Need advice about CV joints

Should I switch the inner CV joints on my OE axles, or buy whole new axles made in China?

I have a 2003 Jetta TDi wagon with 190K miles I bought last fall and have been fixing up as time and money have allowed.

After replacing TB, clutch, brakes, and turbo, I can now drive the car without setting codes or worrying about catastrophic failure, so I'm starting to focus on smaller issues.

When I step on it, there is a lumpy, shuddery vibration in the car and the steering wheel. Also, when I'm at highway speed, there is an extra noise rather like the sound of a propane torch from the left side of the car. This sound shifts some, like a torch in a a little breeze. These two (vibration and noise) may be related or not.

I'm pretty sure the vibration is coming from worn inner CV joints. If I swap them, they will be wearing on the opposite faces as before, and they should last another 190K miles. I've already purchased the boot kits to do this.

However, what if I do this, and the noise is still there? Probably wheel bearings -- But could it be the outer CV joint? Even if the noise isn't from the outer CV joints, how much longer will they last?

I'm reluctant to use Chinese Replacement Auto Parts, but brand new axles would help me pinpoint the noise if it's still there after installing the new axles.

What do you think?

I like raxles.

but ended there after a local mechanic swore the noise was wheel bearings, which I then replaced first.

not fond of the low cost alternatives.

if you want to try the swap, go for it, seemed to me like a lot of work.

I would try swapping the inner joints side-to-side. If it takes care of the problem it is likely to last longer than the Chinese crapxles and you won't get the annoying 1800 RPM vibration that they are bound to create. You will also save the price of the junky axles.

But, I would also arm myself with quality axle joint boots (inner joint) as they are probably near the end of their useful life. Look for checking and tears especially near the small end of the boot.

OEM boot kits are my favorites cause the parts (almost*) always fit and, if you get them at the on-line VW dealers, they are not a whole lot more than the aftermarket. Some of the aftermarket kits I have run into would seem to be made up by the vendors and the band clamps are hit and miss as far as sizing. That is a terrible thing to find out once you have things apart. Make sure to get the appropriate axle hardware...a nut in your case.
Include the VIN where they ask for it and they will be able to search for the build and know exactly what was originally used on the car.

If you do not have the band clamp tool, a compound action tile nipper from Home Depot can do the job. 10-15 bucks, I think.

* -- I once did wind up with a kit someone must have returned and it was picked over missing a clamp and had a partially crimped clamp.

JETaah said:

I would try swapping the inner joints side-to-side. If it takes care of the problem it is likely to last longer than the Chinese crapxles and you won't get the annoying 1800 RPM vibration that they are bound to create. You will also save the price of the junky axles.

But, I would also arm myself with quality axle joint boots (inner joint) as they are probably near the end of their useful life. Look for checking and tears especially near the small end of the boot.

OEM boot kits are my favorites cause the parts (almost*) always fit and, if you get them at the on-line VW dealers, they are not a whole lot more than the aftermarket. Some of the aftermarket kits I have run into would seem to be made up by the vendors and the band clamps are hit and miss as far as sizing. That is a terrible thing to find out once you have things apart. Make sure to get the appropriate axle hardware...a nut in your case.
Include the VIN where they ask for it and they will be able to search for the build and know exactly what was originally used on the car.

If you do not have the band clamp tool, a compound action tile nipper from Home Depot can do the job. 10-15 bucks, I think.

* -- I once did wind up with a kit someone must have returned and it was picked over missing a clamp and had a partially crimped clamp.

Click to expand...

Use the correct tool for the job. While nippers look similar they are missing the anvil part that pushes on the head of the clamp while you are crimping.

Amazon has them for about 25$ Lisle 30800 is one such tool.

JETaah said:

I would also arm myself with quality axle joint boots (inner joint)...

Click to expand...

I am thinking about doing this job tomorrow, so I wanted to find the parts locally. I went to my local BAP-GEON store and got what they had:

Left: Rein BKN0030R (made in Germany), including the boot, grease, seal, axle nut, dish washer, and c-clip.


Right: GKN 300489 (made in Italy) including everything the left kit had plus 6 bolts and a extra dish washer with a serrated inner edge.


I'm a little confused about the band clamp tool, because no bands are included with either kit. I'm also not sure why new bolts would come with one kit but not the other.

I didn't think of going to the dealer. In my experience, half the time they don't have the part in stock and would have to order it, and the other half, they charge almost double the online price for the same part. The dealer parts departments are closed today and will probably also be closed tomorrow for Memorial Day. So if I do the job this weekend, I'm stuck with what I got. But if I wait until next weekend, I would have time to order parts and have them arrive.

