Vanagon bell housing measurement help

Hello. Would someone measure how much space there is between the input shaft and the outer edge of the bellhousing for me. Just lay a flat bar across the bell and measure from the top of the input shaft to the flat bar. Within 1/32 is appreciated, but 1/16 will do if that's all you got .

Thanks!

Andrew

Ps. Can be a vanagon transmission or a 2000's era v6 or 1.8t Passat trans. Thanks again!

i have a diesel bell and trans i could measure but you probably need the measurement for a gasser right ?... iirc they are different dimensions, someone please correct if i'm wrong

No! I need the diesel version. That's what I've got. Thanks Jim!

he probally putting diesel bell on gasser.. this requires shortning the main shaft.. else locks engine solid as too long... watched a guy beat his head against wall on this till he relized his error...

By "he" do you mean me?

I'm not putting a diesel bell on a gasser. Quite the opposite, actually .

Why would you watch a guy do this, and then beat his head against a wall? Seems like it would be kinda fun/funny for awhile, but then just mostly sad....

I'm putting a flipped 2000 v6 Passat on my afn tdi in my vanagon. If that helps?

Andrew

he is not me i hate vanagons... he pulled oil pan 2x looking for why stuff quit turning... after removing engine... not catching loosening bell housing bolts let it spin... till the 3rd try.. then he then figured out his error.. i was doing something else on the weekend he borrowed a bay.. and if i said who.. i bet people with guns, batts, pick axes would jump out... this was 1996... his internet fame is all bout vanagons too.. real famous on samba for bad bad stories... he was putting 1.8 digafaunt from a mk2 in vanagon that he was towing round with a dasher... that trip...

why "that trip" seen him pulling 2 vanagons hitched together with it once too.. with cherry picker and 2 engines in dasher SEDAN not wagon, cause both vanagons packed full... ahhhh the days phones lacked cameras

annieneff said:

No! I need the diesel version. That's what I've got. Thanks Jim!

Click to expand...

i'll make an attempt this week to place the bell and get a measurement

Confused - do you need the measurement from a Vanagon or a Passat (012)? I have a few 012s kicking about I can measure.

Further confused - if you're putting an 012 on an AFN that's bolt-on, notwithstanding yours being upside down so why do you need the measurement?

EDIT: I re-read the OP's original post... Apparently I miss under stood what he is asking! I'll just leave the below info in this post.


The Input shaft in the gasser Vanagon transmission is 22mm longer than the Input shaft of a diesel Vanagon Transmission.

Either shaft will work in either transmission. However, if you intend to install a Diesel Bell Housing on a Gasser Transmission, you need the Diesel Input Shaft ........ Or, you can take the gasser Input shaft to a machine shop and have 22 mm removed.

EDIT: Correction, a diesel input shaft would be too short in a gasser bell housing application.

In the pic below, the shaft in the background is the same length of the diesel Vanagon transmission Input Shaft. That shaft (in the background) accepts a TDI clutch disc. The shaft in the foreground is from a gasser transmission.

Here are a couple of pics from my gallery ...









EDIT: Below are a couple pics I took just now...

Below: This first pic is of the Diesel Bell Housing. The measuring tape is on the outside edge of the bell housing near where the Timing Hole is located.



Below, This pic is of the Gasser Bell Housing. The measuring tape is at the top outer edge of the bell housing.




Note: The distance from the outer edge of the bell housing (on any transmission) to the center of the pilot shaft is going to be different in several places around the circumference due to various thicknesses related to reinforcement, starter indention, etc.

he is looking for the depth of the shaft vs the area the bell housing touches the block.. too long is issue.. locks things up.. so he is trying to get the stock diesel depth... he cut up a bellhousing to weld to his inverted trans if im correct.. why this measurement counts..

if the tape was a straight edge.. then distance between straight edge n shaft is the measurement seeked...

CRSMP5 said:

he is looking for the depth of the shaft vs the area the bell housing touches the block.. too long is issue.. locks things up.. so he is trying to get the stock diesel depth

Click to expand...

^^^^^^ This.
Just lay a flat bar across the bell, and see if it touches the input shaft. If it doesn't touch the input shaft, what's the distance between the flat bar, and the shaft?

This question comes from my other thread about flipping the passat v6 trans. I cut the bell housing for the v6, and I thought I wrote down what the relation to the input shaft was to the bell, but I can't find it now...

