Lifter noise on cold startup.

DieselBrownie · Nov 5, 2013

Hey folks, I Just thought I'd pass along some info about an ongoing situation with my car, in case you're having the same symptoms.

My '13 passat TDI has been exhibiting a noise on cold start-up that sounds a lot like a collapsed lifter. This began right around my 10k service and I'm currently just over 20k miles. Upon a few visits to VW, (and them "not finding the problem,") I decided to make a youtube video of the elusive sound.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unDplH7Ago4

In the dealer's defense, the sound didn't present itself every morning as loud as you hear in the video, but it was there none the less. I was a mechanic for about 10 years, and recognized the sound right off, but I'm sure the service department talks to lots of "mechanics" who bring their car in for service.

Upon showing the service department my video, I was given a loan car, and have been in said loan car for about two weeks now. I was called last Friday by the service manager and told that VWOA's area technical representative had authorized a set of tappets to ordered and subsequently installed in my car, which should be completed sometime this week.

When I first came across this problem, I searched this forum for similar occurrences, but only found instances of the AdBlue solenoid doing its purge at start up. As you'll see in the video, this noise is quite different, and occurs concurrently with the solenoid's noise. I'm hoping that this is a rare and limited occurrence, but in the case that it is not, I'd like it documented here for others to search and see.

I'll likely have my car back soon, and I'll give an update on whether or not this fixes the problem.

-Matt

unixb0y · Nov 5, 2013

DieselBrownie said:
Hey folks, I Just thought I'd pass along some info about an ongoing situation with my car, in case you're having the same symptoms.

My '13 passat TDI has been exhibiting a noise on cold start-up that sounds a lot like a collapsed lifter. This began right around my 10k service and I'm currently just over 20k miles. Upon a few visits to VW, (and them "not finding the problem,") I decided to make a youtube video of the elusive sound.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unDplH7Ago4

In the dealer's defense, the sound didn't present itself every morning as loud as you hear in the video, but it was there none the less. I was a mechanic for about 10 years, and recognized the sound right off, but I'm sure the service department talks to lots of "mechanics" who bring their car in for service.

Upon showing the service department my video, I was given a loan car, and have been in said loan car for about two weeks now. I was called last Friday by the service manager and told that VWOA's area technical representative had authorized a set of tappets to ordered and subsequently installed in my car, which should be completed sometime this week.

When I first came across this problem, I searched this forum for similar occurrences, but only found instances of the AdBlue solenoid doing its purge at start up. As you'll see in the video, this noise is quite different, and occurs concurrently with the solenoid's noise. I'm hoping that this is a rare and limited occurrence, but in the case that it is not, I'd like it documented here for others to search and see.

I'll likely have my car back soon, and I'll give an update on whether or not this fixes the problem.

-Matt

People have mentioned in the past the the DEF pump makes a clicking sound when purging the air from the def lines.

Does your ticking sound go away?

gforce1108 · Nov 5, 2013

If that were an ALH TDI, I'd say it was compression blowing past an injector seal. Did you pull the top cover off to see where the noise was coming from (a piece of hose works great)?

ChadS99SVT · Nov 5, 2013

what are these tappets?

oilhammer · Nov 5, 2013

ChadS99SVT said:
what are these tappets?

Something that the CKRA engine doesn't technically have. But the idea is the same, it has HLAs (Hydraulic Lash Adjusters) under the end of the roller rockers.

My ETKA is down right now, so I can't tell you exactly what VAG calls them.

Of course, right from the book in the lash adjuster section it states "irregular valve noises are normal when starting the engine" and then they give a simple procedure for checking them. But this involves running the engine for 2 minutes at 2500 RPMs.

ChadS99SVT · Nov 5, 2013

oilhammer said:
Something that the CKRA engine doesn't technically have. But the idea is the same, it has HLAs (Hydraulic Lash Adjusters) under the end of the roller rockers.

My ETKA is down right now, so I can't tell you exactly what VAG calls them.

