Transformer oil for fuel??

TDIbat

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B4black appears to be someone who believes his opinions are superior to mere "facts."
A mechanic has warned me to never even use biodiesel, as he has noted the need for an engine rebuild about a tank later. Obviously the gist here would disagree, but B4black thinks just because you CAN burn something in a car, you Should.
Read again: the additives in any modern petro product are use-specific, and the modifiers in transformer oil serve the purpose of cooling, not clean combustion.
Just because the PCBs are gone, doesn't make the replacements anything you want to go around burning and breathing. The incinerators designed for that purpose are likely to be the only facilities that cleanly destroy the cooling oil to required standards, and filter the small remainder with special scrubbers, etc. not anything found in an auto exhaust system. Most benign result is going to be a prematurely toasted catalytic converter, with the rest polluting the county you live in. Emissions tests might not even catch you, because those systems are only designed to measure normal compounds in exhaust, not wierd inappropriate substances, even if toxic.
You're a self-righteous know-it-all who doesn't have any street cred or credentials, and you keep shifting the threads subject as you wear out one 'dis after another.
 

BKmetz

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Wow..... Post of the day nomination here...

:)

B4black appears to be someone who believes his opinions are superior to mere "facts."

A mechanic has warned me to never even use biodiesel, as he has noted the need for an engine rebuild about a tank later. Obviously the gist here would disagree, but B4black thinks just because you CAN burn something in a car, you Should. Read again: the additives in any modern petro product are use-specific, and the modifiers in transformer oil serve the purpose of cooling, not clean combustion.

Just because the PCBs are gone, doesn't make the replacements anything you want to go around burning and breathing. The incinerators designed for that purpose are likely to be the only facilities that cleanly destroy the cooling oil to required standards, and filter the small remainder with special scrubbers, etc. not anything found in an auto exhaust system. Most benign result is going to be a prematurely toasted catalytic converter, with the rest polluting the county you live in. Emissions tests might not even catch you, because those systems are only designed to measure normal compounds in exhaust, not weird inappropriate substances, even if toxic.

You're a self-righteous know-it-all who doesn't have any street cred or credentials, and you keep shifting the threads subject as you wear out one 'dis after another.
 

Riflesmith

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One thing that higher fuel prices do is to drive people to burn less of it due to the effect on their own financial bottom line. One choice is, of course, to drive less. Once that choice has been fully exploited, there are those that will result to fuel "substitutes" that they may be able to obtain for little or no cost. They give little thought on the consequences their "free" fuel may have on their lubricating oil, such as ash in the combustion area and piston ring grooves. There could also be residual human hazards in the lube oil at oil change and disposal time. They also give little to no consideration to what spews from their tailpipe.

All of this is part of human nature which, as mentioned in an earlier post, can be a very disturbing thing.
 

Conan

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Another factor I haven't seen on here is that the 'safe' level of PCBs may mean it's safe to store in drums, or safe to have in sealed transformers. That doesn't necessarily mean that it's safe to pump into a diesel cylinder at 20K+ PSI, atomize, burn, and emit as exhaust.
 

NextExit

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To the Grim Tailpipe

[...] Seems it's quite commonly used in diesel engines with success. [...]
The last "successful" use of transformer oil in a diesel that I have heard of was during the siege of Sarajevo, 1992-1996. Also the last justifiable use, IMHO.

Yep, using it for thousands and thousands of miles with no problems [for you. Ed.] What are your other concerns?
That you'll use it anywhere within 10 miles of me or anybody I care about. If you ever drive to the east coast with that stuff in your tank please let this forum know in advance so that we can clear out in time.
 

thundershorts

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non pcb oil still contains silica, an engine destroyer
 

sfierz

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No, we are not talking about "non-PCB" oil because it has already been mentioned that used transformer oil has come into contact with PCBs in the transformer--so, technically, it is all contaminated.:mad: Putting this into a diesel engine to be atomized and combusted to spew highly-toxic by products is both illegal and unethical, not to mention unhealthy.

This is the worst idea I have heard of in years, and no one should be endangering their own or others health by burning this oil.:(

I did. Obviously there is an issue with PCB oils, but the discussion moved beyond that a while ago. You must have missed that part while you were typing your rants. :p We are now talking about non-PCB transformer oil.

How about you delete your posts and contribute meaningful discussion. :)
 

BKmetz

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thundershorts said:
non pcb oil still contains silica, an engine destroyer
Indeed. The mineral oil based fluids still contain silicate additives as the silicates are used for thermo-stability and anti-foaming.

