Car won't start troubleshooting

sempled

New member
Joined
Jun 28, 2010
Location
derry ireland
TDI
golf
emergency jumping of car when relay 109 goes

Hi

I read somewhere else jumper between 12-28 relays. It's just my car is at a temp address and would like a way of starting it on fri and moving it to my parents house if i have to. My 109 is due in on thurs from the dealer but if it doesn't work then id like a way of moving the car.

If i did jump it bypassing the relay 109 how many miles could you drive it for? (is 150 out of the question). As i said it completly broke at my temp address and would like to take the car with me on fri so I dont have to come back for it, and someone doesn't break into it (although if they get it started I'd probs let them keep it haha lol)





1. You were driving along in your car and the engine died and won't start, or it just won't start but may start after sitting for awhile.

The basics.

The fuel being injected is controlled by the computer, but the computer needs electricity to run.

Troubleshooting.

This is easy. Turn the key to "ON" and watch the glow plug light. It looks something like this:



If the some lights come on but the Glow plug light does not come on you have a relay 109 problem. If NO lights come on, you have a power problem so start at the battery and start checking.

The earlier cars had a bad problem with the main power relay which is numbered 109 in the relay panel. The original relay was black, and the updated one is gray.

This relay supplies power to lots of stuff including the main computer. If this relay fails, it is just like the key was turned off. The thing is that the problem is a bad solder joint that opens and closes with heat. Often if you let the car sit for a bit, it will cool back down and that crack will close and you can run again until it heats up enough to open that crack. Some people have had luck opening the relay and resoldering the cracked joints, others have been able to test it by jumpering the terminals 30 and 87 in the relay holder using a piece of wire. You can see the numbers on the relay next to the terminals. Use caution with any temporary repairs or don't drive very far from a fire station.

Check to see if yours is black. If it is, this is a very high failure rate item so it is safe to assume that's the problem and either fix the black relay if you are capable or just drop the $10 and buy a new one. If it isn’t the problem now, it will be in the future, so this is worth replacing.

Here are some old posts about it:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=199038

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=35854

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=300195&postcount=1

It’s also possible that the engine will die and not restart, or it may just not start. Just remember to look for that tell-tale glow plug light on the dash.

If the glow plug light comes on, see #4 below.
 

rdkern

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 21, 2004
Location
Humboldt Co CA
TDI
Passat 1997 silver (sold after 11 years), Jetta 2000 atlantic blue
If you jumped the pins, I'm imagine you'd be able to go as far as you wanted once it was started. I don't know how good it would be for the ecu to be powered up for days on end, so I'd suggest you remove the bridge when you're at your location.
 

timtenor

Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2010
Location
Haan Germany
TDI
Golf TDI 1996
Thanks for your knowledge info on the Golf TDI.
I have 1 1996 Golf TDI that will not start. I have replaced the relay 109 and all the dashboard lights (including glow plug light) now come on. The engine turns over freely and the battery is good, so, no starter motor problem.
From cold the only way to start the car is by bump starting it. So, far this has always worked. I have to park on a hill before I go to bed.
From warm the engine has to turn over for about 10 seconds before it will fire. It seems like much longer and is obviously not doing the starter motor much good.
Once running the car is very reliable - does not stall or stutter - runs perfectly normal, so, I am assuming that it is not a fuel problem.
I have located the air valve but on this model there is no black lever, just pipes. Is there any way to check that this valve is open, or force it to open, without removing it?
Any light that you can shed on this matter would be greatly appreciated.

Timothy Evans
Timtenor@web.de
 

Mark G

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 12, 2008
Location
DE
TDI
1999 Beetle TDI
I had a no start that turned out to be the ignition switch. My cruise control also stopped working properly at the same time. I had a hard time believing it was either part since I changed both of them when I originally bought my car. This time I purchased the OEM parts and installed them. Hopefully they'll last longer than two years.

Mark
 

matthewcurran

New member
Joined
Nov 8, 2010
Location
buckna northern ireland
TDI
bora
intermitting fault 2004 bora cuts out whilst driving

i currently have a vw bora 2003. about 6 weeks ago it cut out while i was driving. i recovered the car and using the launch x431 diag machine read the code 17978, the only code. i replaced the instrument cluster (panel) re-programmed the keys and all okay untill sunday where it done the exact same thing and again left the same fault code. i cannot appear to find any bad connections, and am left scratching my head?? looking for any ideas?????????? plus went to the car next morning and it started no problem. need to get to the bottom of this, don't want to be left stranded!! again!!
 