Of course, right from the book in the lash adjuster section it states "irregular valve noises are normal when starting the engine" and then they give a simple procedure for checking them. But this involves running the engine for 2 minutes at 2500 RPMs.

so is what he is experiencing an actual problem? (may be hard to say).

for some reason I think my car might make this noise but not really sure. I will be listening for it now.

VeeDubTDI · Nov 5, 2013

Ours has occasional lifter tick on startup. It doesn't seem to have any rhyme or reason and it's been doing it for quite a while... fortunately it goes away quickly so I'm not too worried about it.

I also noticed this on GeekDrew's car.

DieselBrownie · Nov 5, 2013

unixb0y said:
People have mentioned in the past the the DEF pump makes a clicking sound when purging the air from the def lines.

Does your ticking sound go away?

It does. This sound lasts anywhere from 1-3 minutes, depending on how fast the car warms up.

*Edit: The lash adjuster sound goes away. I'm familiar with the sounds the after treatment systems make, and I indeed have those sounds as well. This particular sound is RPM dependent, at 1/2 crankshaft speed.

DieselBrownie · Nov 5, 2013

gforce1108 said:
If that were an ALH TDI, I'd say it was compression blowing past an injector seal. Did you pull the top cover off to see where the noise was coming from (a piece of hose works great)?

I pulled the cover off to put a stethoscope to it, just to try and get an idea of where it was coming from. There was no change in driveability whatsoever, and it just had that loose valve sound!

Besides, at 20k, this baby is VW's to fix.

superchud · Nov 5, 2013

I experience a similar sound when starting mine up in the morning. Goes away after a few min. I just chalk it up to cold engine as my previous gasser did the same thing.

VeeDubTDI · Nov 5, 2013

It's important to distinguish between the AdBlue injector's normal clicking and actual valvetrain noise. Make sure you know which one you're talking about. AdBlue injector is perfectly normal, while valvetrain noise is questionable, although it has been reported by several people so far.

DieselBrownie · Nov 5, 2013

oilhammer said:
Something that the CKRA engine doesn't technically have. But the idea is the same, it has HLAs (Hydraulic Lash Adjusters) under the end of the roller rockers.

My ETKA is down right now, so I can't tell you exactly what VAG calls them.

Of course, right from the book in the lash adjuster section it states "irregular valve noises are normal when starting the engine" and then they give a simple procedure for checking them. But this involves running the engine for 2 minutes at 2500 RPMs.

Thanks for the reply! I thought you might have a better idea how this system worked... Having never pulled the valve cover on one of these newer engines, I was curious as to how this was all set up. The service manager called it a tappet, and being overhead cam I figured it had some sort of hydraulic follower (like what you used to see on Chrysler products.) Is it more similar to a shim bucket (like what you commonly see on Asian cylinder heads?)

I don't doubt VW would write this as normal in the manual (typical car manufacturer behavior,) as there's no telling what sort of warranty claim this is generating. It'd be one thing if the noise went away as soon as oil pressure developed, and if all 16 lash adjusters did it, but it's only one, it's super loud, and it takes several minutes to pump it up.

It kind of reminds me of when Toyota was blaming the customers for their v-6's sludging up, saying it was a lack of maintenance (despite perfect records from customers.) It took many a lawsuit to turn all that around, to what became the great technician money-maker of the early 2000's.

DieselBrownie · Nov 5, 2013

VeeDubTDI said:
It's important to distinguish between the AdBlue injector's normal clicking and actual valvetrain noise. Make sure you know which one you're talking about. AdBlue injector is perfectly normal, while valvetrain noise is questionable, although it has been reported by several people so far.

It's pretty easy to distinguish, as the sound I'm complaining about is RPM dependent, at 1/2 speed of the engine. It really stuck out to me, because I worked for a GM shop back when they were in the habit of putting ****ty roller lifters in their v-8's. Symptoms were nearly identical, and I couldn't tell you how many sets I put in! Needless to say, I was disappointed when I heard this sound coming out of my new car. Then again, any car can be built on a Monday...