Just be clear about this there are TWO types of transformer fluids; mineral oil based and silicone based. The silicone based fluid is a dieletric fluid, not really an oil in the context that we're thinking of at all although it sure looks 'oily' to the layman. Think of silicone transformer oil with the same mindset one thinks of silicone based brake fluid. It doesn't mix with mineral oils and it doesn't burn. But when exposed to very high temperatures (like an electrical arch) it will vaporize like any fluid.

Silicone fliuds are used in smaller transformers or in transformers used inside buildings where mineral oil use is prohibited by fire codes.

As stated in this thread several times, transformer oil used as a diesel fuel is just a really bad idea.


:rolleyes:
 

aja8888

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No, we are not talking about "non-PCB" oil because it has already been mentioned that used transformer oil has come into contact with PCBs in the transformer--so, technically, it is all contaminated.:mad: Putting this into a diesel engine to be atomized and combusted to spew highly-toxic by products is both illegal and unethical, not to mention unhealthy.

This is the worst idea I have heard of in years, and no one should be endangering their own or others health by burning this oil.:(
To correct this, it's the oil that contains the PCBs, not the transformer cores. Polychlorinated Biphenyls were introduced into the oil to aid in making it fire retardant.
 

Intech

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I thought that stuff had nasty stuff in it like PCP?
It's PCB's, and yes, unless the particular utility company has changed them out, they are highly carcinogenic. Most large utilities, Exelon, PSE&G, FPL have done so within the last 15 years, but some of the others don't want to spend the money. Be real careful with that stuff, I wouldn't mess with it.
 

sfierz

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Yes, but it has been mentioned that the cases still have some residual PCB's even when "flushed" so that fluid is therein also contaminated, albeit to a lesser degree. Many electronics were manufactured with PCB's as well so contamination could come from that as well.

To correct this, it's the oil that contains the PCBs, not the transformer cores. Polychlorinated Biphenyls were introduced into the oil to aid in making it fire retardant.
 

Jack Frost

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It's PCB's, and yes, unless the particular utility company has changed them out, they are highly carcinogenic. ... Be real careful with that stuff, I wouldn't mess with it.
To give an idea of how bad that stuff is - when PCBs are burnt in a TDI, dioxins are produced. Some dioxins are THE MOST TOXIC substances that your liver will ever see. Agent Orange that was sprayed in Vietnam was made of two base herbicides of low or moderate toxicity (2,4-D and 2,4,5-T), but was contaminated with dioxins. It was the dioxin component that cause all the congenital defects in children not to mention latent cancers in the adults.

.
 

Pat Dolan

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I have tried to stay away from this thread, but there is just so much missunderstanding that some of the record needs to be put straight.

First of all, PCB is not "highly carcenogenic". There are about 110 different ways to attach more than one chlorine atom to a biphenyl molecule, and of those fewer than 12 are "suspected" carcinogens. Almost anyone my age from the electrical industry can tell you endless stories of cleaning their tools and hands daily for years in the stuff, and about the only reaction has been mild skin irritation in some cases. However, it IS incredibly persistant and once it is "in" you, it isn't going anywhere for the rest of your life, so the last thing I recommend is going out and using it for cleaning solvent or salad dressing.

The problem with PCB from a testing standpoint is that congenor specific analysis is AES, mass spec or similar and costs so much that it is cheaper to just treat the whole thing as carcinogenic and measure concentration with GC. Costs less to just buy new oil.

The requirement for thermal destruction (there are several other ways - but mostly chemical reaction with sodium) is a minimum of 1,100 deg. C with residence time of at least one full second in an oxygen rich environment to reach the EPA standards for destruction. It shouldn't take a math major to figure out that those conditions are NEVER met inside of an engine. Do anything less, and you do just what others have mentioned: you make di-furo benzines (furans) and those ARE incredibly carcinogenic.

There are several different ways to make insulating fluids used in high voltage electrical devices. Most use napthenic base stocks, increasingly more use Group III (severely hydrotreated) parafinnic base since napthenic crudes are getting harder to come by every year, some use synthetic asphaltenes, some use bio-base (soy) oils and some are silicone compounds.

Believe me when I tell you that anyone in the industry knows EXACTLY what material they are handling. Older equipment (lots still around) may well have been remediated to some level (50ppm in service in some places, usually <2ppm for transportation as non-hazmat up here, not sure of US limits). NOBODY will put anything into their equipment (processing) without a clear chain of custody from sampling to an independant lab analysis. Contaminants in the parts per BILLION can affect surface tension enough to make the fluid un-processible. Silicone is a HUGE contaminant to petro (and bio) fluids as it is a common and powerful surfactant. In today's highly litigous and insurance-dominated business, PCB contamination at ANY detectible level (now down to 0.1ppm for most competent GC labs) won't be tolerated. The financial risks are just too high.

