NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

thebigarniedog

Master of the Obvious
Joined
Oct 14, 2007
Location
Fail Command (Central Ohio)
TDI
1998 Jetta tdi
I'd love to see a list of all the station wagons that use gas engines and get 40+ mpg on the highway...please feel free to share!

This thread is not title restricted to the Jetta Station Wagon. BhTooefr already answered your question on vehicle size and mileage. To expound, when you survey the road and see most cars with one occupant, you realize that a 40 mpg plus gasser more then fits the bill 95% of the time. Now, if you are running to the store to buy groceries, the Jetta station wagon could be a better fit ......

The CR Tdi is VW's reaction to tighter emission regulations that selectively measure a vehicles emissions from the pump to the car, as opposed to from the ground to the car. The tighter tolerances are necessary for a 50 state legal tdi. As a result, the tdi has taken a mpg hit (compared to prior versions). The EPA test is spot on. Those that still clamor that it is wrong selectively ignore the Fuelly's that seem to show high 30mpg in a significant number of member's signatures .....
 

scdevon

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2011
Location
USA
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None
I'd love to see a list of all the station wagons that use gas engines and get 40+ mpg on the highway...please feel free to share!
Not everyone who drives a VW drives a wagon or wants to drive a wagon.
 

TornadoRed

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Aug 3, 2003
Location
West Des Moines (formerly St Paul)
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI wagon, silver; 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, indigo blue; 2003 Golf GL 5-spd, red (PARTED); 2003 Golf GLS 5-spd, indigo blue (SOLD); 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, Candy White (SOLD)
You can go to: http://www.kabc.com/Article.asp?id=651431

On the right side of the page, you will see "Podcasting". Go down and select "Leon Motorman on demand". Today's show is not up as of yet but, I guess it will be available in the near future. You will notice Jan. 30 is the latest podcast and it is listed 3 times. It's a 3 hour show and it allows you to listen to each hour of the show seperately. I think my participation takes place in th beginning of the 3rd hour and possibly even to end of the second hour. Leon introduces me by my first name, "Leonard". I was a bit nervous but, I think I got the point across pretty good. My tech was listening and told me it was great. ;) Later!
http://www.kabc.com/sectional.asp?id=12454 then go to the Feb 13 date and the 10 AM hour. Leonard's call starts at about 4:15 and runs about 4 minutes.
 

timwagon

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2010
Location
Hauppauge, NY
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2010 Jetta Sportwagen Stick
Not everyone who drives a VW drives a wagon or wants to drive a wagon.
Agreed.

My point was that the JSW TDI MPG far exceeds that of any currently available alternatives.

When it comes to a high-mpg wagon, it's pretty much the only game in town, at least until the Prius wagon comes out later this year.
 

Harvieux

Vendor , w/Business number
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Location
Whittier,CA-USA
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06 A5 Pkg.2 w/navi & ASEP
Here's the direct link to the podcast to where all you need to do is slide the slider button at or close to the 4:15 point in the show.

http://www.kabc.com/FlashPlayer/default.asp?SPID=12454&ID=2114720

I wanted to go on and on with Leon just like I did when I was on the nationally syndicated Mark Levin show back on Jan 05, 2011 go to: http://podfuse-dl.andomedia.com/800...tadel_origin/pods/marklevin/Levin01052011.mp3

Slide the slider to the right about 3/4 and I will eventually come on. It was very interesting because when I first got on with Mark's call screener and told him what I wanted to ask Mark, he said hold on, I will get you right on the air. I came on just two calls after Mark returns from commercial break and the 1st caller from Maryland was on hold for 2 hours prior. My topic was that important to both the screener and Mark and therefore I was rushed on the air. Enjoy! Later!
 

El Dobro

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Location
NJ
TDI
2017 Bolt EV Premier, 2023 Bolt EUV Premier
Here's the direct link to the podcast to where all you need to do is slide the slider button at or close to the 4:15 point in the show.

http://www.kabc.com/FlashPlayer/default.asp?SPID=12454&ID=2114720

I wanted to go on and on with Leon just like I did when I was on the nationally syndicated Mark Levin show back on Jan 05, 2011 go to: http://podfuse-dl.andomedia.com/800...tadel_origin/pods/marklevin/Levin01052011.mp3

Slide the slider to the right about 3/4 and I will eventually come on. It was very interesting because when I first got on with Mark's call screener and told him what I wanted to ask Mark, he said hold on, I will get you right on the air. I came on just two calls after Mark returns from commercial break and the 1st caller from Maryland was on hold for 2 hours prior. My topic was that important to both the screener and Mark and therefore I was rushed on the air. Enjoy! Later!
You should attach the links in e-mails to VWoA and VAG. That should open their eyes.
 