ChadS99SVT · Nov 5, 2013

VeeDubTDI said:
Ours has occasional lifter tick on startup. It doesn't seem to have any rhyme or reason and it's been doing it for quite a while... fortunately it goes away quickly so I'm not too worried about it.

I also noticed this on GeekDrew's car.

Yeah I'm thinking I've heard something similar but just started mine after sitting for close to 24 hrs and it sounded solid.

I will keep an ear out.

jrm · Nov 5, 2013

Wife leaves 30 minutes before I do and every morning I watch her and my 3yr old back out of the garage- the ad blue pump sounds more like a bad belt than a lifter. No lifter sounds on mine yet.

oilhammer · Nov 6, 2013

I think you'll find that the noise is common enough as to not be concerned about it, and that it is very possible the dealer will muck more stuff up trying to go in and "fix" something that isn't really broken.

Now, given the amount of work (the top end of the head has to come apart, timing belt has to come off, upper cam frame and cams have to come out, this is not a trivial job) the opportunity for the beginnings of a lifetime of grief will come into play here. It may be "their dime" but it is YOUR car.

I'd not let them touch it. I'll bet 100,000 miles from now, your engine will still sound and run exactly the same. Let them touch it, and 30k miles from now you may be saying "I give up" and we'll get to read yet another "I'm sick of my Volkswagen and sold it" thread

I'm SO glad none of my Volkswagens have ever needed a warranty.

TDI smile · Nov 6, 2013

No WARRANTY ever on none of my 23 VW's................., but my 76 Chrysler LeBaron had a Ticking problem. They wanted to take the engine apart. I said no and they ordered a new LeBaron for me. I could drive the 'ticking' one until the new one arrived !!!! Loved that car and drove it for over 8 years.

Rico567 · Nov 6, 2013

oilhammer said:
I think you'll find that the noise is common enough as to not be concerned about it, and that it is very possible the dealer will muck more stuff up trying to go in and "fix" something that isn't really broken.

<snip>

After listening to the noise on the video,I agree with "oilhammer"'s statement above. I'm thinking that this noise can't be very obtrusive inside the car when it's closed up, and you'd be just asking for trouble to have them tear the engine apart to fix it. Just be sure to document, document, document in case anything goes south later on.

DieselBrownie · Nov 6, 2013

I'm sorry guys, but some of these replies crack me up! If this sort of valve train noise was normal, I suppose all cars would do it. It'd probably even be an ASE question by now!

I can appreciate the concern about the engine coming apart for this repair, but I can't say that I share in the anxiety about it. I myself, have overhauled and made heavy line repairs to a quite a few engines, and I don't see this as being all that big a deal, even with pulling the injectors. If this had a piston pin or a main bearing knock, and they decided to short-block my car, I still wouldn't bat an eye at it. It's all documented, and it will be ok!

Earlier, I got a phone call that my car was put back together yesterday and running well. They cold started it this morning, and the valve train noise was gone. They're keeping it until Friday, as they'd like to cold start it a few more times before I take it back, and give it a good cleaning.
Thank you for your replies, and I hope you have a similar (good) experience if you're to run into this same issue.

VeeDubTDI · Nov 6, 2013

Please let us know what they changed when you get the car back.

