Lifter noise on cold startup.

Driver_found · Dec 31, 2013

Had oil change done. Lifter/tappet noise still there when car is cold. Looks like it will be going in for a look see.

That's what the warranty is for I guess.

Hypermile · Jan 5, 2014

DieselBrownie said:
Alright folks, got the car back, and all is well so far. For those interested here are the part numbers and labor ops charged to warranty on the ticket.

15542083 Rocker Arm Remove+Reinstall $32.79
15052033 Camshaft Remove+Reinstall $677.66
01500000 GFF/Guided Functions $41.53 <---Dunno what that's for.

(16) 03L-109-521-A LashAdjust $23.90 ea. $382.40
(1) D-176-501-A1 Sealant $ 24.30

For such a minor problem, it's a hefty ticket, and I'm glad it's not coming out of my pocket!

The car runs great, idles smoothly and starts quietly, just as it should. I was informed that my lifters (along with others the area rep. had seen,) were all being sent back for a "vendor study," which leads me to believe that VW is aware of this problem. Of course, it's hard to say if the problem is common enough for them to do anything about it, but at the moment it appears that with enough documented evidence, you can get this fixed without too much hassle.

I still love this car, and don't feel like this was that big a deal to have fixed. If yours does it, catch it on video a few times (so they can be sure,) and go get you some lash adjusters!

Thanks for the heads up!

TomB · Jan 5, 2014

DieselBrownie said:
Alright folks, got the car back, and all is well so far. For those interested here are the part numbers and labor ops charged to warranty on the ticket.

15542083 Rocker Arm Remove+Reinstall $32.79
15052033 Camshaft Remove+Reinstall $677.66
01500000 GFF/Guided Functions $41.53 <---Dunno what that's for.

(16) 03L-109-521-A LashAdjust $23.90 ea. $382.40
(1) D-176-501-A1 Sealant $ 24.30

For such a minor problem, it's a hefty ticket, and I'm glad it's not coming out of my pocket!

The car runs great, idles smoothly and starts quietly, just as it should. I was informed that my lifters (along with others the area rep. had seen,) were all being sent back for a "vendor study," which leads me to believe that VW is aware of this problem. Of course, it's hard to say if the problem is common enough for them to do anything about it, but at the moment it appears that with enough documented evidence, you can get this fixed without too much hassle.

I still love this car, and don't feel like this was that big a deal to have fixed. If yours does it, catch it on video a few times (so they can be sure,) and go get you some lash adjusters!

I don't see any part replacement on this work. Did they just adjust stuff?

Driver_found · Jan 8, 2014

Would like to know if it appears to just be adjustments too. That being said, will they have to do it again later when you are outside of warranty?

cevans · Jan 8, 2014

I'm just passing 20k miles, my '13 has made this noise on startup since the day it was new. I'm extremely not concerned.

Driver_found · Jan 9, 2014

I'm at @ 50k miles in my 2013, and it annoys me that this is even occurring in this day and age. Setup to take it in next month. It's under warranty, but still.

Seems like there is always something with these cars, (I've had numerous VW's), even though they are very good overall.

charley654 · Jan 12, 2014

our 2013 passat does the cold start lifter noise here and there randomly.
our 2012 jetta TDI never does it.
not concerned at this point.

tdiatlast · Jan 13, 2014

Driver_found said:
I'm at @ 50k miles in my 2013, and it annoys me that this is even occurring in this day and age. Setup to take it in next month. It's under warranty, but still.

Seems like there is always something with these cars, (I've had numerous VW's), even though they are very good overall.

I've had infrequent tap at start-up (maybe 3 times?), and while I agree with you, I also consider the gazillions of steps involved in manufactured ANYTHING, and the potential/reality of failure, especially in an automobile as complex as the CR-TDI.
Parts will continue to fail prematurely. That's why airplanes have built-in redundancy.

nord · Jan 13, 2014

Other than being annoying a dry lifter really isn't an issue unless it fails to pump up. My guess is that our thin oil is seeping out of the lifter(s) which have remained under pressure when the engine was shut down. If this be the case, then they should fill and return to normal within a very short time after starting the engine.

Once again... Remember the old slant six. If it didn't have lifter noise it wasn't running. And if it did have lifter noise ( always did), then we knew something was happening up front as they really didn't put out enough horsepower to be assured that you weren't just coasting downhill.

Not saying that today's cars should have lifter noise. They shouldn't! Just saying that lifter noise which subsides quickly after a start is of very little concern overall.

jrm · Jan 13, 2014

nord said:
Other than being annoying a dry lifter really isn't an issue unless it fails to pump up. My guess is that our thin oil is seeping out of the lifter(s) which have remained under pressure when the engine was shut down. If this be the case, then they should fill and return to normal within a very short time after starting the engine.