El Dobro

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
NJ
TDI
2017 Bolt EV Premier, 2023 Bolt EUV Premier
any HPFP issues reported in Mexico?

fwiw, how much to replace a malfunctioning battery in a prius?
A lot less than replacing the fuel system. You can pick up rebuilt Prius batteries now.
 

flylow2

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2010
Location
Hillsborough, NJ
TDI
2010 White Gold JSW TDI 6M (build date 23Feb10)
The EPA test is spot on. Those that still clamor that it is wrong selectively ignore the Fuelly's that seem to show high 30mpg in a significant number of member's signatures .....
The EPA published figures are after significant data manipulation that significantly understate real world highway figures. It is well known. I have a 2010 JSW 6MT and my best all highway tank was 49 mpg versus the 41 published by the EPA. This was a tank average verified by hand calculation and matched by the MFD. I regularly see, in the summer, 46 mpg trip average for my commute (30 miles and 20 on the highway).

What gasser car do you know that beats the published EPA mileage figures by 8 mpg? Now slow the TDI to 55 mph and you can extract 50 to 55 mpg. On the highway, there is no competition to this car sold in the US.
 

dslpusher

Member
Joined
Aug 10, 1999
Location
Snoqualmie, Washington
TDI
2003 Golf GLS TDI (gone)
Just a thought, I wonder if more diesel truck owners use additives than new TDI owners. I'll bet they do. ;)

Hi all:

It has been awhile since I have been on the site, when I owned a 2003 Golf TDI. I traded it in on my current vehicle, which is a 2007 Dodge 2500 with the Cummins 6.7L Diesel.

These issues remind me of the initial challenges Dodge had when they introduced the 6.7L in 2006 for the 2007 model year.

I special ordered my truck and took delivery in June of 2006. A lot of the owners had the same challenge of quality of fuel issues, which resulted in turbos needing to be cleaned, failed diesel particulate filters, etc.

Plus 3 Golfer: I was specifically told to not use additives in my truck because of the sensitive pump, injectors and emissions system. That any additive would shorten the life or cause it to fail prematurely. I used to add lubricant to my Golf on every tank. My truck has only used the UL diesel.

I currently have 77k miles and other than the initial teething issues, I've had none to date.

I'm back on the site as I'm considering getting a new TDI as my commuter, especially since diesel has shot up to $3.90/gallon (instead of commuting in the truck). I'm spending $400-$500 a month on diesel.

A local dealer has a '10 Jetta Sportwagen TDI (manual trans) for sale with only 9200 miles on it, but I'm surprised it isn't a certified pre-owned.

I wonder if the HPFP issues are the reason.

Great site and it is good to be back. I hope the issue will be resolved soon.

Take care,
Brad
 

scdevon

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2011
Location
USA
TDI
None
The EPA ratings for TDI's are definately low. My best tank so far is just shy of 50 mpg. My car is light, though. (2 dr Golf with 6 mt.) 42 to 44 psi in the tires as well.

A TDI with a proven reliable HPFP is a fun ride.
 

fastalan

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2010
Location
Richmond BC
TDI
2010 Golf TDI Wagon
Hmm. Looking around, it looks like the 2011 LML Duramax and the 6.7 PowerStroke don't have an HPFP failure epidemic, yet they use the CP4.2 pump - same as the V6 TDIs (which apparently have been blowing up, too), and it's the two-piston version of the CP4.1 used in the 4-cylinder TDIs.

I'm wondering if pre-pump filtration is inadequate - maybe water separation issues?
Truckers probably will NEVER misfuel their diesel truck while a passenger car driver might (especially new to diesel car).
 

eb2143

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 26, 2005
Location
Rhode Island
TDI
None
The EPA published figures are after significant data manipulation that significantly understate real world highway figures. It is well known. I have a 2010 JSW 6MT and my best all highway tank was 49 mpg versus the 41 published by the EPA. This was a tank average verified by hand calculation and matched by the MFD. I regularly see, in the summer, 46 mpg trip average for my commute (30 miles and 20 on the highway).

What gasser car do you know that beats the published EPA mileage figures by 8 mpg? Now slow the TDI to 55 mph and you can extract 50 to 55 mpg. On the highway, there is no competition to this car sold in the US.
If you look at fuelly data for the common rail, the epa estimates seemed to have served their purpose: The average seems about 38, and I only looked at Golf TDIs
 

zambaq

Active member
Joined
May 21, 2009
Location
NYC
TDI
2009 Jetta Sedan DSG [the Fix is in]
And the Beat Goes On...

