1z engine injectors

Hello,
I am finally back into this project full bore. 1z engine out of a '97 Passat.
Anyway, the guy I bought it from from claimed that the engine was rebuilt and that it had "high performance injector tips" ...
I wanted to verify the injector tips part of his claim, so I pulled the #1 injector (the one closest to the front of the engine, I am assuming that is #1) and pulled it apart. When I had it in my hands on the bench, I accidentally vomited the parts out of the main body and did not know what order they needed to go back in. To figure this out, I pulled a second injector (second from the front) and carefully laid out the parts as I removed them from both ends of the injector. I am confident in how to put this second injector back together.
Here is what confuses me:

... The injector at the bottom is the one that vomited out all the parts when I turned it downwards. I am reasonably confident that no parts were dropped on the floor or lost with this injector. The injector on the top is the one I laid out very carefully as I took it apart. You can see that the bottom injector has this extra spacer (I placed it between the main body and the taller spring, though I do not know for sure that is where it goes) that the top one does not have. Does this have something to do with it being the number 1 injector, and having that plug on the end rather than a hose going to the next injector? Both injectors have the exact same part number ...
...Help? ???

"high performance injectors"
this guy who sold you this BS knows NOTHING.
the injectors are the exact same on all 1z. the only thing you change out is the nozzle. You took apart an injector for no reason other than you thought you should.

Now on to your question. your looking for the # on the nozzle tip. im sure you did, but if you have not, do a search on how to change nozzles.
We all here have generally the same 2 feelings on this topic.
1, DIY it and move on. Some owners here have had success with a DIY
2 send your full bodies injectors with nozzles to KERMA TDI. they will send you a fresh set with the nozzles swapped for you. the reason you want to do this is that only a hand full of shops in the USA and the EURO have the ability to truly pop test and flow test them. TDI injectors are a 2 stage pop test and when the local shop tells you they can do it, they dont know and or are lying to you.
There have been horror stories about them melting engines when done improperly and i for 1 can attest to it happening on other diesels like a cummins i had where the nozzle got a bit of sand/crud in the plunder and was a DIY, results were a hole though the poston and the sidewall of the engine bore.

Dont freak out. your fine. Put it back together properly and torque it properly if you want them to run but i would not trust it personally as its not balanced and pop tested.

my 2 cents. put it back together, contact kerma and buy a hot swap set from them. seeing as you dont need the puller tool!. its only about $150 extra than doing this yourself and is worth it.

He said high perf TIPS.

Now whether they were properly calibrated when installed is the question.

Those shims set the opening pressure. Maybe the guy who installed the "tips" had them calibrated and the #2 didn't need the shim or maybe he just swapped the nozzles and lost the shim himself. Maybe it was never there. Only a properly equipped shop can tell for sure.

Mongler,

I'm losing faith in you. How can you bad-mouth the previous owner? You don't even know what nozzles are in there. they might be your favorite Bosio nozzles...

Next issue... You can't put a set of injectors back together with a missing shim. The set at the bottom is at least, the correct arrangement. The top injector body might have the missing shim stuck in the top of the injector. We use a small orifice air nozzle to blow out that top shim. If the shim is not in the body, you are done. You cannot use them without a proper sized shim reinstalled. The missing shim is the one that sets the NOP1, or first stage. Without that installed, you get an injector that sprays fuel.

I cannot speak plainly about many issues, but we have names and situations that speak of the value of some injector swaps and what they have done to the engines they were installed into. We have been installing injectors for about 12 years. Although we are maligned by certain competitors, we do know what we are doing and have NEVER melted the pistons out of an engine, like the many disasters we have seen.

If I can be any assistance, feel free to call.

KLXD,

There is no situation that two correctly sized shims are not completely necessary. The only exception is the #3 injector, which the top is actually two shims stacked to get the correct pressure.

Also, the two shims are not interchangable. The top one sets NOP1 and the bottom sets NOP2. They will not be the same thickness except by pure luck. .001" change in shim= 10 bar pressure change or 150 psi.

I thought so but wasn't sure therefore my heavy use of "maybe" and my last sentence.

Since it was the second one he disassembled that was missing the shim I figgered he was savy enough to make sure it wasn't stuck inside.

KLXD,

Yes, the shim is a bit tricky. Sometimes it falls out and sometimes it really sticks. Air pressure always clears the shim. But watch you don't shoot it across the shop!

I think the shim is in there. Otherwise, the injector would run so terribly, he'd have to know something is wrong.

Thank your for the responses! I will be back home this evening to check for that shim once again.

