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TDI Conversions Discussions on converting non TDIs into TDIS. More general items can be answered better in other sections. This is ideal for issues that don't have an overlap and are very special to swaping engines.

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Old September 7th, 2016, 11:08   #1
oilhammer
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Default B5.5 4mo BHW swap

Given the doom and gloom of the future of diesels, I've decided to not only horde any that I can, I've decided to convert one of my several gasoline powered Volkswagens to diesel.

The subject is my 2004 Passat wagon, which has the AWM 1.8t engine, automatic transmission, and 4mo AWD system (Torsen).

I've obtained a crashed 2005 BHW sedan, and I am looking for some pointers on what all I will need from this car before I scrap it. I know some here have done this sort of thing. The main difference I see as being potentially problematic going forward is the 4mo part, but more on that later.

I have already gotten:

the complete running engine, engine harness all the way to the ECU

the ECU

the fuel lines running across the firewall down to the rear of the car

sound deadeners on firewall

starter

brake booster tube and firewall grommets (different from the AWM)

cluster

trans controller

air cleaner and related plumbing


Now, I know the AWM's transmission (which is working fine BTW at 215k miles) is geared lower, but is otherwise the same basic ZF 5HP unit. For the time being, I'd like to just leave it alone. Hopefully I can swap in the TCM from the BHW which should make the shift points behave better because as it is now if you stab this gasser on the highway it will happily jump down a couple gears and let that AWM sing all the way up past 6k RPM, and pulls pretty good past 4k RPMs, right around where the BHW lays down and dies. So I NEED the shift points to be diesel-friendly, especially if the over all gearing has the engine spinning 600 RPMs faster at 80. I've thought about trying to swap the rear Torsen section of the 4mo trans over to the diesel trans, but then I'd also I'm sure have to change the rear differential, and if I am going to go through all that nonsense, I'd just try and source a manual gearbox. So for now I'd like to make the existing automatic work.

The lift pump is another concern. Since the fuel tank is different, the pump/sending unit arrangement is different, and there were no 4mo diesels sold here. Will the AWM's in tank fuel pump work to pump diesel to make the tandem pump work? If so, how will it be controlled? I have not yet investigated the control circuit for gas vs. diesel in tank pumps. I have also not yet looked into the ECU box on the AWM to see if all the same plugs exist on the car as on the BHW's harness. There are several color coded plugs. Luckily the trans harness is completely separate, as is the rest of the harness for the front of the car. So the engine stuff is TOTALLY independent of anything else, hoping most of this will be plug 'n play.

Going to have to blitz the immo and VIN from the ECU, not sure what I will have to do with the cluster. I'd like to roll the odometer forward though, as the donor car only has 98k miles. I will likely need to recode the ABS controller too, but that shouldn't be an issue.

The donor car had a HARD crash on the left front, as such it bent the power steering pulley which is different as well as the charge air cross tube, which is also different. So I still need to find those two items.

I just want to make sure there is nothing else I need from the donor car before I take it to the scrapper, then some pointers on the actual swap.
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Old September 7th, 2016, 12:00   #2
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Awsome!
Cant wait to see this unfold Ive often stood under these and daydreamed this swap with the 5hp19..
may be possible to convert diesel trans to awd...
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Old September 7th, 2016, 17:37   #3
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Matt and I have all intentions of doing this same principle with an Audi Allroad.

I look forward to your updates!
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Old September 7th, 2016, 18:28   #4
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Brian, I have some A4 Quattro driveline parts available if you want to convert to 5 speed manual - gearbox, rear diff and subframe assembly, and axles. I don't have a spare 3rd pedal or shifter though. PM me if you want it, maybe I'll trade you for your free Beetle if you still have it If I remember correctly the Audi donor was a 1.8t gasser.
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Old September 8th, 2016, 11:58   #5
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I can't help much on the automatic side, but have converted a GLX Passat, Allroad and C5 A6 from gas to diesel and automatic to manual.

For starters I left the fuel pump alone in the gasser AllRoad and installed a T in the engine bay to reduce the pressure. Have not had any issues with it yet.
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Old September 12th, 2016, 20:24   #6
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I'm pretty sure the transmission controller will not be happy with the gear ratio differences. Can anyone program the TCU's for different gear ratios? I just converted a Passat GMR 5HP19 into a 5HP19FLA (Quattro) for use in my A4 B6 BHW swap. That should allow me to use the BHW ECU and GMR TCU together in the A4.
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Old September 12th, 2016, 20:29   #7
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Also, did you take the accelerator pedal from the Passat? I believe they are different part numbers.
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Old September 13th, 2016, 04:53   #8
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Did not realize the accelerator pedal was different, but ETKA does show a different part number... no idea why VAG does stuff like that. Thanks for the info, I will get that out of the car for sure.

You said you changed the FL to an FLA, I thought about that, is it just a matter of swapping the Torsen section off the back or is it more involved than that? Also, this would mean I'd need to swap the rear diff too, yes?

Cannot seem to find much info on gear ratios on these. Most web searches concentrate on the manuals, not the automatics.
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Old September 13th, 2016, 08:51   #9
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Changing the FL to an FLA isn't as easy as it sounds. When I searched I found exactly zero people who had ever done it.

My goal was also to be able to retain my stock A4 rear differential - the 5HP19FLA has two sets of reduction gears in it that match the transmission output to the differentials. I ended up choosing a 5HP19FLA from a B5 A4 that had reduction gears in it that would allow it to match the GMRs 3.08 final drive ratio. I had to order an output gear and output housing shell from Germany to make this work.