Once again... Remember the old slant six. If it didn't have lifter noise it wasn't running. And if it did have lifter noise ( always did), then we knew something was happening up front as they really didn't put out enough horsepower to be assured that you weren't just coasting downhill.

Not saying that today's cars should have lifter noise. They shouldn't! Just saying that lifter noise which subsides quickly after a start is of very little concern overall.

I agree 100%, Mine ticked loud for minutes, but only that one time, so that leads me to believe just one is leaking down and we just happened to have shut down while that valve was open the night before. All good so far

cevans · Jan 17, 2014

I'm not convinced this is lifter tick - my experience with old Mercedes diesels has taught me lifter ticking, but...this seems different. For one it isn't very loud and doesn't have that "dry" sound that a empty lifter usually has.

Bug Smasher · Jan 21, 2014

Here is what the factory Repair Manual for NMS Passat says in Section 15 (Cylinder Head, Valvetrain), Sub-section 3.4 (Hydraulic Lash Adjuster, Checking):

The hydraulic lash adjuster cannot be repaired.
Irregular valve noises are normal while starting the engine.
...
If irregular valve noises disappear but return during short drives,
the oil check valve must be replaced.
...
If the hydraulic lash adjusters are still loud, determine which
one is faulty

Driver_found · Feb 27, 2014

Dealer is replacing all of the lifters. Stay tuned.

Driver_found · Mar 12, 2014

nord said:
Lifter not pumping up. (Actually leaking down, then taking a brief time to pump up.) Shades of the old Chrysler Slant Six. Very likely not serious. All the same it shouldn't be making this noise.

With the old six we just learned to accept the racket. With that engine putting out so little horsepower the noise assured us that something was actually stirring under the hood. Otherwise there may have been a question. 95 hp out of 225 cubic inches as I remember pushing a hunk of metal and rust heavier than your Passat. Those were the days!

With a new TDI I wouldn't be quite so charitable. If your particular tech is paid by fixed rate, then I might understand why he's not excited. Lifter replacement means cam removal... Which means timing belt removal. The coming apart isn't a big deal. Going back together is! There's no room for error. And then the matter of the time involved to do the procedure correctly.

—————

I had collapsed lifters. They replaced all of the lifters. Picked the car, up and the noise is still there from a cold start (zero heat in the crankcase), just not as loud now. Runs great when warmed up. The car is going back into service, and the theory is that there could be an oil leak down issue as Nord suggested to everyone. I wonder if the Oil Check Valve is bad? Because supposedly it had gotten quiet, but the noise returned. Should have a handle on it by the end of the month. Dealer has been great with all of this.
Would have cost me @ $1,500 if I was out of warranty.

When the car was new, it was quiet as can be. I've put @ 50k miles on the car in a year, so I have a pretty good idea when something isn't normal.

Ace Deprave · Mar 17, 2014

I noticed this sound last week. I guess I need to get audio/video of it to show the dealer. I'm at 48k miles, fwiw.

Driver_found · Mar 17, 2014

Mine started @46k miles, fwiw. Should have answer in @ 2 weeks.

TypeRod · Mar 20, 2014

Driver_found said:
Mine started @46k miles, fwiw. Should have answer in @ 2 weeks.

Please keep us posted!

Hey Diesel Brownie, how is your car doing, still running good?

Driver_found · Apr 2, 2014

Symptons: The noise got really loud, and it also became a drivability issue when the car was cold (from a cold start). The car would not run well at all, and sometimes it felt like it wanted to seize or stumble. Once the car warmed up, things acted normally.

Update: So VW suggested they test injectors, one at a time. - Noise still there.

So then they replaced all of the lifters, as they found some collapsed lifters when they opened the head. After replacements, - Noise was still there. Drove it for a week, noise still there.

Now VW wants them to replace some fuel injectors, and we'll see if this solves the problem.

Why if the injectors checked out the first time, and now is a target of probable cause is perplexing to me. Even when they found collapsed lifters and replaced all of them. My gut would then lead me to check the oil pump or oil supply, but we'll see if it is infact injector related.

Softrockrenegade · Apr 2, 2014

Driver_found said:
Symptons: The noise got really loud, and it also became a drivability issue when the car was cold (from a cold start). The car would not run well at all, and sometimes it felt like it wanted to seize or stumble. Once the car warmed up, things acted normally.

Update: So VW suggested they test injectors, one at a time. - Noise still there.

So then they replaced all of the lifters, as they found some collapsed lifters when they opened the head. After replacements, - Noise was still there. Drove it for a week, noise still there.

