Electric vehicles (EVs), their emissions, and future viability

VeeDubTDI said:

Unfortunately, a lot of people in that region think they've already experienced extreme weather ("we've been through plenty of hurricanes") and are skeptical of the possibility that more extreme weather than their life experiences have shown them could happen in the future.

It doesn't help that state and federal leadership downplay the frequency of catastrophic weather events, making it seem less urgent for people to prepare for the worst.

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Not sure that the governor of Puerto Rico downplayed anything when he told the residents to evacuate or prepare to die.

Being a Midwesterner, the biggest issue I see is the continual news coverage of where the tropical depression coming off the coast of Africa is going to go, how big it's going to get, and how much damage it's going to cause over two weeks out. This year is a prime example of them not having a clue what nature is going to do.

kjclow said:

This year is a prime example of them not having a clue what nature is going to do.

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They can't pin point exactly what's going to happen... but when Irma was where Maria is now Florida was evacuating. Very few people in Florida are concerned about Maria... Meteorologists are doing a much better job than you give them credit for.

VeeDubTDI said:

I haven't really found any (what I consider to be) reasonably priced e-Golfs. Availability is low and prices are very high compared to similar EVs (Nissan LEAFs, used 500es, even some new Chevy Bolts (comparing new to new). keep your eye out though; the e-Golf is a good car and you get very nice VW driving dynamics.

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I have noticed the used prices have ticked up in recent months for eGolfs. That said I looked at and don't like the FUGLY styling of the Fiat or more so the Leaf.

We have a Leaf here on our lot and I took it for a spin - not impressed. Not a fan of Nissan interior switch gear and displays in general and Leaf builds on that. Up close look at the outside confirmed previous opinions on the design. That said the new Leaf looks A LOT better from the outside. I'll reserve judgement upon seeing the inside.

I might check out a Fiat just so I have a fair comparison.

Jason

nwdiver said:

The aftermath is where EV+PV really shines... with the grid down and fuel scarce the ability to be energy independent adds to resiliency.

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Resiliency? How so?

In the event of a power failure, what actually happens with most grid-tied PV systems, is that the inverters shut down too. It's a code requirement to protect power company technicians that are working to restore the grid during a power failure.

When the grid goes down, my house and its 9.2 kW of PV goes as dark as everyone else's.

Oilerlord said:

Resiliency? How so?
In the event of a power failure, what actually happens with most grid-tied PV systems, is that the inverters shut down too. It's a code requirement to protect power company technicians that are working to restore the grid during a power failure.
When the grid goes down, my house and its 9.2 kW of PV goes as dark as everyone else's.

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That's changing... I can use my grid-tied PV system off-grid with AC coupling. The new SMA inverters can supply up to 2kW with secure power supply. Solar Edge inverters can be designed to keep a critical panel energized w/o the grid.

The weak link that made systems that can operate off-grid cost prohibitive was the battery. Battery costs are falling and the SMA secure power supply innovation can work without batteries (during the day of course)

I with a full tank of diesel, I could drive my Golf from Key West nearly to Atlanta without stopping, what is your point?

I suppose you could carry enough PV units with you to charge the battery all day on the side of the road, drive for a bit during the night, and do it all over again the next day.

That's what happened in The Martian

If the power grid goes down, it is not good for anyone that relies on it. And point of use power generation is not going to help much if you have to evacuate for some reason like a hurricane.

Not to mention I would think PV panels would be one of the first victim's of Mother Earth's fury in a storm anyway.

oilhammer said:

I with a full tank of diesel, I could drive my Golf from Key West nearly to Atlanta without stopping, what is your point?
I suppose you could carry enough PV units with you to charge the battery all day on the side of the road, drive for a bit during the night, and do it all over again the next day.
That's what happened in The Martian
If the power grid goes down, it is not good for anyone that relies on it. And point of use power generation is not going to help much if you have to evacuate for some reason like a hurricane.
Not to mention I would think PV panels would be one of the first victim's of Mother Earth's fury in a storm anyway.

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The point was that the power didn't go out until the storm actually hit, while gas supplies were dwindling several days before the storm hit.