I don't think I need the measurements for the V6. The old tdi input shaft worked, and besides having different splines on the thicker part, they are the same diameter on the input part.

So... I need to know the diesel distance.

crsmp5 said:

if the tape was a straight edge.. Then distance between straight edge n shaft is the measurement seeked...

Click to expand...

YES! :d

whats spooky is if the tape was flat.. i think feeler gauges will be required.. but that pic is so close to what you seeked.. and his edit said he just took that for you..

Well, now I understand what the OP needs to know. Too late to be going out to the garage to take pics and measurements tonight.

The Measuring Tape was not flat in either photo....

But, I can tell you this:

1. The pilot shaft extends beyond the bell housing on both the gasser and diesel.

2. The diesel bell housing has less depth than the gasser bell housing. That is why the pilot shaft for the diesel bell housing is 22 mm shorter than the gasser shaft.

3. You cannot sit either transmission on a flat surface with the bell housing facing down without the pilot shaft touching the surface. I use two pieces of 2X4 to keep the shaft from touching the floor. That's how I store Vanagon transmissions (bell housing facing down toward the concrete floor of my garage.)

So, tomorrow, I will measure the protrusion amount of the pilot shaft beyond the plane of the end of the bell housing and post results.

AndyBees said:

I can tell you this:

1. The pilot shaft extends beyond the bell housing on both the gasser and diesel.

2. The diesel bell housing has less depth than the gasser bell housing. That is why the pilot shaft for the diesel bell housing is 22 mm shorter than the gasser shaft. That's how I store Vanagon transmissions (bell housing facing down toward the concrete floor of my garage.)

3. You cannot sit either transmission on a flat surface with the bell housing facing down without the pilot shaft touching the surface. I use two pieces of 2X4 to keep the shaft from touching the floor.

Click to expand...

Boy, I don't know, Andy...

I have a 5 speed (which maybe is different than your 4 speed???), and I cut it on a router table. I cut it this way because the input shaft was not longer than the bell, and did not protrude. It wouldn't have worked to cut it this way, and I wouldn't have done it otherwise.

I appreciate a million you looking into this for me, but I know-- I'm nearly certain-- that the input was lower than the bell when measuring across.

Now I'm questioning what I think I remember: Andy is THE authority on this... This conversion is becoming quite the clusterF.

and only why i wanna see ya get it right.. watching someone pull a engine 2x is funny.. expecially for who he became online... but its not nice.. and no google back then for the stuff spoken by andy ..he was one of the first playing with swaps... id his name was not mud.. he would be a person who would set up a business to do them for people cross country.. but too many bad past indescressions to haunt him which is sad as vanagons were his thing

also... andy is right... the shaft does stick out.. and yours started inset.. you may be too short needing to cut more bell housing off.. then welding new on.. why i was thinking you needed this measurement...you used a fwd bell housing vs vanagon..

im only interested as i wanna make up a flatbed tow truck rwd and dont want mid engine.. cannot explain my image in my head think b3 wagon... cut for cab.. under hood is trunk.. flat bed long nuff to fit a b3 wagon on back.. but under car carrier room like a bus/vanagoon pick up made for sleep n parts/tools.. .. but this would be the tranny idea i could use if it works

Talking Vanagons: I have two Diesel transmissions, two post-83.5 transmissions, two pre-83.5 transmissions and a 1970 Bay Bus tranny as well as several TDI automatics and 5-speeds, a few MK1 trannys and a Quantum auto tranny. I just traded off a '68 Bus tranny for a 3 cylinder Kubota Diesel engine.

I've never laid eyes on a Syncro tranny.

Interestingly, the hole in the end of the TDI crankshaft is almost deep enough to accommodate the longer gasser Pilot Shaft using the diesel bell housing.

I measured two different post 83.5 gasser transmission pilot shafts for protrusion beyond the plane of the bell housing face. I used a piece of 1 1/2 X 1 1/2 inch angle iron for the straight edge, thus no swaying.

I got 1 & 1/16 inch (one and one sixteenth) on both transmissions. One of them could have been a "smidge" less than 1 & 1/16, not even enough to call it 1/32". I measured several times using different instruments. Neither shaft had any "in or out" play that I could feel.

