Amsoil In this Thread only

Crows Synthetics · Jun 6, 2011

To set the record straight!

I would never recomend a oil other than what Amsoil's states.

If a customer is having mechanical problems. Thinking out side the box sometime can be helpful. Telling the customer we were doing just that is the way to go complete discloser.

I was just approaching the different oil in a discussion I was just thinking there were other oils that could work. With the cam failure issue in the TDI's, the high Zink & Phosphorus could be helpful. Realizing there were several members here that could shed some light on my thoughts.

This was my thinking I hope this clears things up.

Bill

Bob_Fout · Jun 6, 2011

BEN721364 said:
Post # 1523 was mine. I repeat, "I recommend that you be guided by the vehicle manufacturer's recommendations with respect to lubricant types and specifications; rather than hype from a lubricant manufacturer or blender. VW includes this information in the materials that came with the car."

It appears that you advocate disregarding the vehicle manufacturer's recommendations/admonishments with respect to lubricant 'certifications' and instead advocate that folks be guided by advertising copy and brochure hype from lubricant marketers. Fair characterization? If so, I respectfully disagree. While API (as one example) certification entails some expense, it (and or others) is the price of admission to the sandlot, IMO. It's not that I "distrust" marketers of non-certified products...

Second and third statements.

Company track record, reputation and oil performance are my metrics. All lubricant manufacturers have "hype" and "advertising copy".

Code:

XYZ is an advanced full synthetic motor oil designed to keep your engine running like new by providing exceptional cleaning power, wear protection and overall performance.

Not being tied to API and other time-limited, prohibitively expensive certs can be beneficial. Just depends if you trust Red Line oil or not. I mean Schaeffer oil. No, I meant Amsoil. Oh, no, meant Royal Purple. (all of these are well-known, respected, and have proven oils)

SuburbanTDI · Jun 6, 2011

Bob_Fout said:
Follow your OEM recommendations if you want that (AFL in a PD).

Nowhere does Volkswagen, the "Original Equipment Manufacturer" (OEM), recommend AFL. Point of fact, Volkswagen's list of approved oil vendors does not include any Amsoil product.

Additionally, Amsoil has never presented any product for certification as a VW505.01, VW507 or any other VW certification. Amsoil does choose to certify some oils, notably through API. No API specs are suitable for the PD motor.

Amsoil itself has made note of the PD's high standards for oil:

European automobile manufacturers design vehicles to use specific high quality lubricants with specific properties and additives.

"Europeans build their cars and impose higher requirements on the type of oil than we are used to here in North America," remarks an oil industry source.

"On top of that, manufacturers have introduced their own standards, most of which start with the ACEA standards, and go further in specific tests to solve specific problems and address specific issues."

European vehicle manufacturers keep tight control over which lubricants they allow to be used in their vehicles. Inner-company bureaucracies are in charge of keeping the approved lubricant lists up-to-date with the latest requirements, and a few companies apply some of the regulations to North America.

Although synthetic motor oils are generally of higher quality than conventional oils, not all synthetics can meet the stringent European specifications. Just because it's a synthetic doesn't mean it's a top tier product.

"Shop owners must keep in mind that there are numerous special requirements for European vehicles"

Although it's easy to assume that the more expensive the vehicle, the better quality the lubricant it needs, that's not always the case. For example, the mid-priced Volkswagen TDI requires a very specific, high spec lubricant.

And Amsoil itself has chosen not to meet these stringent quality standards for the oil the PD motor requires.

BEN721364 · Jun 6, 2011

I support your right to your opinion. Do you support mine? <g>

TooSlick · Jun 6, 2011

We seem to have this same discussion about once a year. It never has resolved anything to the best of my recollection and it's never changed anyone's mind. The last time I checked, no one was forcing anyone to use Amsoil (or any other oil) in their TDI. I've tried to limit my posts to answering specific questions, which seems to be the best use of my time. If people would prefer to pm me with questions and avoid the cross talk, that's fine too....