There was a flyover video of one of the Caribbean islands and it was interesting to see just how many solar panels survived the destruction. Of course there were some that were damaged, but overall it was very minor compared to the rest of the destruction. Of course, I suppose it all depends on how a system is installed. There are a lot of areas that require certain wind ratings for solar installations, but a DIY system might not be as robust.

There also an interesting story about a Florida Fiat 500e owner who used his car to power a 120 volt inverter to run his refrigerator, some lights and a fan. His office had power but his home didn't for several days after the storm. He drove to work, charged, and brought that power back home to run his fridge in the evenings. Even with the small 24 kWh battery, he was able to run his critical appliances all night and still have 40% battery remaining in the morning to make his commute to work.

I used the Prius PiP I owned at the time and an inverter to power a freezer, refrigerator, sump pump and the internet during Sandy. When I pick up an EV, I'm going to use it for power failures, too.

Some parts of Puerto Rico are projected to be without power for MONTHS. Even if you could somehow get enough gas or diesel to keep your generator running that's going to be incredibly expensive. With a roof full of PV and a car that can use the energy that would be one less thing to struggle with as people recover. Just 8 solar panels would be like having a gallon of gasoline delivered everyday.

The point isn't that you can travel around like Mark Watney but that you would have a source of energy at your home. Even if the grid and gasoline is unavailable for weeks or possibly months.

nwdiver said:

Some parts of Puerto Rico are projected to be without power for MONTHS. Even if you could somehow get enough gas or diesel to keep your generator running that's going to be incredibly expensive. With a roof full of PV and a car that can use the energy that would be one less thing to struggle with as people recover. Just 8 solar panels would be like having a gallon of gasoline delivered everyday.

The point isn't that you can travel around like Mark Watney but that you would have a source of energy at your home. Even if the grid and gasoline is unavailable for weeks or possibly months.

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There are no active fuels refineries in PR either, so gasoline and D2 will be hard to get as it is all imported.

aja8888 said:

There are no active fuels refineries in PR either, so gasoline and D2 will be hard to get as it is all imported.

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And (according to an official in PR on NPR this morning) PR has no international ports of call, so anything truly imported from outside the USA has to first go through the nearest port of call and go through customs, and that is in Miami. Even if the ship is passing within sight of PR. Still has to go to Miami.

So shipping fuel from the Gulf Coast of the US is affected by that exactly how again? It's not like PR gets offshore crude oil after all, just refined product . . .

tadawson said:

It's not like PR gets offshore crude oil after all, just refined product . . .

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Correct, PR has no active refineries. The ones that were there have pretty much rusted into the ground or the unit internals fell in. I worked at the Phillips refinery in Guayama for a spell trying to get it sold as a chem. plant, but, alas, the refinery units were gone. Feedstock was not crude, but naphta (imported).

PR is a mess for the foreseeable future. And unemployment is skyrocketing. No Tesla's there!

tadawson said:

So shipping fuel from the Gulf Coast of the US is affected by that exactly how again? It's not like PR gets offshore crude oil after all, just refined product . . .

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Was adding to the conversation, was not specifically referring to refined petroleum products in general. Sorry I was not clearer. Just found it a bad situation when ships carrying items that may very well be destined for PR are passing right past them. Although I would think most urgently needed items would come from the continental US anyway. Toilet paper, bottled water, soap, food, diapers, clothes, etc. But just imagine for a moment that EVERYTHING in a local store like a Lowe's was suddenly GONE. And then think of all the items in that store that are NOT manufactured in the USA, and there are lots of them. Now imagine that all those imported items are on ships that have either gone through the Panama Canal (from southeast Asia, China mostly of course) or bigger ships that had to go around South America. Or any coming from Europe. They are all passing right by or very near PR. So that shovel that was made in China now takes three extra days to get to someone in PR. That was what the official used as an example.

nwdiver said:

That's changing... I can use my grid-tied PV system off-grid with AC coupling. The new SMA inverters can supply up to 2kW with secure power supply. Solar Edge inverters can be designed to keep a critical panel energized w/o the grid.

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"That's changing".

Answered exactly like a SolarCity sleazeball backpedaling to the homeowner about their PV's "resiliency" after the first major storm knocked out grid power.

Level with people. PV is already awesome. No need for half-truths.

