camplate vp DE657

JFettig said:

Just put taller gearing in your TDI with a stout bottom end and proper sized compounds, tune in a 3800rpm red line, could be fun!

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Ha ha yep thats about how my tacoma is tuned it has a very aggressive cam plate and 12mm pump head from a cat skid steer .... Don't know the DE number as the pump was a denso unit

mk1-83 said:

a local bosch diesel service centrum..

@ fix_until_broke a pd liftpump feeds at 2000cc/m

Looks like the vane pump + liftpump feeds a lot of fuel

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i've been there, they couldn't get
there's any web store where can search?

Hey thread died? What aabout vane pump and 12mm with rpms over 4200??? I have problem with case pressure and lift pump 0,2 bara 7.21440.51.0 pierburg. I have mounted it beetwen filter and the pump maybe here is the problem?

pd liftpump ? also have you raises the case pressure by the case pressure reliefvalve?

also it very normal that fuel starts to fail in high rpm

I have raise pressure on 028 cylinder head to 14bar. I must cut fuel in high rpm because i have decrease injection timing. Now i have 032 and there is problem with instable timing over 3700.

Anyone out there running or ran this DE657 camplate? Or even a 4mm lift one?

My pump is being rebuilt and I am considering options for more cc output

There is no 4mm camplate for direct injection engine...??

I have found only 2.5 -> 3.3mm lift ones. I know that somebody is selling custom 4mm camplates for IDI engine.

Yucca said:

There is no 4mm camplate for direct injection engine...??
I have found only 2.5 -> 3.3mm lift ones. I know that somebody is selling custom 4mm camplates for IDI engine.

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I think 3.3mm lift is as good as it gets with 12mm pumphead.
My pump was just checked and so far looks like it's still OK after years of use to 5.5k. That's running crap USA D2 with lots of TC-W3 2-stroke oil.

I was going to try bigger camplate but that would really limit rpm. You would not have pump capable of 5k rpm if built that way.

Even smaller pumphead (11mm) and higher lift camplate (4mm) would not be OK for 5-5.5k rpm according to my pump builder.

To quote TDIMeister (Dave) from 3 years ago:

"An aggressive profile with high lift rates increases the acceleration (mm/deg^2) of the reciprocating components, which is further raised by the square of RPM. A larger plunger is also heavier. Force being the product of mass an acceleration (F=m*a), if you increase both mass and acceleration, you increase forces. In addition, a higher piston area has higher hydraulic forces. Both combined, these forces must be counteracted by the springs, which therefore need to before beefier, and the higher forces increase contact pressures between the cam plate and rollers, which can brinell/gall the surfaces.

Lastly, the threshold of cavitation decreases to lower RPM with larger pistons and more aggressive profiles."

my 12mm and de110 camplate revs easly to 5700 rpm only a ps fuelcooler and liftpump no 2 stroke oil. holds just fine.

I got that camplate from a 2.8 tdi looks very nice but never placed.

DE143 + 11mm can handle +6000rpm.

That is best camplate that i know.

2.8TDI camplate have same 3.3mm lift, but i dont think it handles so high rpms.

Yeah I agree.

We need commonrail conversion, that's the way forward if keeping as daily driver

Only other way is doing what Andy did and that is not for the street

Wouldn't it be pretty straightforward to machine pockets in the vane pump centre wheel to at least double the volume of fuel held in each of the four chambers? I'm surprised no one has tried this yet. There's lots of steel to remove without compromising the structure of the pump.

Any 1/4mile times or Dyno charts from Andy?

If MikkoP can drive 11.9s time with full weight Golf variant 4mot (1500kg) running rotary pump. Imagine that daily capable motor in some low weight FWD car...

11.4 @ 122. That's an old time. His new setup is not 100% yet, so maybe faster before the season is out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYYY0VteK1Q

That's a much lighter MK3, but disadvantage with FWD.

Mikko has 4motion, better traction but more weight.

Both probably similar power but VP37 and GTB35 can be daily-driven

Which is the best set up for VP37 pump. My car is with 12mm pump and DE143 camplate. The nozzles are .341 HFLOX and the best time I`ve got is 11,8sec with 185km/h and 1,65-60ft. The max power is 195kW on 4x4 wheels. With the N2O it is about 235kW.
The question is how to upgrade the pump to deliver more fuel. The car is running up to 5500rpm.

Night^Walker said:

Which is the best set up for VP37 pump. My car is with 12mm pump and DE143 camplate. The nozzles are .341 HFLOX and the best time I`ve got is 11,8sec with 185km/h and 1,65-60ft. The max power is 195kW on 4x4 wheels. With the N2O it is about 235kW.
The question is how to upgrade the pump to deliver more fuel. The car is running up to 5500rpm.

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I think you have enough fuel for your setup. Do you have good ported head? Measure your AFR, if you are running rich you need better turbo.