Although I did not take measurements on a diesel transmission, I cannot image why there would be a difference. (Refer to my previous posts and their contents for such rationale.)

Hope this helps.

Huh. Well the diesel and the gasser must be different then. Thanks for looking for me. Below is my old transmission. The first picture is how it presently sits, with the ring cut off it. The other picture shows the pilot shaft below the plane of the bell when I place the piece I cut off back on there. There is an 1/8" of material missing after accounting for the width of the blade that made the cut, and sanding it flat. I think I can get a pretty close measurement with those numbers, but having conformaiton would be great.

i knew gas n diesel different due to guy not making his short nuff to fit locking things up...diesel bell on gasser trans

why you really need diesel measurement to be safe.. but with his differance in shaft length between the 2 and his above info.. you should be close... can always grind the end shorter if a smiggen too long.. just test fit it first knowing you may need too... can remove metal.. hard to put it back..

I believe I've explained in detail the differences in the Gasser and Diesel Bell Housings and Input Shafts. It's all in those posts I made previously.

I've been running a Diesel Bell Housing on my 1980 Vanagon DK tranny with the ALH TDI engine for over 50k miles.

The only thing necessary is to use a Diesel Tranny Input shaft. And, if you plan to use a G60 Single Mass Flywheel or DMF, there are about three or four places inside the Diesel Bell Housing that needs ground off for clearance purposes. Also, if you use the OE Vanagon Diesel Starter, about 40 thousandths needs to be ground off the bottom of the starter nose so it will clear the engine side of the flywheel.

I've been there and done all of it. It is documented (with photos) in my conversion Thread. ... very long, but it's all in there > http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=276798

I understand the differences between diesel and gasser transaxles on the vanagons. I was looking for the measurement between the two points on the 1983.5 (and similar) diesel, so I could recreate that distance in the 2002 V6 DVZ transaxle I'm replacing my DX with.

I think the mostly incomprehensible CRSMP5 is right though; get it close enough with what I've got and err on the side of too long. That's what the angle grinder is for.

Cheers!

Andrew

Okay, I'm finally zeroing in on what your are doing.

You cut the face off the Diesel Bell Housing to weld onto the Passat flipped transmission.

Well, it doesn't matter what you are welding to that piece, for the Input shaft to work properly, it needs to protrude beyond the plane of the surface that's going to MATE to the engine. That's the key ...

So, you need the protrusion distance of the Pilot Shaft of the Diesel Bell Housing. It maybe the same considering the depth of the Diesel Bell Housing is less than the Gasser Bell housing.

Here is something to think about with respect to the protrusion distance ... There should be a dust plate between the engine and the Bell Housing... However, it can be left out and not cause any problem with the Pilot Shaft. So, there is room for error, plus or minus a bit.

Another interesting thing, the face off an MK1 transmission/bell housing (gasser or diesel) can be used with some applications. It has the same bolt pattern as the TDI engine.... all the way back to 1974.

Okay, so this means I need to go out to the garage and dig out one of those Diesel Transmissions and do some measuring....

............... I shall return with some numbers!

Wow! 3/8 of an inch.

The pilot shaft had about 1/64 inch "in and out" play. In the pic, the shaft was all the way down (really, insignificant, in my opinion).

In the pic, considering the camera is on about a 35 degree angle, it doesn't look quite like 3/8. But, down on eye level, it was spot-on. I also measured with other means to confirm my findings.

3/8 of an inch... That is interesting! Thank you Andy!!!

There cant be any difference between the 4 speed DK and the 5 speed DX: there just cant. So I must have been holding the cut off piece weird.

Anyway, that gives me a solid number to work for, and a lot more confidence.

Thanks for your help and participation in this little piece of obscure tdi paraphernalia .

Andrew

In hindsight, if you think about, the TDI crankshaft "sticks back" toward the transmission probably an inch or more ....

So, with Bell Housing all bolted-up to the engine, the 3/8 inch protrusion of the Pilot Shaft fits perfectly in the end of the crankshaft!

The Vanagon Wasser boxer and Air-cooled engine's crankshaft is pretty much in-line with the end of the engine case..., thus the need for a longer pilot shaft..

Glad to help ...

lol... "incomprehensible CRSMP5" but i knew what ya seeked... just lacked it.. but bingo bingo.. its on google for life now.. thanks andy..