NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

JSWTDI09

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 31, 2009
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada
TDI
2009 JSW TDI (gone but not forgotten)
So what is the verdict on additives? I use Power Service after every fill up. When I get my 2012, I will double the dose. Lubricity, right?
There really is no verdict. Many people believe that fuel lubricity is one factor, but there is no proof that it is the only factor. Many of us use a lubricity additive as "insurance", but we really do not know how much good it really does. Most (but not all) non-misfuel HPFP failures are in cars that did not use additives - but that is not proof of anything. Increasing lubricity should do no harm, but we really do not know how much of the problem is fuel and how much is pump design or other factors. We hope we will learn more as time goes on.

Have Fun!

Don
 

dweisel

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 28, 2006
Location
Wheeling, West Virginia
TDI
dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
Did you have to pay out of pocket to fix the HPFP, or did VW cover it?
I currently own a 98 NB tdi and a 05 Passat wagon tdi. After my hpfp issue with my 09 JSW (36K miles)-I traded it because my wife refused to ever leave town in it again. Until VW solves this problem-I will not purchase another and I recommend same.

As upsbroke stated. After having a failure its hard to have any real confidence in the car once the hpfp has failed on you. I did the same and traded both our 09's.So, I feel the same as upsbroke. Can't recommend one and will not purchase another tdi CR until this problem is completely resolved. With the recent failure of a 2012 Golf.........................evidently the problem isn't fixed yet.
 

Niner

duplicate account, banned
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Does anyone have any information on how NHSTA's Engineering Review of the HPFP turned out, or is it still a work in progress?
 

Claudio

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2009
Location
IL
TDI
09 Jetta SW
since there aren't any official updates by NHSTA i guess they are still working on it
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
I looked at hte NHSTA website the other day and it still says that it's open.
 

oxford_guy

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2011
Location
Ohio
TDI
Golf '11
Many people believe that fuel lubricity is one factor, but there is no proof that it is the only factor. Many of us use a lubricity additive as "insurance", but we really do not know how much good it really does. Most (but not all) non-misfuel HPFP failures are in cars that did not use additives - but that is not proof of anything.
I wonder about the BMW gasoline HPFP failures. Does anyone have any concrete information about those, to determine whether or not lubricity is much of a factor?
 

JSWTDI09

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 31, 2009
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada
TDI
2009 JSW TDI (gone but not forgotten)
I wonder about the BMW gasoline HPFP failures. Does anyone have any concrete information about those, to determine whether or not lubricity is much of a factor?
Gasoline has almost no lubricity. Therefore, a fuel pump for gasoline does not (can not) depend on the fuel's lubricity for lubrication. I know nothing about BMW's pump, but it has to be a different design and/or different materials. Comparing a diesel pump with a gasoline pump is really comparing apples to oranges. Diesel fuel is an oil while gasoline comes a lot closer to being a solvent (this is not completely correct, technically, but it comes close). However, there is one common factor - any high pressure pump (whether it is pumping fuel or fruit cocktail) puts strain on the design and the parts. The question is about how well it is designed to handle that strain.

Have Fun!

Don
 

tditom

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 5, 2001
Location
Jackson, MI
TDI
formerly: 2001 Golf GL, '97 Passat (RIP) '98 NB, '05 B5 sedan
As I understand it, the BMW gasser HPFP had problems with ethanol compatibility.
 

oxford_guy

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2011
Location
Ohio
TDI
Golf '11
Gasoline has almost no lubricity. Therefore, a fuel pump for gasoline does not (can not) depend on the fuel's lubricity for lubrication.
Someone here wrote that a gasoline engine that runs out of fuel will get premature wear due to a lack of lubricity from the lack of fuel. So, even if there is very little lubricity in gasoline, I wondered if it's possibly a factor at all.

Also, that gasoline has very little lubricity supports the idea of looking at the TDI HPFP failures from an angle other than lubricity (at least briefly). The design and the fuel may be very different, but is there a commonality (or more than one) that could be the problem (at least to some degree)?
However, there is one common factor - any high pressure pump (whether it is pumping fuel or fruit cocktail) puts strain on the design and the parts. The question is about how well it is designed to handle that strain.
Yes, and part of that could be related to design commonalities, despite the differences. I know very little about fuel pumps, although I do know a bit about the chemical differences between the fuel types from my small background in Chem. I just wanted to throw this out there to see if there is anything that might be gained by looking at the problem from this angle.

If ethanol was the problem for BMW, that's interesting. Some diesel additives have alcohols like butanol in them. Power Service's 9-11 additive contains two forms of it. Could ethanol have eaten away at a chemical coating? Could pump fuel have alcohol additives that are causing problems?
 