Oilerlord said:

"That's changing".
Answered exactly like a SolarCity sleazeball backpedaling to the homeowner about their PV's "resiliency" after the first major storm knocked out grid power.
Level with people. PV is already awesome. No need for half-truths.

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Maybe its because its been along day but huh?

I wouldn't call his comments half-truths. The technology is constantly changing and improving, and that's great. In fact, that information could be very useful for someone looking to do a solar installation that has some functionality during a disruption of grid power. Instead of having to install battery storage (which really isn't a terrible idea), they can buy an inverter that can supply a small amount of power when the sun is shining. I know I'll be looking into those inverters.

Oilerlord said:

"That's changing".
Answered exactly like a SolarCity sleazeball backpedaling to the homeowner about their PV's "resiliency" after the first major storm knocked out grid power.
Level with people. PV is already awesome. No need for half-truths.

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Very classy.... any-who...

Not really 'backpedaling' but I did misspeak. I suppose saying that's 'changed' would have been more accurate since everything I mentioned is available NOW.

My personal favorite is the SPS from SMA. No batteries required. Every SMA string inverter <9kW (which is almost all residential inverters) can provide ~2kW off-grid. And they're actually cheaper than the previous generation. I paid ~$3k for a 7.7kW inverter that couldn't do anything on it's own w/o the grid ~4 years ago. The current version is ~$2k with SPS.

AC coupling is also new tech that has 'changed'. The great thing about AC coupling is it can be retrofitted to ANY grid-tie system to enable it to work off-grid. You can use your grid-tie inverter without the grid.

Sorta off topic, but PV usability varies by location (sun angle and individual lot). I'm at 43 degrees north and live in an oak forest. I have zero sun and the canopy is so high and dense I don't even know a 30 mph wind is blowing.

43° N isn't a problem, I'm at 44° N and get lots of sunlight. The forest canopy is a hurdle. I've got acorns dropping on my roof as I write this, so I can sympathize. Trees aren't all bad though- some nice shade trees pretty much eliminate the need/want for a.c. in my area.

nwdiver said:

My personal favorite is the SPS from SMA. No batteries required. Every SMA string inverter <9kW (which is almost all residential inverters) can provide ~2kW off-grid. And they're actually cheaper than the previous generation. I paid ~$3k for a 7.7kW inverter that couldn't do anything on it's own w/o the grid ~4 years ago. The current version is ~$2k with SPS.

AC coupling is also new tech that has 'changed'. The great thing about AC coupling is it can be retrofitted to ANY grid-tie system to enable it to work off-grid. You can use your grid-tie inverter without the grid.

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Another half-truth. Yes, a Sunny-Boy SB7.7-1SP-US-40 does have an outlet that has the ability to supply those 2000 watts, but what you don't mention is that it's only useful when the sun is shining.

Again, the point you made was about PV's "resiliency" when grid power goes out. When is the last time a hurricane happened on a nice & pleasant sunny day? In the absence of solar energy, batteries ARE required.

AC coupling adds complexity & high cost. It ain't happening for $2K.

Most installed PV systems:



AC coupled system:



In terms of disaster planning for a grid outage, sometimes the simple solution is the best solution. Anyone can pick up a Honda 5.5kW generator for <$2000 that can power their entire house. No PV or sunshine required.

Oilerlord said:

Another half-truth. Yes, a Sunny-Boy SB7.7-1SP-US-40 does have an outlet that has the ability to supply those 2000 watts, but what you don't mention is that it's only useful when the sun is shining.

Again, the point you made was about PV's "resiliency" when grid power goes out. When is the last time a hurricane happened on a nice & pleasant sunny day? In the absence of solar energy, batteries ARE required.

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??? How exactly was that a 'half-truth'? How would you have phrased it more accurately?

nwdiver said:

..... the SMA secure power supply innovation can work without batteries (during the day of course)

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Yes... my point was that PV adds 'resiliency' when the grid is down. Of the two... sunshine or gasoline... which does PR currently have more in abundance? The hurricane is over... many people won't have power for months.

Yes... until recently it was cost prohibitive to get a PV system that could offer anything without the grid. That's changed.

