New Dyno results

colucci

Veteran Member
Joined
May 13, 1998
Location
MPLS, MN USA
TDI
Jetta 1998 Green
OK here's tonight's results with last year's added in. All numbers are at the engine and assuming 17% transmission loss.




The short of it: 127 HP and 258 ft-lbs torque!!! That's 37 hp and 109 ft-lbs torque higher than stock.


The long of it: Last year's were done with the Wett chip alone. This year I have a TT cat-back and a bleed to 19 psi sustained. There is a constant 10-12 HP gain across the entire rpm range. What's more the useful HP is extended out to 4500 rpm.

I kind of blew it, though. I adjusted the bleed between runs so I could compare 19 with 24 psi. I didn't have the guy check it before the run and I didn't bleed enough. Run 2 is at 20 psi, which is not enough to even compensate for the "hot engine" fall off.


Overall, I'm pretty pleased with the A3. My need-for-speed addiction is still pretty strong. I think there's a 2.5" downpipe in my future


D'nardo

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98 Jetta TDI: mit Wett chip
Bleed, Shine Racing springs, Bilstein HDs, Hella dual rounds
Descreened, Naylor ramair, Quiafe TBD, 0.72 5th gear
 

BIGJOHNO

Veteran Member
Joined
May 2, 1999
Location
Frozen Tundra
TDI
2010 Golf (Black) mine; 2011 Golf (UGM) hers
I'm not sure how to do the 17% loss math, but it is either 149 hp or 153 hp from the engine? And this is on the A3. So, 250 lb-ft was conservative. Hmm, does anyone with the a4 and all the Skypup mods have a dyno graph?

John
 
S

SkyPup

Guest
For some reason only the top 1/10th of the dyno chart comes up


However, I believe every single pound of torque and HP pounding out of that awesome TDI engine with your mods, way to go! And thanks for showing us what a TDI motor can put out in the proper hands, that is a super smooth power output for sure!

With you higher 5th gear and Quaiffe diff, I bet this is one of the top TDI this side of the Atlantic. Maybe James Sly of European Car can do a write up of your ride for their publication. They sure did make up the ABD TDI for good and it wasn't close to the super slick TDI ride you're piloting!
 

colucci

Veteran Member
Joined
May 13, 1998
Location
MPLS, MN USA
TDI
Jetta 1998 Green
The chart is ENGINE POWER, wheel power is 17% less. At the wheels, I'm getting 105.6 HP and 215.2 ft-lbs torque. Remember, this is a lowly A3


Actually, there's some debate about 15% vs 17% loss, but with the Quaiffe I bet 17% is a pretty good guess.

D'

------------------
98 Jetta TDI: mit Wett chip
Bleed, Shine Racing springs, Bilstein HDs, Hella dual rounds
Descreened, Naylor ramair, Quiafe TBD, 0.72 5th gear
 

Craig

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 8, 1999
Location
Kitchener, Ont., Canada
Interesting that your peak HP is at a much lower RPM than stock specs. Never seen that before.

Got to be a way to do a bleed on the A4 for higher sustained boost.
 

colucci

Veteran Member
Joined
May 13, 1998
Location
MPLS, MN USA
TDI
Jetta 1998 Green
No. I never installed it. If I understand what I read in the instructions, the Dawes valve essentially replaces the electronic wastegate controller. You set the boost that you want the wastegate to open at, otherwise it doesn't open. I decided not to try it, mostly because I'm chicken!


My bleed is $4 fish tank valve from Petsmart. I bleed the boost line that goes into the ECU. It thinks there's less boost than there really is.

D'
 

CFriedriszik

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 9, 1999
Location
Landau, Germany
TDI
See signature
This should be no insult or something, I am just curious:
I have read several times from several people the phrase "at the rear wheels" - is that a standing phrase with no regard to which drivetrain the car actually has (FWD,RWD,AWD) ?
 

colucci

Veteran Member
Joined
May 13, 1998
Location
MPLS, MN USA
TDI
Jetta 1998 Green
I remember SkyPup writing how the GT15 turbo was optimized for low rpm. Notice how the torque drops like a rock after 2000 rpm. I am certain that the VNT 15 has a flatter torque curve. If you could flatten my curve out even 15%, you would see peak power closer to 150 hp.

We need an A4 dyno with torque numbers to really get a good comparison...Mickey? SkyPup? HowardZ?

D'

PS. Just a thought...I have about 20k on my foam RamAir filter. Maybe it needs to be cleaned?
 

TDI Steve

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 18, 1999
Location
LI, NY
TDI
2000 Golf
Incredible....
I'm curious, is it possible to put a car with an automatic transmission on a dyno?
I just got my supersprint exhaust and BMC air filter, I'd like to do a dyno run after they're installed. I'm also planning on removing the MAF screens and whatnot, but I'm going to hold off on the turbo tweak.
Sorry to have babbled about myself...

once again, absolutely incredible!
 