TS

Flavor Dave · Jun 11, 2011

In the interest of transparency:

I am an Amsoil dealer, but only buy for myself and sell (at cost) to a few friends.

I do not, and will not advertise or sell to the public.

I have not, and will not set up others as dealers.

My entire involvement in Amsoil is for personal use, and to supply a handfull of friends that like the products that Amsoil produces.

My story:

I have a 2005 Passat TDI Wagon. (PD, BHW, 2.0L TDI) purchased new.

After my rigorous break-in procedure, I changed the oil at 5000 miles.

Since there was no recommended Amsoil product available in 2005, I used Motul 505.01.

I reached 10,000 miles just as Amsoil had reformulated the AFL (Euro-spec) oil for 505.01, so that's what I used for my 10K change.

I have used AFL exclusively ever since.

Fast forward to 90,000 miles (2010).

I was in the middle of moving to a new city (job promotion), and I had no time/place to do a timing belt or the balance shaft upgrade.

I searched around for a good TDI-savvy shop, and dropped off our car.

I stopped by to see how the work was progressing, and the mechanic waved me into the shop bay.

He asked "What oil are you using??"

"Why?", I asked....

He said "This is the cleanest (internally speaking) TDI I have ever seen."

"Amsoil Euro" I said.

He then showed me a pair of BHW cams that were changed from a 70,000 mile car.

The 70,000 mile cams looked awful, with several of the lobes worn away.

"Wrong oil?", I asked.

"The customer swears he was using 505.01" he said.

"Now look at your cams", he said.

Compared to the 70K mile cams, mine looked like new.

Then he showed me my balance shaft, chain, and tensioner.

They looked new as well.

I went ahead and did the balance shaft upgrade anyway, just to be safe.

I wish I would have had my camera there, so I could post photos.

This car has had a pretty rough life too, and now has 100,00 miles on the clock.

1/3 of the last 100K has been towing either 2 snowmobiles, two ATVs, firewood, or topsoil.

Many of these towing trips have been cross-country (Pittsburgh, West Virginia, West Yellowstone, Arizona).

Even after 100K, I STILL don't have to add any oil between changes.

Guess what oil I'm putting in for it's 100K oil change???

Dave

Crows Synthetics · Jun 11, 2011

Dave

That is Awesome !!!!
Bill

SuburbanTDI · Jun 11, 2011

Flavor Dave said:
I am an Amsoil dealer,
...
Guess what oil I'm putting in for it's 100K oil change???
Dave

What a surprise to see yet another newbie make an Amsoil testamercial.

BKmetz said:
No anecdotal or testimonial posts: You have used Brand X oil for 40 years and have driven a million miles without any oil related problems. So what? So has everyone else on their brand of oil and will tell you so. Want to brag about your oil, get a job as an audience shill on a cable TV infomercial. Shill posts will be edited.

SuburbanTDI · Jun 11, 2011

I wonder if the people at Allen Engineering Corporation still fume at the market share they lost when Amsoil destroyed their transmissions.

It was quite something, massive recall for those transmissions that hadn't failed yet to dump out the Amsoil and replace it with a quality lubricant. Allen Engineering lost market share, Allen had their reputation harmed, Allen customers lost work while without functioning equipment at jobsites.

I can't recall too many lubes that ever destroyed transmissions and needed replacement with a different product through recall.

Funny thing is - Amsoil refused to stand behind and warrant their product ... and only settled after they were sued.

pipes p · Jun 11, 2011

ive used amsoil for 20 years, in tdi for last 10, never a problem, i am not a dealer, just a satisfied customer. i now have a 11 jetta tdi, after some thought and research im going to put the fuchs 507.00 until warranty expires only because i know how vw can be about things. guess which oil i will be using once warranty is up? again, IM NOT A DEALER! to each their own.

Flavor Dave · Jun 11, 2011

SuburbanTDI said:
What a surprise to see yet another newbie make an Amsoil testamercial.