Last edited:

BobnOH

not-a-mechanic
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
central Ohio
TDI
New Beetle 2003 manual
........ read the code 17978...
from the Ross-Tech wiki, is that ECU power supply the dreaded relay 109?
17978/P1570/005488 - Engine Start Blocked by Immobilizer

Possible Symptoms


  • Engine starting but stalling immediately
Possible Causes


  • Key(s) not matched
  • Instrument Cluster not matched
  • Engine Control Unit (ECU) not matched
  • Engine Control Unit (ECU) Power Supply faulty
Possible Solutions


  • Check for Fault Codes in Immobilizer itself (part of Instrument Cluster in many cars, but separate Immobilizer Control Module in some)
  • Check Immobilizer Measuring Values (usually in Instrument Cluster OR Immobilizer Control Module)
  • Match Key(s)/Instrument Cluster/Engine Control Unit (ECU)
  • Check Engine Control Unit (ECU) Power Supply (Relay)
Special Notes


  • In case of Engine Starting Issues please make sure that you are really experience an Immobilizer related Problem! Even if the Immobilizer engages, the Engine will still start fine but cut out after 2-3 Seconds. If you are NOT experiencing this behavior (e.g. Engine doesn't start at all) your Problem is very likely NOT Immobilizer related.
  • May be stored in Combination with 01176 - Key: Signal too Low in Immobilizer Control Module.
  • If no other immobilizer related fault codes are stored and the immobilizer related meas. blocks are fine except Engine Start not allowed, in rare occasions it helps to try cold-booting the car. Remove both battery cables from the battery. Short the battery cables together (away from the battery) for about 15 seconds. Reconnect the battery. (Example)
 

Turbine_Doc

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 29, 2004
Location
Gautier, Ms
TDI
2001 New Beetle 1.9 TDI red auto trans
One more I'll add to this list of possibilities while remote;

it can happen as it just about did me in, on my wife's 2001 VW New Beetle after cleaning intake & VNT vanes; I got a no start condition as if the anti shudder valve was stuck, pulled the intake tube off nope it's wide open, multiple different things tried no joy,

Talked to some others here on the forum their thoughts were I got junk in a valve possibly stuck open or maybe bent valve or piston rod due to hard piece of carbon.

I did a compression check #1 cyl 0 psi, 130# on 2-3-4 okay something is wrong, pulled head took to machine shop #1 intake valve was imbedded with carbon and head flow in total was 1/3-1/2 of what flow should be about 5# of crud removed from the head, installed a new #1 intake valve since it was impregnated with crud did a light grind on seats and deck, new cam Frank06 recommended to go with my new followers, new followers, Head & other gaskets-bolts-tensioner-waterpump belts from HermTDI. Basically a top end rebuild.

Put it all back together went for start nope not gonna run, just for grins I put the compression checker back on it 130# each hole, well you need 500# or so to start well, I talked to Frank06 he suggested to squirt in some ATF to get good seal and crank minimum of 10x to build pressure hey 620# life is good #1 hole, move to #2 hole 0 psi Hey that's not rite same on 2-3-4 finally when checking # 4 I can see compr gage it's pulsing to 130# but not holding for full pressure build.

Crap the gage fitting is leaking down, I get a replacement under warranty it works for 1 set of readings then doesn't work, now I'm looking at it in detail, the Schrader valve in the glow plug adapter test fitting isn't holding, I had 9 adapters in the set so I swapped valves out and got a good reading on # 2 for a while.

Well I surmise what is going on the valves in the adapter fittings used are the valves intended for gasser compression levels as I'd get good readings to about 300 psi then get goofy readings after that. Source of the tool if you haven't figured it out was Harbor Freight yes I know get what you pay for, sometimes you get good stuff there and others as in this case it was junk.

Anyway once I decided to ignore what that POS was telling me, I started "pulling fuel, and again" as detailed earlier in this thread, each time the car would run a little better/longer until I got to the point it would run & die about 2 seconds into the start, so at that point I knew timing was right and I was getting fuel, one thing left air.

Filter clean, anti shudder open & clean, intake spotless clean William Tango Foxtrot, on a hunch, maybe shudder flapper is closing on run, so I positioned a screwdriver in between the shudder link and the EGR valve body viola "It's Alive".

Hmnn what would cause the anti shudder solenoid to be "hot" with key on, as I ponder this dilemma my buddy Greg aka Lubrication Specialist answers my appeal for help.

"Tim check to see you have the correct connectors on the correct device plug don't ask how I know to ask you that question", Ahaa say's the blind squirrel finding the nut.

Well as it turns out after additional consultation with HermTDI (who was holding my hand all way as I went thru this, Thanks Herm moral support most appreciated) the New Beetle is different from other TDI's in that the plugs for the CCV tube heater and the anti-shudder solenoid not only are the same connector that have sufficient harness length to allow them to be swapped.