The business of PCB being "in" the transformer (old ones) is quite correct. When such units were flushed many years ago to be classified as "PCB free", there was (is) no way to get the oil that impregnates the insulating system (essentially kraft paper) out, so the rule of thumb was that a unit would "leach back" to 10% of its previous PCB level (usually starting at 40-60%) over time, so anything from an old unit is always highly suspect. Most have been flushed twice to be around today. The big risk is not large transformers (5,000 gallons is actually on the small end, most are designed with fluid capacities in MULTIPLES of 5,000 USG since that is one 5 axle load) since everything about them is HIGHLY monitored. It is the little padmounts and poletops that are usually loosely followed. That is why nobody in the used oil business will touch a drop of transformer oil without testing FIRST - and even then only from a known and trusted source.

While it would be nice to think that this stuff is treated royally in the post-first-use stages, in fact the majority will end up as fuel in cement kilns or asphalt paving heaters. It is highly prized for that, and I am disturbed to the limit on thinking that there is 50ppm stuff in the US (NOT happening in Canada, because you can't haul it without registering as hazmat) that sees this use. Obviously anything above that level SHOULD be getting proper treatment (but by the sound of some of these posts, it obviously is NOT). Unfortunately, the old saw still applies to many generators of used oil: "the solution to pollution is dillution".

As far as getting out of a transformer into the waste stream: modern transformers do not typically "breathe" to the atmosphere at all. The oil remains dehydrated and degassed under a diaphragm. When it DOES accumulate sufficient gasses and water (that is in a few parts per MILLION of water...far, far dryer than what we get at the pump) it is mechanically processed to remove them and circulated back into the unit without ever being exposed to air. It is NOT highly formulated (i.e. has very few additives) and MOST (i.e. napthenics) are treated with 0.07% (IEEE Type I) or up to 0.3% (Type II) DBPC - ditertiary-butyl-para-cresol - that is an antioxidant found in diesel. The life of insulating fluids is closely monitored, and in large units, once the inhibitor is seen being used up, it is usually re-inhibited and processed, not disguarded. In extreme cases (some moron did not sample for a VERY long time) it is treated by adsorption to remove polar compounds, re-inhibited and re-used.

What I am saying in that rather long diatribe is that there are usually only two reasons that oil is being removed: from a large unit - it has failed or reached end of life and is coming out of service or the utility has accumulated a lot of small bits from little transformers and it is too badly contaminated to be used. These are both VERY HIGH RISK situations since we are now talking about old stuff that might have been around since before the war.

As far as burning in a diesel: while there is no doubt the engine will run, the story for this, lubricating oil, or a host of other stray formulated petroleum hydrocarbons is that the additives are not necessarily what you want in the engine, and the contaminants are a crapshoot at best. Also, what makes you think you are getting the relatively burnable base stocks instead of asphaltene or silicone contaminated JUNK oil (as I hope I have pointed out, if YOU are getting it, it is NOT from the highly controlled part of the business).

In summary: unless you know EXACTLY what you are doing and what you are handling, only a fool or a pro will even THINK of dealing with this stuff.
 

aja8888

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PCB rules in the U.S. are regulated under TSCA (Toxic Substances Control Act) and have the following limits for PCB equipment:

0 - <50 PPM - PCB free
50 - 500 PPM - PCB Contaminated
>500 PPM - PCB

There are only a few (3?) incinerators permitted by EPA in the USA that are allowed to incinerate PCBs. The big push on PCB disposal was in the 1980s here. Now it's anyone's guess what is left out there and whether or not PCB equipment is managed properly. Sad to say, I see a lot of questionable stuff in my work.

Tony
 

Pat Dolan

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There are only a few (3?) incinerators permitted by EPA in the USA that are allowed to incinerate PCBs. The big push on PCB disposal was in the 1980s here. Now it's anyone's guess what is left out there and whether or not PCB equipment is managed properly. Sad to say, I see a lot of questionable stuff in my work.

Tony
I was posting in a hurry before turning in last night, and I think I might have implied that sodium remediation is or could be an "end solution" for PCB remediation. It is not that easy to get the reaction to go "all of the way", but it CAN reliably get below the "non-detectable" (i.e. 2ppm) level. It is normally used to reduce PCB level for in service units, since they have (as per Tony's post) much higher allowable levels and there is no "disposal" of the oil. Not done much anymore.

