch. Not that it should have much impact on tunability.

The summer just started only a few minutes ago, so the countdown has started for Mazda to deliver (at loooooooooooooong last) the diesel they've been promising us for almost a decade now. Since Mazda's web site says "Available summer 2019", they have until September 23 to make good on their promise. Will they blow it again? What do you guys think?

They're on their site. You can "reserve" one. I think it's for real this time.

Please Mazda do it this time!!!! bring an auto class offering here with diesel power

I hope this is real, Jaguar just announced they were ending sale of their auto class diesel powered offered for US sales at the end of the year!...

... Mazda could be very well the only diesel in auto class offering on sale next year, except for the all of the re-sale CPO TDIs still being offered...

...Chevy has said no more cruze td offering at the end of this model year, who is left that will be offering an auto class vehicle with diesel power???...

I am wondering if, the current anti-pollution regulation climate in the white house is push to finally start to offer something with diesel power in the US,....

Is the fact that the current EPA climate against following through on any of the current light & heavy duty diesel on road emissions standards could be pushing Mazda to finally offer at least something with diesel power here for sale? the 6 or maybe one of those small suv's...??...


For mazda finally will this be the test bed for sales here with something with diesel power that will tell whether more offerings could get diesel power under the hood of an auto class offering from Mazda..??...

Could it finally become reality? NADA is now listing the pricing of the Signature Diesel trim on their web site.

It looks like they have finally arrived at some dealers. None here in Houston, but I am seeing them at a Mazda dealer in Murfreesboro, TN (that is the closest one to me) and a few other dealers.

another suv I have no interest in ever owning....great....why could they not have also brought us the car many of us here would have considered buying,the 6 diesel,,,.....????,,,,,

rotarykid said:

another suv I have no interest in ever owning....great....why could they not have also brought us the car many of us here would have considered buying,the 6 diesel,,,.....????,,,,,

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For what it's worth, Mazda's web site does show that the model 6 will be available with the diesel at some point in the future without giving any indication as to when that may happen. It is listed among the "future vehicles" in their model line-up. My hope is that they make this power plant available in their low-end trims, not just in the top-of-the-line offerings as is the case with the CX-5. For 42 grand, I believe there are better vehicles available than this one, albeit with gas engines. Whenever that happens, Mazda will be the only company with a diesel passenger vehicle offering in the U.S.

soot1 said:

It looks like they have finally arrived at some dealers. None here in Houston, but I am seeing them at a Mazda dealer in Murfreesboro, TN (that is the closest one to me) and a few other dealers.

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Not too far from where I live. Might be worth the road trip and a test drive.

rotarykid said:

another suv I have no interest in ever owning....great....why could they not have also brought us the car many of us here would have considered buying,the 6 diesel,,,.....????,,,,,

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Primarily because Americans want SUVs, not sedans.

TDIClub members want mostly diesel wagons, hatchbacks and sedans.

Imagine if VW, Mazda or any other car company would have brought a diesel SUV (non-luxury) similar to the Mazda CX-7 size when the cost of fuel was on the average, nationwide at or above $3/gallon!!! I am thinking sometime between 2007 and 2013 time-frame. They would have been highly competitive against their gasoline counterparts.

Now, not so much considering the average cost of regular unleaded gasoline.

It's obvious that right now fuel prices are well below any point of pain for most consumers. Buying habits (big trucks and SUVs) would indicate that fuel economy isn't very high on the list of car buying criteria these days. And I doubt that will change anytime soon. If oil prices rise there are just that many more fracking operations that become cost-effective and producers just turn on the spigot. Doesn't bode well for diesels.

Only comfort I take in stable fuel prices is it doesn't bode well for electric cars, either.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

It's obvious that right now fuel prices are well below any point of pain for most consumers. Buying habits (big trucks and SUVs) would indicate that fuel economy isn't very high on the list of car buying criteria these days. And I doubt that will change anytime soon. If oil prices rise there are just that many more fracking operations that become cost-effective and producers just turn on the spigot. Doesn't bode well for diesels.

Only comfort I take in stable fuel prices is it doesn't bode well for electric cars, either.

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IMO it remains to be seen how mass-marketing of EV's will bode out. It is more likely government will screw that up just like they did diesels.

I imagine the diesel cx-5 will fizzle out pretty quickly here. Very few Americans will want to spend $50k for a diesel crossover when it's down on both power and torque and only gets a couple mpg better than than it's skyactiv G counterpart. But I'd still love to test drive one.

There are a lot of things I like about the CX-5, but the lack of a manual transmission and the styling are two things I don't like. I liked the pre-facelift version better.

And I suspect that owners will achieve real world FE that's significantly higher than the EPA figures.

turbobrick240 said:

I imagine the diesel cx-5 will fizzle out pretty quickly here. Very few Americans will want to spend $50k for a diesel crossover when it's down on both power and torque and only gets a couple mpg better than than it's skyactiv G counterpart. But I'd still love to test drive one.

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I agree 100%, although I suspect the vehicle will return better FE than what is advertised on the window sticker. Mazda completely missed this huge window of opportunity by not having the diesel ready when the dieselgate blew up, and now they only offer this engine in the most expensive trim, as if to suggest that diesel is the best engine they make available in the CX-5. Unfortunately, and as you stated earlier, the turbo gasser delivers both more power and more torque, so one would reasonably wonder what would be the point of ordering less powerful, less torquy engine and still pay premium for it.

turbobrick240 said:

I imagine the diesel cx-5 will fizzle out pretty quickly here. Very few Americans will want to spend $50k for a diesel crossover when it's down on both power and torque and only gets a couple mpg better than than it's skyactiv G counterpart. But I'd still love to test drive one.

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It’s not $50k it’s $41k equipped with every option on Mazda’s list. You can’t find a way to pay more even if you try. So, you overestimate by a lot.

While I also predict lack of success for the vehicle, due to a lack of enthusiasm for it among Mazda’s normal clientele and their dealer network, it is truly aimed at Audi Q5 drivers like myself or perhaps more accurately, the Tiguan level buyer. Like many of the current crop of Asian cars (Hyundai and Kia notably), the interior is an almost minute knock off of Audi’s interiors from the current and previous generations.

If my Q5 was not going great and still warranted through 2024 I’d be very interested to drive it with a serious thought of purchasing. I’d also drive their turbogasser. But numbers on the Monroney sticker are very misleading. In particular, the smaller turbocharged gasoline engines seem to have torque curves that are pointy, not smooth, unlike diesel powered engines.