Last edited:

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
My understanding is that gasoline fuel system wear due to running out of fuel isn't due to lubricity, but rather cooling - an excessively hot fuel system will suffer similar problems to a fuel system with insufficient lubricity.

Also, gasser HPFPs tend to be designed to have an engine oil lubricated component, and injection pressures on a DI gasser are an order of magnitude lower than modern CR diesel systems. So, it really is comparing apples and hand grenades.

Power Service's 911 additive isn't meant for regular use, FWIW - it's meant for emergency use, when getting the fuel ungelled is more important than any fuel system damage that can result from the alcohols in it.
 

oxford_guy

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2011
Location
Ohio
TDI
Golf '11
Power Service's 911 additive isn't meant for regular use, FWIW - it's meant for emergency use, when getting the fuel ungelled is more important than any fuel system damage that can result from the alcohols in it.
What about pump fuel? As far as I know, plain ULSD has to have some sort of additive package put in to get it to at least 520 wear scar (as well as other characteristics, such as cold weather stuff). May one or more of these proprietary additive packages contain an alcohol that could be working against the lifespan of the HPFP in a manner similar to the effect of ethanol of the BMW gasoline pump?
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
IIRC from the Spicer report the 520 wear scar determination was on raw diesel straight from the refinery. As far as solvency, butanol and ethanol are very poor solvents compared to gasoline. To make it clearer, think about pouring butanol or ethanol on your coffee table, such as spilling your mixed drink. Nothing happens. Now, take it outside and pour gasoline on it. The varnish or lacquer will start to lift and dissolve in a matter of seconds.
 

tditom

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 5, 2001
Location
Jackson, MI
TDI
formerly: 2001 Golf GL, '97 Passat (RIP) '98 NB, '05 B5 sedan
IIRC from the Spicer report the 520 wear scar determination was on raw diesel straight from the refinery...
No- the ASTM spec of 520 micron maximum wear scar is on the fuel coming out of the retail pump. Refinery ULSD has no hope of meeting this standard. They don't add the lubricity at the refinery because they don't want to contaminate the pipelines that transport other fuels. Therefore the lubricity additive is applied to the fuel at the loading rack when it goes into the delivery truck.
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
To make it clearer, think about pouring butanol or ethanol on your coffee table, such as spilling your mixed drink. Nothing happens. Now, take it outside and pour gasoline on it. The varnish or lacquer will start to lift and dissolve in a matter of seconds.
However, some materials are more reactive to ethanol than to gasoline, and the ethanol will eat them, whereas the gasoline won't.
 

Conan

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2010
Location
Denver
TDI
2003 GLS TDI
I wouldn't go around spilling alcohol on any real varnish. I don't know much about furniture, but I do know a little about musical instruments. High end ones are finished in spirit varnish, which is basically shellac (dead bugs?) dissolved in ethanol. The alky evaporates away, leaving varnish.

TDI content: No, New Beetles are never harmed in the creation of varnish.
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
Shellac is bug spit not dead bodies. Yep, forgot about shellac dissolving in ethanol. Although, shellac is not widely used in finer furniture. Too expensive, hard to work with, and doesn't stand up to harsh treatment compared to varnishes and lacquers.
 

Niner

duplicate account, banned
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Does anyone have any input or information on the escalation to engineering review of the HPFP, and the findings? When will they be made public?
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
However, it actually could be.

First off, if the line is resonating, it could be sending pressure waves BACKWARDS in the fuel to the HPFP.

Second, if the line is failing, especially if the claims of improper machining on some #2 fuel lines are true, then maybe that's where some metal particles are coming from.
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
No, this recall is only for injector line#2 and covers build dates for:
JSW and jettas 5/08-9/11
Golf 5/09-9/11
A3 9/09-9/11

From VIN listed, it doesn't look like either one of mine are effected.
 
Last edited:

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
Where did you find VIN numbers?
I have an alert set up on the NHTSA site to email me if any of my cars are in a recall. Here's their email but not sure if that link will work, so added the actual webpage below it. You'll have to click on the documnet search button and then open the Defect Notice for the VIN listing.

Please click on the following NHTSA Campaign ID links to view the recall information.

NHTSA Campaign ID Number :11V490Manufacturer :VOLKSWAGEN OF AMERICA, INCMake / Model Years :AUDI / 2010-2012
VOLKSWAGEN / 2009-2012Subject : DIESEL FUEL INJECTION LINES
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/recall...rchtype=quicksearch&summary=true&refurl=email
 

MPBsr

Veteran Member
Joined
May 31, 2009
Location
NJ
TDI
2009 TDI....Traded in
Ok, I'm a little confused by looking at the letter.

Why are there blank spaces in the VIN's?

Also, can someone confirm that mine isn't part of the recall since it has a build date of March 2009?

VIN: 3VWRL71K89M150128

Thanks
 
Last edited:
Top