Now VW wants them to replace some fuel injectors, and we'll see if this solves the problem.

Why if the injectors checked out the first time, and now is a target of probable cause is perplexing to me. Even when they found collapsed lifters and replaced all of them. My gut would then lead me to check the oil pump or oil supply, but we'll see if it is infact injector related.

Makes me wonder if the lifter problem and turbo problem on some cars is really an oil pump/supply problem ???

jrm · Apr 2, 2014

My cold start lifter noise is back as well, and like the first time with 8k on the oil. Oil is very thin and black- and smells like burnt ATF

tdiatlast · Apr 3, 2014

jrm: Why not send an oil sample out to Blackstone? I'm not sure anyone can diagnose and oil problem with eyes and nose!

Driver_found · Apr 3, 2014

FYI: My recent Blackstone report shows My Aluminum was 32, and Iron 30 with @ 50k miles on it. The oil in the crankcase has @ 4k miles on it after last oil change.
Report states that universal average for Aluminum is 19, and Iron is 43.
They noted the higher AL could 'possibly' show signs of piston wear. No fuel or coolant was found.

tdiatlast · Apr 3, 2014

FYi: My UOA at 40k showed alum at 137, chromium 9, iron 97, copper 18. I had zero lifter issues (noise) turbo whistle from 7k miles - 40k miles. Traded the car with turbo intact.

Sadly, neither the dealership nor VWoA is interested in tearing down the engine to see what's going on.

Floydianslip · Apr 3, 2014

Folks, i'm new to this so forgive me if there is thread already out there that addresses this :

i have the 2013 passat SE TDI., DSG

Two issues:

(i) When is DSG mode , at certain rpm, there is a rattling sound coming from the passenger side

(ii) I hear a clicking sound coming from the steering column when the turning indicator is engaged and I turn the steering in either direction.

Any insights on these issues would be helpful. thanks.

VeeDubTDI · Apr 3, 2014

1.) Not sure what you mean. Do you have a better description of when this rattling noise happens? Moving? Not moving? Accelerating? Decelerating?

2.) The clicking in the steering wheel is the clock spring inside. This noise is a common complaint on late model Volkswagens and so far there has been no solution offered. You probably notice it when the turn signal is not on, as well.

Driver_found · Apr 10, 2014

Update for those following this. Lots of parts thrown at this, including new lifters, new ECM, new injectors, new fuel, and @ a month in the shop. VW is deeply involved now, but still not fixed. Loud lifter(s) noise, and dramatic drivability issue when cold started is still present. Dealer has been nice, but this process has taken way longer than I expected.
Especially with VW calling the shots on what to fix.
Observation. If VW doesn't know how to fix it the first time, then who you gonna call?

phlfly · Apr 10, 2014

Try Mobil 1 oil vs Castrol.

Softrockrenegade · Apr 10, 2014

Driver_found said:
Update for those following this. Lots of parts thrown at this, including new lifters, new ECM, new injectors, new fuel, and @ a month in the shop. VW is deeply involved now, but still not fixed. Loud lifter(s) noise, and dramatic drivability issue when cold started is still present. Dealer has been nice, but this process has taken way longer than I expected.
Especially with VW calling the shots on what to fix.
Observation. If VW doesn't know how to fix it the first time, then who you gonna call?

What are the drivability issues when cold?

Driver_found · Apr 10, 2014

Softrockrenegade said:
What are the drivability issues when cold?

Car stumbles in mostly 3rd,4th gear. Doesn't want to run well, lack of power, feels like it wants to seize up. Have to keep jumping around on my gearbox to select a gear that will choose an RPM that will keep the car running. Forget about going with the flow of traffic. All is well once warmed up though.

jrm · Apr 10, 2014

Driver_found said:
Car stumbles in mostly 3rd,4th gear. Doesn't want to run well, lack of power, feels like it wants to seize up. Have to keep jumping around on my gearbox to select a gear that will choose an RPM that will keep the car running. Forget about going with the flow of traffic. All is well once warmed up though.

Exactly what would happen when the valves fail to open far enough- if the new lifters are running collapsed something is causing a lack of oil pressure..... and most likely also starving the turbo of oil. Wonder if oil hammer knows what would cause lack of oil pressure to the head? 5w30 should be up to 40psi in under 5 seconds and lifters should be fully pumped up by 10 seconds.
I give a +1 to Phlfly on 5w40 mobile 1, I come from 15,000 RPM bike engine background and thin oil is great for artic conditions and fuel mileage- that's about it. I have seen plenty of camshafts burn there way into the head and upper wrist pin failures due to thin oil (granted this is a diesel that only revs up to where bikes idle at)

Lifter noise on cold startup.

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