Dealer FUBAR friends car, think he can win in small claims?

Friend of a friend has 2003 TDi beetle. local dealer did the 80K TB, and the TB breaks at 115K.

Think he can win in small claims?

I can't think of why the TB would break, unless it was installed wrong or all the correct pullies were not changed.

Also, the TB has a service life of the belt is 80k and the prupose of replacing it is to prevent engine damage.

What you think?

EDIT: I believe most likely it was not changed at all.

Unless he can prove that it was actual dealer error such as old parts being re-used, he wont have much of a chance. If can get the covers off and perform a good inspection of all the pulleys and the belt and he finds something that wasnt replaced when it should be then he may have a chance. Also its possible for new belts to break, although rare there is always the possibility of bunk new parts.

Give us a week or two to sift through all the information you have given us and we will attempt to render an opinion. However, due to the sheer volume of data, we may have to lay on more staff.

Bill

Get the invoice of the work performed with part numbers and post it. It might be impossible to prove but if he's got time it might be worth pursuing.

I had a timing belt break on my '97 Jetta 15K miles after it was installed. Installed at 60K, broke at 75K. The belt wore itself thin by rubbing against the inner timing cover, likely due to a misaligned / mistightened injection pump. (There was even a TSB on this issue...)

Back then it was 10/100 new car warranty and 5/50 transferable to subsequent owners. Dealer pretty much told me to screw off, and after I pitched a fit they told me that "VW would not be participating in the repair." I contintued to throw a fit and finally I was told "VW will pay 50% of the repair." Felt pretty good for standing my ground like that and getting action only being 19.

You're probably on your own for this one though being so far after the belt was replaced and being at 115K miles total.

In order to win in small claims you'll someone as a expert witness who is willing to state it is their fault.

This is the only way you'll win.

So the car will have to go to a shop who has someone with some credentials, who is willing to go to court for you. That person will have to evaluate the problem, analize the failure and come up with a opinion.

Your opinion automatically means nothing, because its biased and because you paid someone else automatically means your not an expert.

Unfortunatly if its "out of warranty", based on what warranty is on the repair order, they may be able "get out" of responsibility.

They are liable if... labor was performed incorrectly resultin in the failure, or parts that they sold you failed.

I doubt it since it has been 35000 miles since the work was performed.

VWBeamer said:

What you think?

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Chances aren't good, would be my best guess.

... but it would be nice if more people took shody workmanship to task. Even just the inconvenience of having to show up in court is a worthwhile annoyance, IMO.

Thanks.... I don't have anymore info. It's a friend of a friend and he asked me.

I told him I would waste $50 dollars for the filing fee and haul them in for entertainment if nothing else.

40X40 said:

Give us a week or two to sift through all the information you have given us and we will attempt to render an opinion. However, due to the sheer volume of data, we may have to lay on more staff.

Bill

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You need to look up the rules for small claims in your area. Every state is different and some states allow counties to have different rules.

Claim limits, who can testify, evidence presented and so on.

I don't know any small claims cts that will allow an "expert witness" (at least not in NY, CT, VA, MD, DC or DE).

If you want to sue, your best (maybe only) tactic will be to show they did something wrong, i.e. used an old part or did not replace some item. It would be nearly impossible to prove they didn't torque something or tension the belt correctly.

If you can show they did something wrong, then it is a rebuttable presumption they are at fault, but like I said, you have a high burden.

Disclaimer: I'm an attorney currently barred in MD, CT and DC. I have practice experience in NY and DE, but not barred there.

Talked to friend. he says a pulley locked up. Sorry i don't have more info.

40X40 said:

Give us a week or two to sift through all the information you have given us and we will attempt to render an opinion. However, due to the sheer volume of data, we may have to lay on more staff.

Bill

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Lol, that's too funny!

Doubt you/he has a case, I believe they warranty their parts and labor for 12 months or 12,000 miles. Either way he made it over 12K miles. Pretty good for dealer work, lol.

VWBeamer said:

Thanks.... I don't have anymore info. It's a friend of a friend and he asked me.