Mongler98 said:

"high performance injectors"
this guy who sold you this BS knows NOTHING.
the injectors are the exact same on all 1z. the only thing you change out is the nozzle. You took apart an injector for no reason other than you thought you should.
Now on to your question. your looking for the # on the nozzle tip. im sure you did, but if you have not, do a search on how to change nozzles.
We all here have generally the same 2 feelings on this topic.
1, DIY it and move on. Some owners here have had success with a DIY
2 send your full bodies injectors with nozzles to KERMA TDI. they will send you a fresh set with the nozzles swapped for you. the reason you want to do this is that only a hand full of shops in the USA and the EURO have the ability to truly pop test and flow test them. TDI injectors are a 2 stage pop test and when the local shop tells you they can do it, they dont know and or are lying to you.
There have been horror stories about them melting engines when done improperly and i for 1 can attest to it happening on other diesels like a cummins i had where the nozzle got a bit of sand/crud in the plunder and was a DIY, results were a hole though the poston and the sidewall of the engine bore.
Dont freak out. your fine. Put it back together properly and torque it properly if you want them to run but i would not trust it personally as its not balanced and pop tested.
my 2 cents. put it back together, contact kerma and buy a hot swap set from them. seeing as you dont need the puller tool!. its only about $150 extra than doing this yourself and is worth it.

Click to expand...

Heh ... He said injector tips, not injectors. He was definitely not a mechanic, he said he had the engine rebuilt about a year before selling me the car. But these are nozzles, got it! This was the whole reason I took it apart in the first place, to see what I had. The engine did run nice and strong, and I put about 300 miles on it as I drove the car home... I figured I would want to know what tips I had on there when it came time for programming, so I figured I would take an injector apart ... That being said, I have never worked on diesel, much less TDI ... I will look up removing nozzles by itself, as I did not do that, I only looked up injector assembly or something like that. Can someone recommend a video?

Franko6 said:

Mongler,
I'm losing faith in you. How can you bad-mouth the previous owner? You don't even know what nozzles are in there. they might be your favorite Bosio nozzles...
Next issue... You can't put a set of injectors back together with a missing shim. The set at the bottom is at least, the correct arrangement. The top injector body might have the missing shim stuck in the top of the injector. We use a small orifice air nozzle to blow out that top shim. If the shim is not in the body, you are done. You cannot use them without a proper sized shim reinstalled. The missing shim is the one that sets the NOP1, or first stage. Without that installed, you get an injector that sprays fuel.
I cannot speak plainly about many issues, but we have names and situations that speak of the value of some injector swaps and what they have done to the engines they were installed into. We have been installing injectors for about 12 years. Although we are maligned by certain competitors, we do know what we are doing and have NEVER melted the pistons out of an engine, like the many disasters we have seen.
If I can be any assistance, feel free to call.

Click to expand...

Okay, I will triple check in there for the shim, trying air as you said. It is admittedly hard to tell what I am looking at way up in the body like that. I will let you guys know this evening probably. And you might just hear from me on the phone! Thanks.

Franko6 said:

KLXD,
There is no situation that two correctly sized shims are not completely necessary. The only exception is the #3 injector, which the top is actually two shims stacked to get the correct pressure.
Also, the two shims are not interchangable. The top one sets NOP1 and the bottom sets NOP2. They will not be the same thickness except by pure luck. .001" change in shim= 10 bar pressure change or 150 psi.

Click to expand...

...and now I am worried again. I can only say that I am "pretty sure" that the bottom set has the two shims not mixed up, but not 100% sure. I guess I will be able to tell if the engine is not running right when it goes back together?

Franko6 said:

KLXD,
Yes, the shim is a bit tricky. Sometimes it falls out and sometimes it really sticks. Air pressure always clears the shim. But watch you don't shoot it across the shop!
I think the shim is in there. Otherwise, the injector would run so terribly, he'd have to know something is wrong.

Click to expand...

This is good to know. I checked all over the floor and everywhere, but was pretty damn sure that it did not fall out, as this injector is the one I was very careful to lay out nice and neat.

That did it! Blew it out with a needle nozzle thing I use for filling up balls and it got it right out. Fantastic! Now to identify one of these nozzles...

Ahah! So, it's as I suspected. The shim was in there and stuck. Good for you.

Now, that doesn't mean they are necessarily set correctly, but at least you know from the previous installer, which shim went in first.

If it comes down to it and the injector nozzles are in good shape, we can reshim for correct pop pressures. We usually find the values can be improved upon after a few thousand miles of operation. In spite of one theory, the needles have an interference angle to the seats and it takes a while for the needle to break in to the seat. So, if you find the balance changes between injectors, that would not be uncommon. Also, if you find, for example the #2 and #4 injector vary quite a bit, swap their locations. If the variation follows the injector, fix the injector. If it follows the cylinder, well, figure out what is wrong with the cylinder; low compression, cam wear, leaking valves, blown head gasket...

I will be interested in your reassembly. Why are you keeping us in suspense? What nozzles are you working with?