The CCV tube heater is constant 12V on with key on to prevent ice from forming in cold weather of the condensation in the vented gasses, so with wrong plug on the anti shudder it was being commanded to close but did not do so until sufficient vacuum was built on the system as engine would come to speed, allowing start & stall.

Kicked my behind but got it fingered out now, swapped the plugs to the correct connectors life is good, expensive way to learn Harbor Freight compression tester for Diesel is junk, I went to Schrader web site last night and saw they make a special valve core for high pressure, I suspect HF not using a Diesel pressure rated valve in their adapters.

Wasn't a total waste of time I'm far smarter than I was before on this it won't bite me again, me posting the lesson here possibly it will help another to not go down same path; and as crudded up as the head was I'm hoping regained mpg with help pay for what I have into it.
 

Conan

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2010
Location
Denver
TDI
2003 GLS TDI
Kicked my behind but got it fingered out now, swapped the plugs to the correct connectors life is good, expensive way to learn Harbor Freight compression tester for Diesel is junk, I went to Schrader web site last night and saw they make a special valve core for high pressure, I suspect HF not using a Diesel pressure rated valve in their adapters.
A masterpiece of troubleshooting patience! Very timely-- I was going to buy the HF diesel compression tester, but got talked out of it by a snowstorm. I'll think I'll pass, based on your experience. Are you saying that these things have Schrader valves, as in tire valves? I can't imagine those things would hold anything like 300PSI.
 

DanG144

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 2, 2007
Location
Chapin, South Carolina, USA
TDI
2005 A4 Jetta 5spd
They do have schrader valves, as do all compression testers I have used.

My cheap HF compression tester works fine - unless I forget to stop the engine from fueling. Then the cylinder that I am testing will fire. The schrader valve has never survived this, but the gauge still works. I just replace the schrader valve from one of the other fittings that I never use.

Did you forget to unplug the head connector for a PD, or remove the wire to the fuel cutoff solenoid on a VE engine?
 

bbinbc

Active member
Joined
Apr 26, 2007
Location
Victoria, BC
TDI
2003 New Beetle TDI
My PD would not start

My PD would not start yesterday morning, it was running fine the the day before. I tried it again today same thing the motor cranked over fine but it wouldn't start. Then there was a beep and the oil light came on the car was parked on a slope, so I checked the oil and it was down just below minimum. I put half a liter in and tried it again and it turned over for a few seconds and then started so I moved car to level ground shut it off for a few minutes rechecked the oil level. Tried to restart the motor and and it started right away let it warm up all seems good. I guess the combination of being low on oil and parked on slope was enough for the computer to get enough info to prevent it from starting when it knows the the oil level is too low.
I do check the oil regularly, obviously not regular enough.
 

DanG144

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 2, 2007
Location
Chapin, South Carolina, USA
TDI
2005 A4 Jetta 5spd
BB, this is not a likely scenario.

The car will start with the oil pressure light on.

It is more likely you have a problem with a fuel pump.

Check that your lift pump works when you turn the key to ON. You should hear it for a second under the right rear seat.

If that is reliably running, it may be your tandem pump worn, allowing fuel leak down.
 

bbinbc

Active member
Joined
Apr 26, 2007
Location
Victoria, BC
TDI
2003 New Beetle TDI
Thank you for all that information. My car is running and I tried to duplicate the problem that I had on Friday morning. I used the car yesterday without issue. So I parked it on the same place on my driveway left it for a similar amount of time. I just went out and tried it and it started right away.
I had a letter from Volkswagen Canada on friday apparently there is a recall on my car. Emissions Service Action 28F6/T9. Check / Replace Glow Plugs and update ECM software. I am going to book it in shortly. I am also thinking about getting Vag-Com for myself just to keep an eye on these things. Thanks again for the info much appreciated. Cheers
 

DanG144

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 2, 2007
Location
Chapin, South Carolina, USA
TDI
2005 A4 Jetta 5spd
The in tank electric fuel pump often becomes intermittent as it fails.

If you really need to get going, slap the bottom of the fuel tank or the top of the pump assembly. This shock often seats the electric brushes long enough to get the car moving.
 

bbinbc

Active member
Joined
Apr 26, 2007
Location
Victoria, BC
TDI
2003 New Beetle TDI
Still starting and running fine, it go's to the dealer tomorrow for its recall on the glowplugs and ECU update. So I will see what comes of that, I am going to ask for a list of the the fault codes. I was checking out Bora parts site and I am going to order a lift pump from them to keep on hand!
 