There are several other destruction (plasma, vitrification) or conversion (sodium, hydrogenation) methods as some countries do NOT allow incineration. Sad to say, most old tranformers end up in China for recovery of the copper and steel, and I can imagine there is no such thing as dealing AT ALL with the PCB content.
 

aja8888

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I was posting in a hurry before turning in last night, and I think I might have implied that sodium remediation is or could be an "end solution" for PCB remediation. It is not that easy to get the reaction to go "all of the way", but it CAN reliably get below the "non-detectable" (i.e. 2ppm) level. It is normally used to reduce PCB level for in service units, since they have (as per Tony's post) much higher allowable levels and there is no "disposal" of the oil. Not done much anymore.

There are several other destruction (plasma, vitrification) or conversion (sodium, hydrogenation) methods as some countries do NOT allow incineration. Sad to say, most old tranformers end up in China for recovery of the copper and steel, and I can imagine there is no such thing as dealing AT ALL with the PCB content.
I was strictly mentioning incinerators that were permitted to accept PCBs (Rollins Environmental Services at the time - Deer Park, TX and Baton Rouge, LA facilities).

You should see where a lot of old well bore pipe with high NORM readings gets shipped to for reclamation. :rolleyes:
 

Rapidrob

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Question about Transformer oil?

If this is a banned topic,please delete,and sorry for the mistake.
I work where we have to pay to get rid of hundreds of gallons of Shell DIALA Transformer oil http://s03.static-shell.com/content...-here-shell-diala-product-family-brochure.pdf ( a year. NONE of our oils have PCB's in them.
Some of the guys in AZ say they have burned this oil in their diesel engines.
The oil is thin,extremely clean and will not gel up in the cold. Its purpose is to insulate the windings of the copper wires in a high voltage transformer from shorting out under a high current.
When we replace the transformers from obsolescence, we have to pay to get rid of the oil. For no other reason than than it is a pain to drain the 600 pound transformers.
Has anyone here,or know of anyone who is using this oil in their Diesel engines? Would a mixture of this oil be a better idea?
Or is it a waste of time and will damage the engine/FIP?
 

Mark

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Yep, I'm dead man walking...

Many years ago as a youngster, I preheated my grandmother's oven without looking inside it first. It turned out that there was an oil filled electric frying pan in the oven and when heated it leaked a large quantity of it's oil onto the bottom of the oven and the electric heating element. Boy-o-boy did it smoke!

We spent the rest of the day trying to sop up the mess and turning the oven back on to try to burn the stuff off.

The next day my grandmother called the manufacturer of the electric frying pan (West Bend) and they told her not to mess with it and they would send out a brand new stove. I think the stove appeared the very next day and the old one was hauled away by the company.

So, most likely, PCBs, smoke - furans, yep...
 

JohnWilder

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Dioxins and furans are hardly two of the "most toxic substances know to man"! They are light weights compared to botulin.
 

Rapidrob

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Sorry I posted the topic on my smart phone and did not see the other topic posted.
Good thing too, folks really get nasty here on this topic.
Not allowed on my shooting site.
 

VeeDubTDI

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A friend of my father has been swimming, literally, in transformer oil for 50 years. He used to wreck old hydro transformers for scrap, and burned the oil in all his diesel equipment. I guess he is some kind of exception, as he appears to be immune. I expect it will be the booze that kills him... Lesson here would be don't drink to excess...? :)

That's figuratively, not literally. Literally would be filling a pool with transformer oil and diving in. ;)
 

VeeDubTDI

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Will it work in your '96 Passat? Yes, it will probably work just fine for an unknown amount of time. I don't know if there is a viscosity difference between it and D2 and whether or not that unknown difference will have long-term effects on the fuel injection system.

Are there other consequences of burning transformer oil in your diesel car? Yes and those consequences have been discussed ad nauseum. They range from road tax evasion to potential health and environment ramifications depending on exactly what's in the oil that is being burned.
 

RDC98tdi

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Since I have a CR TDI and my DPF is still in place, I don't plan on ever running BIO or ex-tranny oil in my car.

That being said, I am glad this thread didn't get closed / deleted / locked etc. It has been a good and interesting read, even with all the name calling :p

I get the general gist that it is a bad and unsafe idea, but it is good that we are able to at least discuss it (without promoting it as a good idea of course.)
 

rwolff

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Hmmm... I also know of someone that works in the energy busness and has been brining home unused clean transformer oil from work to burn in his waste oil fired boiler for a few years...
I have to ask - if it was UNUSED, why would an energy company be trying to dispose of it? Sounds like someone's using stolen fuel.
 
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