You might be able to find a TDI auto trans and controller overseas that would play nice with the BHW ECU for less money. That and in order to put the 5HP19FLA AWD section on to the 5HP19, you have to swap the main output shaft of the transmission - which involves completely disassembling two transmissions.

All that work and $$$ and I'm still not 100% sure it will work when I finally get my swap done. If you can find ZF's ELCat online it will list all the types of 5HP19FL/A's and their gear ratios.
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Old September 13th, 2016, 11:01   #10
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Yeah, that is kind of what I was (am) afraid of. I think I want to try the GMR trans' TCM in the car as it sits right now, with the running/driving AWM engine, just to see what happens. I really doubt there is much difference between the two, just the shift and lockup mapping. All the inputs and outputs are the same, and are all broadcast across the CAN just the same. The VSS signal is through the ECU, not the TCM (nor the ABS, like some other newer VAG platforms).

I know there is soft coding differences FWD vs. AWD, but I really can't think of what real difference that could make other than perhaps they hold the gears out a wee bit longer to compensate for the extra drag of the extra driveline. The Torsen is purely mechanical, it doesn't care about any electronics. Not like a Haldex that has a controller and needs to communicate with the other modules in order to do its job.

I really don't want to have to swallow the added expense and work with a manual swap right now, although I would prefer one.

The AWM is running fine, but it has developed the all-too-common oil leak at the chain tensioner, and at 215k miles I really think that part is on borrowed time anyway. I hate to spend ~$450 on that part (in addition to all the rest of the timing belt and related bits it needs to) if I can make this BHW work on the cheap.
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Old September 13th, 2016, 19:21   #11
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I suspect what will happen is the transmission will go into limp mode and throw an incorrect gear ratio code due to the transmission gears not being the same as the BHW.

You are correct about the torsen. It has no sensors/solenoids and should function normally. I am wondering what will happen with the traction control - I believe it is controlled by the ABS module which is staying in the A4. Hopefully it will behave the same as before while still talking to the BHW ECU.
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Old September 14th, 2016, 02:18   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reddok View Post
I suspect what will happen is the transmission will go into limp mode and throw an incorrect gear ratio code due to the transmission gears not being the same as the BHW.
This is an interesting point - its well known that this happens with the 5HP24, as they have different internal ratios. Swapping TCUs for different ratio versions doesn't work.

However, many years ago I did a lot of research on the 5HP19 and found that all the different versions have just a single set of internal ratios and they changed the overall ratio just with the final drive. In theory you could make a gas version in to a diesel version just by swapping the output shaft and differential. Since the TCU monitors input and output RPM before the final drive gears (and doesn't care about VSS afaik), in theory they will all be the same, regardless of road speed, so the TCU swap might just work.

It'll certainly be interesting to see what it does
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Old September 14th, 2016, 04:45   #13
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That is what I am trying to find out: the 5HP19FL/A ratios. If the actual 1-5 (and R) gear ratios are the same and just the final drive is different, then the TCM should not in theory know the difference and its predicted gear ratio, as measured from input shaft speed to output shaft speed, will remain the same.

I know in many other conventional automatics that is the case. The planetary gearsets are the same, they just change the overall gearing with the final drive.

As for the ABS, the soft coding on the Bosch 5.7 or whatever it is allows for gas or diesel, FWD or AWD, etc. in any combination. So that should not be a problem. This is fresh in my head because I just installed a new unit last week in a customer's car.

Right now I am fixing up a 2004 FWD AWM/automatic sedan to resell. I need to take the front seats out and clean the floorboards from the [all too common] neglected drains, etc. So I'll be at the TCM anyways. I am going to plug the TCM from the diesel in and just see what it does. If it completely spazzes out on this car, then I will know it won't work on my 4mo wagon either and I'll have to look into doing something else.

I also need to get the trans code off of the 4mo car, and then pursue any gear ratio information. ETKA does not show much.
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Old September 14th, 2016, 05:30   #14
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I was wondering about the incorrect gear ratio fault as well... but if it's not measuring final output speed perhaps the TDI computer wouldn't know any better?

As far as what to save... I'd remove every nut, bolt, clip, and wire from the donor car. It's easy enough to throw the bits into labeled boxes then get rid of them later, rather than find you need some little part VW wants $200 for in a couple months.

Could you put slightly taller tires on it to help make up for the gearing difference?

-J
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Old September 14th, 2016, 05:44   #15
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I don't like the look and feel of taller tires, nor the constant worry of tearing up wheel well liners, etc. And since this will be a utility vehicle (Sport Utility Variant.... that is what I already call it ), and won't be used much for high speed long distance runs, I am not too worried about the lower gearing. Right now, in 5th gear + lockup the AWM spins along at 80 MPH about the same as my ALH 5sp Golf. So it isn't like the BHW will be struggling or off the meaty part of the power hump... but it needs to STAY there on hills or when you accelerate. Even in Tip mode, the current setup will override driver input and downshift. I've tried to find a TCM soft coding that would eliminate that very annoying behavior, but as of yet have been unsuccessful. I really do not want to HAVE to drive the car in Tip mode all the time just to keep the engine from redlining all the time, though. So even if I did do away with ANY TCM gear selection input no matter what, it would still be somewhat lame.
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