Found on an Edmunds forum:

"My father was just over last night and filled me in on the latest adventures of 2 of his coworkers with Jetta TDI wagons. He has told me before that both have had problems with the HPFPs. The newest news is that 1 of them had their 2nd HPFP basically disintegrate and shoot metal throughout the engine. Toasted engine. 15k miles.

He's now been informed that
VW refuses to cover it under warranty. The reason being that the fuel he was using does not have enough essential lubricants. Meaning the ULSD required by US law is bad for VW's diesel engine and they won't warranty it ... yet they sell it here."

So maybe what VW needs to do by way of a "fix" is to supply us all with an easily-portable yet highly sophisticated diesel fuel test kit (like maybe a more "robust" version of its styrofoam cup). That would enable us to avoid the humiliation and impoverishment that await any who transgress against the Almighty VAG by offering unto its immaculate HPFP a less than pristine elixir to quaff. :rolleyes:

Alternatively, VW could simply arrange to have us all relocated to the Vaterland, where such transgressions are unknown....
 

tsdevine

Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2011
Location
Pennsylvania
TDI
2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDI (mine), 2010 Jetta TDI Sedan (wife)
Wish there was a way we'd could get them the message to file with the NHTSA......would help everyone if they did.
 
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Claudio

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2009
Location
IL
TDI
09 Jetta SW
i was thinking this morning that, if the problem is really lubrication, EVERY hpfp will eventually fail...you can do everything you can (additives, biodiesel etc) but there will be some times during the life of the car where you will have to use regular D2 because you ran out of additives and it is the only fuel available...this will hurt the pump...and then after 2 or 3 or 10 times that you do so the pump will eventually fail...
 

Claudio

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2009
Location
IL
TDI
09 Jetta SW
...Imperial?

I ask because if you mean 50 miles per US gallons, there must be something wrong with my car. Way too many people on here get way better mileage than I do, and I drive pretty conservatively.
i'm with you, i drive 77 miles each way to work, 90% hwy, and with the cruise set @ 70mph the best i got is 39mpg
 

chudzikb

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 28, 1999
Location
Lancaster, PA, USA
TDI
05.5 Jetta 03 Golf 2 door
So what you guys are saying is that my 03 Golf, 03 Jetta and 05 Jetta (even with the cam problems) are worth more now? That's what I am thinking...
 

Plus 3 Golfer

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Oct 29, 2008
Location
ARIZONA
TDI
Und tschüss! 2009 Jetta 12/23/2012
i was thinking this morning that, if the problem is really lubrication, EVERY hpfp will eventually fail...you can do everything you can (additives, biodiesel etc) but there will be some times during the life of the car where you will have to use regular D2 because you ran out of additives and it is the only fuel available...this will hurt the pump...and then after 2 or 3 or 10 times that you do so the pump will eventually fail...
Exactly!:D

That's essentially what the FIE manufacurers said in their 2009 position paper . We just don't know the actual lubricity of the fuel we put in our TDIs nor how long the pumps will run on fuel with various levels of lubricity. But we do know wear rates associated with fuels with various HFRR lubricity. Here's a Bosch graph on wear rates. I think it's safe to say using fuel with poor lubricity will significantly increase wear.

Lubricity, lubricity, lubricity per dweisel is cheap insurance since we don't really know the lubricity of the fuel we are pumping in our tanks.

 

ZiggyTheHamster

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2009
Location
Richmond, CA
TDI
2009 VW Jetta TDI
So what you guys are saying is that my 03 Golf, 03 Jetta and 05 Jetta (even with the cam problems) are worth more now? That's what I am thinking...
Not necessarily. The schools of thought on this issue are:

1. The HPFP suffered many manufacturing issues that result in its demise. If your HPFP is "good", it won't grenade on you.

2. The HPFP is sensitive to poor quality fuel and it's a good idea to maintain a high level of lubricity (additives, biodiesel, etc.). Everyone's HPFP will eventually grenade unless they use biodiesel or additives.

3. The HPFP is poorly designed and will grenade for everyone, but faster for people who cause it to wear faster (lack of lubricity).

I've been gathering data to attempt to rule out a manufacturing defect. I can't rule it out yet, but the small amount of data that I have doesn't really indicate a manufacturing defect. I have failures with USA pumps and with non-USA pumps. I also have failures that occur in an otherwise highly reliable pump revision. Nothing in my data indicates anything other than a normal failure rate.

So, let's say it's not a fluke manufacturing issue. It doesn't make your older cars necessarily worth more (unless the supply goes down due to there being a larger demand), but it does make the newer ones worth less (less of a demand). Personally, I'd love to have a fleet of 06-made-in-07's which I got on the cheap when the 09s first came out, because those would definitely be worth more once this HPFP issue gets bigger.