The head is ported and AFR measures are not running rich. This is the problem, while I am using the N2O the power is going down after 4700rpm due to not enough fuel. The case pressure is also adjusted, and we installed additional pump in the tank which deliver 2,5 bars pressure to the pump. We are trying to put to the limit this turbo and after that we will try GTX3076 if the fuel problem is resolved .

What about removing the vane pump altogether? Although this will delete dynamic timing, you will not be limited by the small vane chambers which provide a fixed maximum of fuel.

Are you at max advance and request in software?
If 12mm + DE143 isn't enough and you are willing to have idle problems from loss of dynamic timing control then you need to do an inline pump like Andy. He's running a P3000 with ~250cc output.

Even VP44 would be limited by rpm just like VP37. A modified 12mm P7100 would deliver up to 470cc @ higher rpm than either one. That's more than you need for 500hp. But then, you have no dynamic timing control.

If you still want it to be a street car and you want more than VP37 can give, commonrail is the way. Unfortunately, no one has this figured out yet for the VE!

Night^Walker said:

The head is ported and AFR measures are not running rich. This is the problem, while I am using the N2O the power is going down after 4700rpm due to not enough fuel. The case pressure is also adjusted, and we installed additional pump in the tank which deliver 2,5 bars pressure to the pump. We are trying to put to the limit this turbo and after that we will try GTX3076 if the fuel problem is resolved .

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MikkoP did measure 392bhp (469bhp with NOS) with same de143 camplate and 12mm head. Add more air until AFR 18 and EMP<IMP

Yucca said:

EMP<IMP

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= BIGGER turbo

Yucca said:

MikkoP did measure 392bhp (469bhp with NOS) with same de143 camplate and 12mm head. Add more air until AFR 18 and EMP<IMP

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On what dyno are these 392bhp ???
And about AFR 18:1.......are you sure about the number 18, thats lean than most of the cars on the market today and will be absolutely smoke free )))
No way 1.9tdi with 8v head to run 392 even 300hp without smoke !!! ;-)

Totally smoke free 300bhp is easy, AFR >18.

That 392bhp was measured when AFR was ~15.

Dyno gives right numbers. 2.0TDI CR 170 was measured 169bhp etc...

Yucca said:

Totally smoke free 300bhp is easy, AFR >18.

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On 4cyl VP37 engine ??? No way, show me such car somewhere ?

Yucca said:

Dyno gives right numbers. 2.0TDI CR 170 was measured 169bhp etc...

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Ok but is that a secret what is that dyno ??? Dynojet, MAHA, SuperFlow, or what ???

Yucca said:

Totally smoke free 300bhp is easy, AFR >18.
That 392bhp was measured when AFR was ~15.
Dyno gives right numbers. 2.0TDI CR 170 was measured 169bhp etc...

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Try taking your foot off the dyno's brake

And that last one came from a guy in the UK....

And that last one came from a guy in the UK....

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Heh

loudspl said:

Are you at max advance and request in software?
If 12mm + DE143 isn't enough and you are willing to have idle problems from loss of dynamic timing control then you need to do an inline pump like Andy. He's running a P3000 with ~250cc output.

Even VP44 would be limited by rpm just like VP37. A modified 12mm P7100 would deliver up to 470cc @ higher rpm than either one. That's more than you need for 500hp. But then, you have no dynamic timing control.

If you still want it to be a street car and you want more than VP37 can give, commonrail is the way. Unfortunately, no one has this figured out yet for the VE!

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There are factory 12mm P7100 what can flow more than 600cc (with a little modifications) and it controls dynamic timing 10 degrees at full rack travel.

And you can make new pump sprocket what is controlling dynamic timing, there are lot of engines what uses it.

My friend owns common rail nozzles what fit to VE 1:1 even pressure pump is easily mountable, you have to use some aftermarket ECU. Sorry I don't remember on what car he get it but it was a France car. But I think there are lot of engines now (five years later) what parts can use.

WarmStart said:

There are factory 12mm P7100 what can flow more than 600cc (with a little modifications) and it controls dynamic timing 10 degrees at full rack travel.

And you can make new pump sprocket what is controlling dynamic timing, there are lot of engines what uses it.

My friend owns common rail nozzles what fit to VE 1:1 even pressure pump is easily mountable, you have to use some aftermarket ECU. Sorry I don't remember on what car he get it but it was a France car. But I think there are lot of engines now (five years later) what parts can use.

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Tell me more abaut inline pump that have software controlled dynamic timing? Or dynamic timing at all (without those pump sprocket)?

Sure there is VW Crafter 2.5TDI CR injectors that fit to ALH head PnP. But tell me where i can find big nozzles for those bodies?

I think situation is same as 5 years ago. I still think smokefree 300bhp ALH is quite easy to build. Now we have first rotary pump build over 400bhp but it uses compound turbo setup to do that...

P-pump uses notched plungers to advance timing. At full rack travel notches will close suction ports earlier.
There are some small factories who can make you small batch off nozzles what ever you need. But much cheaper is extrude honing your nozzles.