So -- AFAIK, I have quality parts -- at least they are European, not Chinese. It still comes down to my original question, though:

• Do I invest time into swapping/rebuilding the inner CV joints? This costs less and retains the OE axles, but if the "propane torch" noise persists, it will be hard to determine if it's coming from the outer CV's or the wheel bearings. Also, the outer CV's could wear out soon, making my work now for nothing.
• Or do I install new axles and be done with it? This would be less work, make diagnosis of the noise easier, and it would give me new outer joints. But it would cost more and might be inferior quality.

meerschm said:

I like raxles.

Click to expand...

I checked into Raxles. Looks like they only sell direct via phone orders, and they don't list prices. So I have no idea if a pair of them would be $150 or $800. I would pay maybe up to $250 or $300 for a pair of quality axles made in North America or Europe with no Chinese components.

yea, you have to call Marty.

mine were $250 per axle, (each side) for my 2009. they reuse the OEM axle, and put new OEM CV joints on. all greased up, sealed up, and ready to put on the car.

sent with loaner sockets for the bolt in the end to mount, (with the bolt), a set of the triple square bolts for the inners, and a loaner socket to put them in.

I think that price was plus shipping, but included return shipping for the tools and your old axle (assuming it is original equipment)

Outers use clamps, inners do not according to this site. http://idparts.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=76_144 I replaced joints that were pitted in my car. One inner on one shaft. One outer on the other shaft. GKN joints which are the OEM supplier.

If the boots are intact I might not be so inclined to think it is bad CV joints.

Note that a bad tire can be loud as heck. Try swapping tires front to back. I had a rear tire that was cupping. It was pretty out of balance. When it ended up on the front of the car after being balanced it seemed to me to be louder than when it was in the back of the car. It has lost a lot of its noise in 10,000 miles on the front of the car. The ridges have worn down.

Most people find CV joints click, but I suppose if they are really bad they can make other noises.

Thanks for the info. Raxles sound like they might be more money than I can spend right now. I did send them an e-mail asking for a quote (since they are closed today). I think I have original axles, but I would have to double check to be sure. I suppose I should do that pretty soon; if in fact I already have cheap Chinese axles, I should just throw on another set and not bother switching the inner CV joints.

That makes sense about the bands only being for the outer joints.

The tires are Continentals with only a couple thousand miles on them. They were take-offs from a brand new VW, still had molding squeeze-out fins in the middle of the tread when I got them. That doesn't preclude a tire problen, though.

The inner CV joints rarely fail before the outers will. What make you think it's the inners?

In my case I've killed two inners and one outer. The inners make a hell of a loud tick noise under load when they've had it. A wobble/vibration is more likely if an axle is bent in my experience.

shoebear said:

I'm a little confused about the band clamp tool, because no bands are included with either kit. I'm also not sure why new bolts would come with one kit but not the other.

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You are correct. As an example of some aftermarket kits, I was referring to the outer joints which do have the band clamps.

I am also referring to an on-line VW dealer such as thevwpartsstore.com. They have the kit for $30.29 for the inner joint.

Regarding the pictured kits...
The CV joint (6) bolts....measure to see if they are the same length as the OEM ones. I have found them to sometimes be shorter than the OEM depending on the kit.

Another variance can be the thickness of the snap ring and the belvedere washer that preloads the CV joint to the snap ring. I have run into some that were thicker than the original and were not able to used.

GKN and Rein are reliable products so long as the kits are not being assembled by a vendor you are probably alright.

Jokila...
Good to know about the band clamp tool...The lack of the anvil feature on the nippers is a problem occasionally but none that I have installed have come off. It depends on how accurately sized the clamp is for the application. The band clamp tools that I have run across have been really cheap and did not work as they should. I will check out the Lisle.

sisyphus said:

The inner CV joints rarely fail before the outers will. What make you think it's the inners?

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Good question. Vibration does not vary with steering angle, and no clicky-clicky.

Seatman said:

A wobble/vibration is more likely if an axle is bent in my experience.

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Good point. I see evidence of minor collision damage on the front. For example, all three intercooler mounts were broken off, along with the tab mount of the pancake charge air pipe. The front bumper has small cracks on the right side, and the bottom bumper valence is gone. So it appears that it hit something on the right front corner. (I replaced the intercooler last weekend when I replaced the turbocharger.)

Can I check for bent axle with a straightedge?

One clue is that it only vibrates when under load. Coasting is nice and smooth.

shoebear said:

One clue is that it only vibrates when under load. Coasting is nice and smooth.

Click to expand...