Oilerlord said:

AC coupled system:

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That's one way to do it... another is to use the off-grid inverter just like some people use generators to power-up their house; Open the main breaker and plug the inverter into the dryer outlet. No second panel. No added complexity. But no automatic backup either. My AC coupled system cost ~$3k.

nwdiver said:

Of the two... sunshine or gasoline... which does PR currently have more in abundance? The hurricane is over... many people won't have power for months.

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Of the two, PV modules on the roof or a gasoline generator in the basement with an emergency supply of gasoline...which one would have survived that hurricane in PR?

Of the two, a $30,000 battery-backed up, AC coupled PV system or a $300 gas generator...which one do you think the average resident in PR can afford?

Oilerlord said:

Of the two, PV modules on the roof or a gasoline generator in the basement with an emergency supply of gasoline...which one would have survived that hurricane in PR?
Of the two, a $30,000 battery-backed up, AC coupled PV system or a $300 gas generator...which one do you think the average resident in PR can afford?

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If the roof survives the solar panels will survive. If the roof goes so does the generator in the basement.

I'm not proposing buying a $30k PV system for backup. My point is that 'energy resiliency' is another reason to buy a $30k PV system that pays for itself anyway... but you already knew that...

Oilerlord said:

Level with people. PV is already awesome. No need for half-truths.

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How about taking your own advice... how much good is a generator w/o gas?

Looks like those folks didn't prepare in advance.

My generator in our Houston home is fired with pipeline natural gas......and it did the job last month. That's the standard hook up here if one is serious about having power during hurricanes. Or just go north and do some hotel time.

nwdiver said:

That's one way to do it... another is to use the off-grid inverter just like some people use generators to power-up their house; Open the main breaker and plug the inverter into the dryer outlet. No second panel. No added complexity. But no automatic backup either. My AC coupled system cost ~$3k.

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That's a great idea, never thought about that.

Slightly side stepping, anyone have a link to some good, flexible, reasonably priced solar panels? I want to get some for my Toy Hauler to keep my battery's topped up.

aja8888 said:

Looks like those folks didn't prepare in advance.
My generator in our Houston home is fired with pipeline natural gas......and it did the job last month.

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I don't think that's an option in PR

turbovan+tdi said:

Slightly side stepping, anyone have a link to some good, flexible, reasonably priced solar panels? I want to get some for my Toy Hauler to keep my battery's topped up.

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For portability if you want 100w or more I'd go with this...

This is a bit cheaper but not at as portable...

If you want >500w it would probably be worth the investment of getting a MPPT vs a PWM charge controller.

nwdiver said:

I don't think that's an option in PR
For portability if you want 100w or more I'd go with this...
This is a bit cheaper but not at as portable...
If you want >500w it would probably be worth the investment of getting a MPPT vs a PWM charge controller.

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Thanks, I'll check those out. I don't need more than 500 watt's, or at least I don't think I do. Its just to top up the battery's during the day when camping without hookups. I have 2 110 amp/hr agm deep cycle battery's, only used for lights, tv at night for a movie and the furnace fan.

oilhammer said:

Was adding to the conversation, was not specifically referring to refined petroleum products in general. Sorry I was not clearer. Just found it a bad situation when ships carrying items that may very well be destined for PR are passing right past them. Although I would think most urgently needed items would come from the continental US anyway. Toilet paper, bottled water, soap, food, diapers, clothes, etc. But just imagine for a moment that EVERYTHING in a local store like a Lowe's was suddenly GONE. And then think of all the items in that store that are NOT manufactured in the USA, and there are lots of them. Now imagine that all those imported items are on ships that have either gone through the Panama Canal (from southeast Asia, China mostly of course) or bigger ships that had to go around South America. Or any coming from Europe. They are all passing right by or very near PR. So that shovel that was made in China now takes three extra days to get to someone in PR. That was what the official used as an example.

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Add to it the fact that Foreign ships cannot travel between two US ports.

This is a big complaint by the people of Hawaii too. All ships from Asia cannot partially unload in Hawaii before heading to the West Coast. So most of the time, the ships go California, fully unload, then the goods bound for Hawaii are put on a different ship designated just for the island. Talk about resource consumption.

And considering Hawaii is the most remote place on Earth, it already takes a lot to keep the place going as is. The laws don’t help.