Also - let me point out that in any case, VW should cover it under warranty unless it's the owner's own negligence or the station's negligence. But they don't, so this issue is bigger than it would be if they didn't make things a PITA.

Edit: I'd also like to add that if the pump were lubricated by our supposedly high quality engine oil, one failure mode (lack of fuel lubrication) would be eliminated (of course then you have the "starved of oil and grenaded, destroying the engine through the engine oil outlet" issue, but I think it's less likely that will happen since a sensor would surely turn the car off well before then).
 
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IFRCFI

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Location
Winchester, VA
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2013 Touareg TDI Lux


He's now been informed that
VW refuses to cover it under warranty. The reason being that the fuel he was using does not have enough essential lubricants. Meaning the ULSD required by US law is bad for VW's diesel engine and they won't warranty it ... yet they sell it here."
I call Bravo Sierra on this bit of Internet mythology...:rolleyes: There is no way this was the reason given for denying warranty coverage...sorry.
 

torqueit

Veteran Member
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Sep 4, 2010
Location
Rochester, MI
TDI
2013 Passat TDI SE
What I find really interesting about this graph is that if you ensure high lubricity fuel, you essentially guarantee wear rates that are low enough for the effective life of the vehicle.

380 HFRR fuel has less wear in 8000 hours than 560 HFRR fuel gives you in only 1000 hours. If you average 30 MPH, you would predict 10 um wear in just 30,000 miles (not sure how much wear is needed to cause catastrophic failure) rather than roughly 240K miles.

Moreover, completely untreated D2 (no lubrication added back in), gives you that much wear in maybe 6000 miles.

Anyone know how much wear needs to occur before the thing grenades?
 

Plus 3 Golfer

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Oct 29, 2008
Location
ARIZONA
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Und tschüss! 2009 Jetta 12/23/2012
What I find really interesting about this graph is that if you ensure high lubricity fuel, you essentially guarantee wear rates that are low enough for the effective life of the vehicle.

380 HFRR fuel has less wear in 8000 hours than 560 HFRR fuel gives you in only 1000 hours. If you average 30 MPH, you would predict 10 um wear in just 30,000 miles (not sure how much wear is needed to cause catastrophic failure) rather than roughly 240K miles.

Moreover, completely untreated D2 (no lubrication added back in), gives you that much wear in maybe 6000 miles.

Anyone know how much wear needs to occur before the thing grenades?
Drivbiwire has stated
The target life of all Bosch fuel pumps is 750,000 miles (15,000 hours) using 7 micron rated fuel filters and 400 HFFR lubricity fuel.
If you extrapolate the HFRR 575 curve and adjust downward slightly for HFRR 520 fuel, you'll get a wear of about 15 microns at 2000 hours. Compare that to about 2.5 microns at 2000 hours for about HFRR 400 fuel. That's a ratio of 15/2.5 = 6/1. So, is the target like of the HPFP really only 750,000/6 = 125,000 miles????
 

jettajay

Active member
Joined
Feb 17, 2011
Location
Texas
TDI
2011 Candy White JSW
At what point do we replace the pump as maintenance? Is anyone confident that this will last 200-300 -400K? Even with B2 / lubricity agent on every filling.
 

thebigarniedog

Master of the Obvious
Joined
Oct 14, 2007
Location
Fail Command (Central Ohio)
TDI
1998 Jetta tdi
So what you guys are saying is that my 03 Golf, 03 Jetta and 05 Jetta (even with the cam problems) are worth more now? That's what I am thinking...
No, what is being said in this thread is that there is still a HPFP problem. VW could: (1) choose a design compatible with the existing fuel supply in the US --- which they apparently did not; (2) continue to run the existing (well, the first, second and third design HPFP) and warrant their product to an arbitrary number of say 150(k) miles; or (3) continue to allow uncertainty by blaming the customer first.

Look, VW certainly has tested this pump (all 3 designs) and is probably well aware of the statistical liklihood of it's failing within a certain mileage range using the crapiest existing US fuel. Hopefully, the NHSTA can access such information from them, because it has yet to otherwise hit the public and VW has not volunteered anything --- heck, who knew about the pump already being redesigned for a third time?

From my selfish perspective, why should I have to play the odds without knowing the risks? What I do know is that if I bought a new Golf and I end up holding the sh*t bag, it would be the last vw in this family, period --- and I would never ever ever hear the end of it from the spouse. So FIX THE PROBLEM ALREADY!
 
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