Salsaman06 · Nov 6, 2013

Yeah mine has the valve tick too on cold startup.Started doing it with less than 3000 miles on it. This December will be a year owning this car. The valve noise went away as the weather warmed up. Now the temps are dropping, its starting to come back. Like others, only happens on cold start and takes 3-5 minutes to go away. I can make it go away faster by revving to 1500 rpm for about 15-20 secs. Also have been planning to make a video next time it happens. Respectfully disagree with those that would suggest this is normal or an insignificant issue. In this day and age of technology and precision manufacturing, there is no excuse for this. But I do have the same aversion to having my engine cracked open and dealer creating more problems down the road. I'm just not sure what side of this fence I am eventually going to stand on yet.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

jrm · Nov 6, 2013

Just listened to the video- I have to say that's excessive- sounds to me like a hydro adjuster is stuck- with 5w30 oil that thing should be solid in seconds not minutes.
Just my .02

oilhammer · Nov 7, 2013

Well for me, minutes (literally two) from cold start I am doing 80+ at (depending on which car) 2500 to 3500 RPMs. Heck, maybe my cars tick at a cold idle, too! I'd never know!

jrm · Nov 7, 2013

oilhammer said:
Well for me, minutes (literally two) from cold start I am doing 80+ at (depending on which car) 2500 to 3500 RPMs. Heck, maybe my cars tick at a cold idle, too! I'd never know!

That's awesome! Our limits are still 55 even on the straightest sections of highway. 65 on interstates. but anything above 80 lands us a thousand plus dollar ticket even out in the dessert hundred miles from any remote town. As for ticking engines, I am to picky (as friends say) as I herd one shim ticking on my Toyota 3vzfe while sitting in the drive threw (the echo really magnified it) so I pulled it apart and slammed a thicker shim in that very night.

TDIEQNY · Nov 7, 2013

I listened to this video, and I don't have this noise either. Good job OP in getting this fixed.

I have the Adblue tick which goes away after a few secs of the car running.

DieselBrownie · Nov 8, 2013

Alright folks, got the car back, and all is well so far. For those interested here are the part numbers and labor ops charged to warranty on the ticket.

15542083 Rocker Arm Remove+Reinstall $32.79
15052033 Camshaft Remove+Reinstall $677.66
01500000 GFF/Guided Functions $41.53 <---Dunno what that's for.

(16) 03L-109-521-A LashAdjust $23.90 ea. $382.40
(1) D-176-501-A1 Sealant $ 24.30

For such a minor problem, it's a hefty ticket, and I'm glad it's not coming out of my pocket!

The car runs great, idles smoothly and starts quietly, just as it should. I was informed that my lifters (along with others the area rep. had seen,) were all being sent back for a "vendor study," which leads me to believe that VW is aware of this problem. Of course, it's hard to say if the problem is common enough for them to do anything about it, but at the moment it appears that with enough documented evidence, you can get this fixed without too much hassle.

I still love this car, and don't feel like this was that big a deal to have fixed. If yours does it, catch it on video a few times (so they can be sure,) and go get you some lash adjusters!

VeeDubTDI · Nov 8, 2013

Thanks for the info!

DieselBrownie · Nov 8, 2013

Salsaman06 said:
Yeah mine has the valve tick too on cold startup.Started doing it with less than 3000 miles on it. This December will be a year owning this car. The valve noise went away as the weather warmed up. Now the temps are dropping, its starting to come back. Like others, only happens on cold start and takes 3-5 minutes to go away. I can make it go away faster by revving to 1500 rpm for about 15-20 secs. Also have been planning to make a video next time it happens. Respectfully disagree with those that would suggest this is normal or an insignificant issue. In this day and age of technology and precision manufacturing, there is no excuse for this.

This describes exactly how the symptoms presented on my car, and I agree with him completely.

oilhammer · Nov 8, 2013

So they reused a bunch of stretch bolts and the tensioner. Nice.

BTW, Guided Fault Finding is Volkswagen's way of hand-holding technicians through a convoluted Rube Goldberg process of diagnostics that often leads to unnecessary parts replacement.

Please follow up in the miles to come as to how the car is doing.

pleopard · Nov 8, 2013

I occasionally hear a cold start ticking sound that lasts a minute or two, but can't confirm exactly where it's coming from. I've heard it on cold starts anywhere from -15C to 10C. It doesn't seem to be temperature dependent in my case as I've had bone chilling starts without any issues. It's not something I'm concerned about.

Lifter noise on cold startup.

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