I told him I would waste $50 dollars for the filing fee and haul them in for entertainment if nothing else.

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You're right it will be a waste of $50 and may cost your friend of a friend more to defend against a frivolous claim (especially since you're now on record of recommending filing a claim for entertainment).

Did the friend of your friend, check the TB every 10k miles per the maintenance schedule??? After 35k miles, it should have been checked 3 times. So, failure to check is negligence on the friend of your friend and failure to fix a faulty TB upon inspection with subsequent failure is also negligence on the friend of your friend.

So, bottom line after 35k miles, "$hit happens". Proving otherwise will be virtually impossible.

Cars are not supposed to work past 100k that's why they only guarentee them for that period and everything past 100k is gravy. We VW owners are spoiled. I took my VW to a dealer last fall in limp mode and the dealer could not fix it. The dealer said it has 170k on it and I should just get used to it. I then took it to Tdiracing and he diagnosed a cracked hose in 2 minutes.

Be happy the car lasted and just fix it.

Not a chance in hell
Also in issues like this , you been a member of a forum like this might help them WIN. They will claim you might have modded your car etc which put extra strain on the belt etc ?

In the UK 2 forum members lost court cases when the insurance company found out they had been doing "track days" .

VWBeamer said:

Talked to friend. he says a pulley locked up. Sorry i don't have more info.

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the "official" procedure (per the Bentley manual) does not mandate the replacement of pulleys as a matter of course. i doubt that a judge would find the shop at fault for this.

this is why people are urged to take their cars to tdiclub "gurus" or to follow the procedures published on this site call for replacement of all moving parts on each TB change.

most likely there are a few valves and followers damaged- hardly FUBAR'd. take it to a guru and it'll be good as new.

ducatiz said:

I don't know any small claims cts that will allow an "expert witness" (at least not in NY, CT, VA, MD, DC or DE).

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I've been used as a witness in 2 small claims cases. We won both. (missouri)

ducatiz said:

If you want to sue, your best (maybe only) tactic will be to show they did something wrong, i.e. used an old part or did not replace some item. It would be nearly impossible to prove they didn't torque something or tension the belt correctly.

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This is contradictory. If you cant have a expert witness testify that the bolts were torqued incorrectly (ie a small roller coming loose and "falling off" causing piston to vavle contact) then how could you prove they used a old part? It would simply be your opinion that the part was reused. Certainly the judge wouldn't have anyway of determining the part was reused. But if a expert witness testified, hypothetically, that the large roller was the early type and only the late type is now available, therefor it must have been reused, whereas the repair order showed it was charged for, which resulted in the large roller siezing up, and the belt burning and breaking, then liability could be established.

Seems to me it would be easier and more conclusive to have a witness testify defective labor than prove a part wasn't replaced.

Also, just the fact that they didn't replace a roller wouldn't necesarily make them liable, because it could be argued that replacing all the rollers is a matter of opinion. Dealership might even come with their own witness to say, "I've done hundreds of TB's and never replace the small rollers" or something. But if they charged for it and it could be proven it wasn't replaced, then they would be liable.

Despite my long winded speech, I have to agree with every one else that after 35,000 you have little chance of winning.

VWBeamer said:

Friend of a friend has 2003 TDi beetle. local dealer did the 80K TB, and the TB breaks at 115K.

Think he can win in small claims?

I can't think of why the TB would break, unless it was installed wrong or all the correct pullies were not changed.

Also, the TB has a service life of the belt is 80k and the prupose of replacing it is to prevent engine damage.

What you think?

EDIT: I believe most likely it was not changed at all.

Click to expand...

Contact noted tdi expert and board member T D I P O W E R, he lives by you. He apparently designs engines and is a legend in his own mind. Ask him his opinion and do the opposite. Good luck.

PS, in all seriousness you have little to lose in filing a small claims action, but I agree that you need someone with a lot of initials next to their name who can examine your friend's car and point to a specific fubar. To your advantage is that the life expectancy of that year belt is 100(k) miles --- so a failure at 35(k) supports an inference that negligence occurred. An expert can bring it home --- so I vote sue the bastards......