Well, yeah I'd be suspicious of the axles but both sides at once, not so much. Try a straight edge on either side, see what you can see?

other things can manifest themselves as axles , especially vibrations
first , check left engine mount and dogbone . remove the dogbone and rock the engine back and forth.
check the inner joint heat shield , it can come apart and rub on the joint making a scrapping noise and eventually tear a hole in the boot

and don't put whole axle assemblies from China in your car . it may sounds like less work than rebuilding the old one but you will be under the car again

Unfortunately, my back started hurting last night, so I'd better not get under the car for a few days. Sounds like that's best anyway since I have homework to do.

Dimitri, I just had the heat shield off last weekend when I replaced the turbo. It was nice and tight when I removed it, and I put it back tight also. If I remove the dogbone and rock the engine, what am I looking for?

I will do this and also check the axles with a straightedge when my back feels better. I found a guy on Craigslist with 2001 axles with no inner CV's. If these are cheap, I may go get them. He says the outer CVs are good; so it would give me spare axles in case one of mine is bent, plus spare outer CV joints.

In the last couple of days, I heard good things from two sources about AutoZone's DuraLast Gold replacement axles, which are about $70/each. If these are quality axles, I would much rather go that route than swap the inner CV's on my existing axles. Comments?

My back is better now; I'll try to get under the car after work and check stuff.

Dimitri, if I remove the dogbone and rock the engine, what am I looking for?

Put the front of the car on jackstands, 5th gear, idle. Observed and felt both axles. There was a slight amount of movement near the right wheel. By "movement", I mean that while observing the spinning shaft, I can see a bit of lateral movement near the outer CV joint. Holding onto the axle, I can feel more vibration in the left axle than the right. Neither issue seems like an obvious problem to me, but what do I know?

Back on the ground, I twisted, pulled, and pushed both axles. The left axle was tight no matter what I did. The left axle had a bit of soft axial play, which I think is the normal movement of the CV joints. It also clunked when I twisted it; but when I stabilized the flange by the transmission, the clunk went away. I think the clunk is gear backlash in the tranny.

So I don't feel any closer to a diagnosis than before.

BTW ...
in the pictured kits for the boots, the Rein kit does not include the proper dished washer that is needed for the axle (the one with the spline notches). Not really monumental cause you can probably reuse the one that is on the axle if the joint was not bouncing around. But, that is what I am talking about regarding the aftermarket kits. Hit and miss sometimes.

If you take the inner joint apart and wipe off the grease you will immediately see if it was 'the' or 'a' problem. Inner joints will have distinct pits on the inner hub where the balls load. You can't miss it. The vibration is the balls rolling in and out of the pits when under load.

Thanks, JETaah, that makes sense.

JETaah said:

... Inner joints will have distinct pits on the inner hub where the balls load. You can't miss it. The vibration is the balls rolling in and out of the pits when under load.

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That is if the CV joint is a problem. Since those pits are on the loaded side of the race, it also explains why, if you think about it, you can swap the inner CV joints side to side to alleviate the problem without buying new parts (unless you need new boot(s)).

Cheers,

PH

I picked up the partial half shafts yesterday. These are VW axles without the inner CV's. The guy selling them used the inner CV's for dropping an ALH into a Pontiac Fiero -- very interesting conversion. I took some photos; if I have time, I'll post them in another thread.

So I'm pretty much committed to the following course of action:

• Disassemble, clean, and inspect the outer CV joints on the axles I bought. Also inspect the axles themselves to make sure they aren't bent.
• Pull both half axles on my car. Disassemble/clean/inspect all CV joints and axles.
• Reassemble axles from the best outer joints and axles, being sure to swap the inner joints.
• Reinstall axles.

This will probably take a few weeks for me to complete.

Question: The outer joints are the same part number. Is there any reason I shouldn't swap those as well? Wouldn't this be preferable? Yet I don't recall anyone discussing or advocating this.

What could it hurt?
The same theory of unused surfaces applies.

Here is a shot of the pitted inner joint hub:



click on the pic to enlarge

If the outers are not showing pits and the ball bearings are nice and shiny bright I see no reason to rotate. When I saw pits I just ordered new joints. I plan on another 10 years for my car. Given that I have pretty low miles right now at 400.000 plus miles, the car should have about 900,000 miles by retirement age. Of course, retirement age depends on if I have enough money saved to live on. I do need to order new seat foam as the foam is worn out prematurely after 12.5 years.

400K miles ? Damn , I am hoping by 450k , I will be getting rid of mine
Just bought a new turbo and camshaft in hopes to make it there

I strongly recommend rebuilding VW axles instead of replacing them with cheap Chinese axles.

Thanks, guys. My daughter graduated from HS this past weekend, so no car work. I'll try to hit it next weekend.