Not exactly a newbie...

Used to be on a while ago under a different name, since 2004 or so.

Signed up again yesterday.

If you don't like the product, don't use it.

I do, so I will.

BTW, the Allen recall was for 48 ride-on power trowels.......Not exactly MASSIVE.....LOL

SuburbanTDI · Jun 12, 2011

"

Flavor Dave said:
LOL

You have to be the first Amsoil dealer I've ever seen that "Laughs Out Loud" at Amsoil refusing to warrant their product.

Would it have been so funny if it was you that Amsoil refused warranty to when their recommended product damaged something you owned?

DPM · Jun 12, 2011

he's laughing at you, Sub...

milehighassassin · Jun 14, 2011

SuburbanTDI, can you show me "all those amsoil failures" yet? Still waiting to read about them.

Why the Hate for Amsoil? Like what others have said, if you don't like it, don't use it.

Crows Synthetics · Jun 15, 2011

milehighassassin said:
SuburbanTDI, can you show me "all those amsoil failures" yet? Still waiting to read about them.

Why the Hate for Amsoil? Like what others have said, if you don't like it, don't use it.

I just don't understand the hate ether.
Bill

BEN721364 · Jun 15, 2011

Crows Synthetics said:
I just don't understand the hate ether.
Bill

To the extent that hatred may have been expressed toward the AMSOIL brand, I would agree with you that it would not be understandable to reasonable people. All marketers try to present their products in the best possible light and it is the responsibility of potential customers to sift through the claims. Personally I think that all lubricants meeting API standards for the defined purpose are satisfactory.

An automotive engineer friend who worked for a major oil company would use the compamy's product in his engines for 4 or 5 changes then run a competiting brand for one before returning to his product. His theory was that while all additive packs were good, they were sufficiently different to attack and hold in suspension contaminants that others would miss. It seemed to make sense to me. He was chided by management when he mentioned his theory publicly, for obvious reasons. <g>

tikal · Jun 15, 2011

Good point

That is a good point BEN721364. I use Amsoil in my 2002 Golf on a yearly basis (DEO based on good analysis returns) but I will be willing to use Motul, Mobil or other reputable brands to maximize the good qualities of each oil brand.

BEN721364 said:
To the extent that hatred may have been expressed toward the AMSOIL brand, I would agree with you that it would not be understandable to reasonable people. All marketers try to present their products in the best possible light and it is the responsibility of potential customers to sift through the claims. Personally I think that all lubricants meeting API standards for the defined purpose are satisfactory.

An automotive engineer friend who worked for a major oil company would use the compamy's product in his engines for 4 or 5 changes then run a competiting brand for one before returning to his product. His theory was that while all additive packs were good, they were sufficiently different to attack and hold in suspension contaminants that others would miss. It seemed to make sense to me. He was chided by management when he mentioned his theory publicly, for obvious reasons. <g>

SuburbanTDI · Jun 15, 2011

Pointing out, in a discussion about Amsoil, that Amsoil has a history of not standing behind their product and refusing to warrant their product when Amsoil itself destroys machines is not "hate". Especially when the false tale is repeatedly told, as part of the sales pitch to take money from others, that no one has ever had a successful warranty claim against Amsoil.

If you wish to find indications of "hate" look to the attacks above which are directed at me as a person and which do not address my focused and on-topic discussion about this threads subject, Amsoil.

Crows Synthetics · Jun 15, 2011

Amsoil must be ok

Amsoil must be OK to use as the Dealer ask if I brought my oil when I went in for their oil change. I was really surprised to say the least! They of course new I was a dealer I did not have the oil so they used there oil and I went 2000 and drained and replaced it with our oil. It after all is under warranty.
Bill

LGV2001 · Jun 15, 2011

SubTdi, can you give us the links to the info about " never had a successful claim against Amsoil"?

Thanks

Crows Synthetics · Jun 15, 2011

LGV2001 said:
SubTdi, can you give us the links to the info about " never had a successful claim against Amsoil"?