Greenerbbb

Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2011
Location
Saint John NB, Canada
TDI
2004 Jetta TDI
In respect to "situation #9" Great write up and how to with excellent pictures! I just wanted to let anyone else know that is doing this that if you do not have a Might vac that a " Flow-and-go" worked great for me! A bit of a work out on the fore arms tho haha. I just went to canadian tire and picked up a piece of hose that was $3.99 and some hose clamps for a $1 each and huked on the same as discribed in #9 above. Good luck and hopfully this will help someone!:)
 

subman

Active member
Joined
Sep 1, 2006
Location
North Dakota
TDI
2002 Jetta and 2006 Jetta
#7 problem

I had the #7 problem with my 2002 jetta
I first tried disconnecting the battery cables then holding them together for 5 seconds, no good, then tried holding them together for 20 seconds still no go. Finally I tried turning the key on for 10 plus minutes with a battery charger on the battery... it worked. Thanks ever so much for this advice as I don't know where I would have turned to at 1am and over 200 miles from a dealer.
 

mark h

Active member
Joined
Apr 12, 2007
Location
malibu, ca
TDI
91 Syncro 16 Doka AFN TDI
i have a 91 vw doka syncro with a 98 1.9 AFN TDI. A few weeks ago I was up in the snow and it had trouble starting. The problem happened again over the weekend. It would take a long time cranking it over before it finally would start. Drove home last night with no problems but this morning it would turnover but not fire. Any ideas?
 

NovaShepherd

New member
Joined
Feb 25, 2011
Location
Ashburn, VA
TDI
2011 SportWagen
Another #7:

Just happened last week on my 8-day off the lot 2011 JSW TDI. Was driving through Ohio on 70 in ice and snow, stopped in Columbus to get some coffee. Went into Tim Horton's, got coffee, came back out, unlocked the car with the keyfob, started the engine, and got "Key Not in Range" on the MFI. Was towed to local VW dealership who did a "capacitive discharge" (unhooking battery cables and touching together) then the issue resolved itself. Was first time they had seen it on the 2011s.

According to the dealer (who isn't my normal one and I don't necessarily trust), the keyfob's 2nd keypair for the immobilizer was out of sync with the car, and doing the discharge will clear that.
 
Last edited:

volmaniac

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2003
Location
McFadden's Ford, Stones River NMP M'boro, TN
TDI
02 Golf GLS
Thanks whitedog and others for working on this tread this (I know you have not posted in about 2 years and you are missed). We had a NSC #4 on our 1999.5 jetta and it was due to corrosion on the ground under the battery (although it really did not look that bad, but she fired right up after cleaning those grounds).
 

hrjack99

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 13, 2009
Location
Athen, Tx
TDI
2011 Jetta, 2004 Jetta
IP pressure

I am curious to know if anyone knows it there is someplace to buy a pressure gauge with a one way valve and relief valve so I can see what pressure my IP is putting out. Beetle will not start and this would be a good trouble shooting aid.
Thanks,
 

slam

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2008
Location
San Jose, California
TDI
1996 Passat TDI B4V Wagon
I don't think you'd need a relief valve, just a pressure gauge somewhere inline. But at 14,000+ psi of pressure that's going to be a special gauge.

I am certainly no expert by far but I have been around the forums for a while. I have not heard of low pressure from a pump. It's usually either good or there's no pressure at all. If you crack open an injector nut and crank, do you get fuel squirting out? Then your pressure is probably good and you need to go through the troubleshooting FAQ to source out other problems.
 

rdkern

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 21, 2004
Location
Humboldt Co CA
TDI
Passat 1997 silver (sold after 11 years), Jetta 2000 atlantic blue
Thank you slam for coming forth. I was going to ask if hrjack99 had actually looked through the 329 (now) part thread. Problems are probably found in the first 25-50 responses. I'll see if Whitedog can come back - I miss him too.
 

hrjack99

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 13, 2009
Location
Athen, Tx
TDI
2011 Jetta, 2004 Jetta
no start

I seem to be getting air from the IP fuel in line. It must be coming from the IP so I may have a leak on the return side lines.
 

hotshot

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Location
alabama
TDI
2002 jetta
situation #7 for me here too. I tried all the tips and the one that worked for me was turning the key to on and leaving it on for a while. (pulled the e brake to keep the headlights off and then went in and watched the nascar indy race for a while). i had tried every other trick on here and that one was the right one for me...thank you all
 

hotshot

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Location
alabama
TDI
2002 jetta
my problem happened sunday morning and here it is tuesday morning and i got locked out again. i just drove my truck to work this morning cause i didnt have time to wait it out.
 

BobnOH

not-a-mechanic
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
central Ohio
TDI
New Beetle 2003 manual
I believe sit#7 can sometimes be solved by removing both battery cables and touching them together for a few seconds. Apparently it discharges (resets) certain capacitors in the immobilizer circuit.
 

hotshot

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Location
alabama
TDI
2002 jetta
yeah, that doesnt work for me. ive tried it first every time but i always have to go back to the long wait with the key on
 
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