So to get the injector nozzles off, I must first remove the copper washer on the end. I am seeing one article that says to gently turn it with a pair of pliers. I suppose I can try that, maybe some layers of paper towel in between. I will get some penetrating oil on there first. I don't want to mess up the seal, though it seems they are cheap, they may not be available in my small town auto parts store. I would have to drive a bit or wait for shipping. Am I wasting my time worrying about these things?

As for the project, it is a diesel conversion on a '95 Suzuki Sidekick. I got the engine out of a '97 passat. The car was an absolute pile, but the engine ran really strong for the 300 mile trip back home, so I am going to just clean it up and install. If I have injector issues, they are easy enough to R&R, almost like spark plugs.

Okay, now I know what I'm working with... They are definitely aftermarket, specifically "BSLA 150 P 520" nozzles, so Bosio as mentioned above. I guess oooo and aaaaah. Made in Italy even! The plan is to get this thing on the road, find some rich dude, spit on his Ferarri, race him for pinks, finally quit my job and sell used Ferarri's every other weekend. This is gonna work!

Ok, so now we know what nozzles you got. We have installed a couple of sets of those and I can actually say they worked ok. They are not a 'big' nozzle. Don't get too excited about the 'made in Italy'. It's not like you are working with Ferrari (sp), but almost. The joke is, don't buy a Monday or Friday car. Can't tell you about how nozzles run, but it appears to be the same thing. We prefer Bosch and Firad, but can't always get the sizes we want.

We had some issues with Bosio, but honestly, that's been 7 years ago. Eight sets of Bosio 764 nozzles that were total junk. Bosio may have changed but knowing them, they will change again. That's the problem.

Now, my fair warning is that injectors that are not balanced to run together, especially when built for power, have a bad habit of either melting out one or more pistons or cracking the piston down the middle.

Once you do get your injectors back together, don't depend on EGT's or 'feel'. Check idle balance, block 13, and liter per hour, block 15 and of course, do not advance the timing, as that makes EGT's climb.

It seems you want to reuse the injector crush washers. They can be reused to a degree. You might do that for testing, but if you do, anneal the washers, as they have been crushed and are hardened by the crush. To anneal copper, place them on a piece of baling wire and heat till red-hot. Quench in cold water. It's the reverse of steel.

Don't worry about some little dents on seals from vise grips. Use a really small set with round jaws... do it all the time. It's more important that the seal area is clean than the seal is absolutely perfect.

I slept on that one, and am thinking I will just buy a new set of seals, as they are maybe a buck each and will provide piece of mind.

...I guess block 13 and block 15 are things that are items I would see on VCDS or VAG-COM readouts? I have never done this before so please bear with me... I have been looking at this stuff and am seeing another option called ODBEleven... Do you have any opinions on that? Obviously I am only going to need under the hood features, and not stuff that allows programming of peripheral stuff like brakes and headlights. As I live up a rocky dirt road, forty miles from work, this vehicle is meant to be my daily driver, to replace my '98 Civic (which is now comically banged on it's underside). Maybe I'll only work on it on Wednesdays. While I may try some programming, I am mainly interested in the reliability and longevity of this engine. MPG comes in a close second, and performance a distant third...

aPpYe said:

Okay, now I know what I'm working with... They are definitely aftermarket, specifically "BSLA 150 P 520" nozzles, so Bosio as mentioned above. I guess oooo and aaaaah. Made in Italy even! The plan is to get this thing on the road, find some rich dude, spit on his Ferarri, race him for pinks, finally quit my job and sell used Ferarri's every other weekend. This is gonna work!

Click to expand...

HAHA, you wish.

If you end up being dead in the water missing that shim, send me a private message. I've got a few sets of mk4 bodies laying around

And Mongler, this isnt 2001 anymore. Any reputable diesel shop has the equipment to pop test, and set both pilot and main injection stages these days.

Okay, so i got them both assembled, hand tight. What torque do I want these at? Both the nozzle itself and the fork things that hold them in the head...

have you looked up the nozzle procedure, its all listed in there. please read over this, and for the love of god, keep the area clean like a hospital that your doing this.
http://www.myturbodiesel.com/wiki/tdi-nozzle-upgrade-fuel-injector-faq/

http://www.myturbodiesel.com/wiki/tdi-fuel-injector-nozzle-upgrade-replacement-diy/

A good trick i figured out to get the seat on the head cleaned up is to take a 9mm or 10mm nut driver screwdriver style tool and glue on a piece of 120 grit sand paper to it and put it down there and rotate with light amount of force, and then keep replacing the sandpaper disk you made for it a few times, put a wad of TOILET paper into where the nozzle goes into the keep the crap from falling into it, then take a vacuum cleaner or shop van with the hose attachment and suck it out when your done, the reason for the TP is that if it does fall in or is stuck after you vacuum the sanding bits out, you can shove it in and will not harm the engine.