Thanks

I would like to see the reason for failure and any info on the equipment.
I just pm him.
Bill

SuburbanTDI · Jun 15, 2011

Crows Synthetics said:
I would be very interested in the facts.

Do you have proof Amsoil refused to stand behind and warranty their product of Allen Engineering Corporation.
I would be very interested in the facts.

All warranty's come with exclusions Amsoil is no different.
Bill

Here's a quote from the United States Federal Court of Appeals, Eighth Circuit:

PER CURIAM.

Amsoil, Inc., a manufacturer and distributer of synthetic oil, was sued for
negligence and breach of warranty in the Eastern District of Arkansas by Allen
Engineering Corporation.

Allen used Amsoil’s synthetic oil as a lubricant in gearboxes it produced. Allen claimed the synthetic oil caused property damage to the gear boxes, resulting in financial harm incurred by Allen when it replaced the defective gear boxes, recalled all gear boxes with Amsoil oil and replaced the oil, and as a result, lost profits and market share.

The two parties settled: Amsoil agreed to pay Allen $1.5 million.

Before MORRIS SHEPPARD ARNOLD, FAGG, and MELLOY, Circuit Judges

A true copy.
Attest:
CLERK, U.S. COURT OF APPEALS, EIGHTH CIRCUIT

That would be just that. Amsoil refused to warrant their product and the customer took them to court. Amsoil then, and only then, paid for their poor product that damaged the customers property.

LGV2001 · Jun 15, 2011

Any more cases TDI? The reason I am asking is that I use some Amsoil products in expensive equipment.

milehighassassin · Jun 15, 2011

You have shown one case. Lets hear about the ones you mentioned earlier...

Crows Synthetics · Jun 16, 2011

LGV2001 said:
Any more cases TDI? The reason I am asking is that I use some Amsoil products in expensive equipment.

I use Amsoil in some very expensive as well as many customers I would not worry one minute.

Bill

Crows Synthetics · Jun 16, 2011

SuburbanTDI said:
Here's a quote from the United States Federal Court of Appeals, Eighth Circuit:

That would be just that. Amsoil refused to warrant their product and the customer took them to court. Amsoil then, and only then, paid for their poor product that damaged the customers property.

This is the same as than Amsoil Testimonials their is no way to check your facts.

A link would be nice other wise it is no more than HYPE.

I can say with a great deal of certainty there is more to this case than just failure.

This could be the wrong oil for the application.

That is why facts is so important.

TooSlick · Jun 18, 2011

I've used and sold the product for over thirty years. It works as advertised, provided you're using the correct product & change interval for the application.

I've seen other situations such as the 1999-2001, 3.0L Toyotas, where Amsoil paid to replace some engines, even though there was an underlying mechanical issue.

TS

BEN721364 · Jun 18, 2011

TooSlick said:
I've used and sold the product for over thirty years. It works as advertised, provided you're using the correct product & change interval for the application.

I've seen other situations such as the 1999-2001, 3.0L Toyotas, where Amsoil paid to replace some engines, even though there was an underlying mechanical issue.

TS

I think the same can be said of any engine lubricant manufacturer/blender. Don't you?

I have used major brands and never had an oil related engine failure in over 50 years. IMO the brand is far less important than that the product meets the recommended specifications and is used properly, as you noted.

TooSlick · Jun 18, 2011

Ben,

I think there some smaller blenders who take liberties with the capability of their lubes and with their advertising claims. Needless to say, they don't stay in business for almost forty years and continue to grow at over 10% annually.

TS

BEN721364 · Jun 18, 2011

TooSlick said:
Ben,

I think there some smaller blenders who take liberties with the capability of their lubes and with their advertising claims. Needless to say, they don't stay in business for almost forty years and continue to grow at over 10% annually.

TS

You may very well be correct. I will not buy an engine lubricant that is not API certified.

Amsoil In this Thread only

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