Gary Miyakawa

Admin Emeritus
Joined
Feb 24, 1999
Location
Roswell, Ga
TDI
1998 NB TDI
Colucci,

Great numbers!! One question, how did you record RPMS ???? That was the problem I had with my Dyno runs...

Gary
 
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SkyPup

Guest
I think that the airflow mods alone (K&K, MAF removal, More boost)really improve the torque characteristics of the engine. It moves the torque curve peak up some in rpms but it comes on like a hungry bear. It also sustains the HP increase simultaneously while the torque is falling off. In conjunction with the Wetterauer programmed fuel maps, the turbodiesel low end torque band is significantly strengthened and the HP output is broadened on the top end.

I'll have to admit that the A4 TDI engine is one of the smoothest powerplants I have ever had the pleasure of driving. The application of power is so smooth that it feels like a Wankel rotary engine or a jet turbine.

I would imagine that the my or Gary's A4 is putting out the same torque and maybe a little bit more HP (140+) on the top end. Mostly due to the fact that the VNT is more conducive to top end output since there is no wastegate and the A/R ratio of the turbine section is so much better than the GT version.

One of these days I'll get mine dynoed, in the meantime Gary's is the best representation of what people can do sensibly and easily to their A4 rides. D'Nardo's A3 however is a super sweet setup compared to just about anything else out there!
 
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SkyPup

Guest
I'll have to admit though, if this beast is putting out that kind of power through the "rear wheels", I can't wait to see what is coming off the front wheels!!
LOL
 

colucci

Veteran Member
Joined
May 13, 1998
Location
MPLS, MN USA
TDI
Jetta 1998 Green
Gary, I had to do the conversion from MPH to RPM myself. The formula is;

RPM = MPH * Gear Ratio * Final Drive * 336.14 / wheel diameter(inches)

The 336.14/wheel diam converts mph to wheel rotations per minute. As long as your tires aren't dramatically worn, this will be accurate to better than 1%.

D'
 

JLL

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 7, 1999
Location
Howell, MI
D'nardo, nice work! What info did you use to arrive at a 17% loss. Also what gear did you run for the pulls.
 

colucci

Veteran Member
Joined
May 13, 1998
Location
MPLS, MN USA
TDI
Jetta 1998 Green
JLL, the 17% comes from Per Schroeder's book called VW Sport Tuning for Street and Competition. It's sort of one of the bibles in hopping up watercooled VW's. This is mostly about A2's and some A3's. You would think that over the years, VW would be more efficient in it's power transfer. But I haven't heard anyone saying anything different.

All the runs are in 3rd gear.

D'


------------------
98 Jetta TDI: mit Wett chip
Bleed, Shine Racing springs, Bilstein HDs, Hella dual rounds
Descreened, Naylor ramair, Quiafe TBD, 0.72 5th gear
 
S

SkyPup

Guest
D'Nardo, with that kind of boost now with your bleed set-up, an auxillary or increased intercooler capacity will put you up to HowieZ's. I bet a good intercooler will bring you up to 140hp AND 270 Torque.

That is the next improvement that will pay BIG dividends all the time the engine is running!
 

Peter Cheuk

Gasser :P
Joined
Aug 31, 1998
Location
Daly City, Calif., USA
TDI
'06 Jetta GLI
After seeing this thread, I sent Dick at Dynospot racing an email with a link to this page. When I saw him yesterday, he told me that I was already making more torque but less HP. What? I guess that I never converted the 'at the wheels' horsepower ratings to 'at the flywheel' numbers. He said that we're at the fine-tuning stage of developement, mainly to reduce smoke output (dparnell, happy now?
).

98HP and 220ft*lbs of torque at the wheels.

D'nardo, what, exactly, were the numbers that you used to do the calculations since my car and your car are so similar?
 

JLL

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 7, 1999
Location
Howell, MI
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by colucci:
JLL, the 17% comes from Per Schroeder's book called VW Sport Tuning for Street and Competition.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll have to find a copy. The 17% did sound high to me, especially for a modern front wheel drive gearbox. Dosen't really matter as long as you use the same loss everytime and primarly look at the percent increase. Don't get to caught up in the numbers.
 
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SkyPup

Guest
Just to put our TDI developments in the proper perspective compared to our 'gaser" competition:

GTI 1.8t Chipped: 193hp/238ft lbs
GTI VR6 Chipped: 186hp/203ft lbs

1.8t at the wheel: 167hp/207ft lbs
VR6 at the wheel: 161hp/177ft lbs

NOT TOO SHABY FOR A DIESEL!
 

bhjelt

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 8, 2000
Location
Minneapolis, MN USA
TDI
Jetta GLS, 2002, Silver
Hey now, your diesels are cool, but you're comparing well tweaked TDi's to just chipped 1.8t's.

1.8t with chip, airbox mod, vented wheel liner(for better intercooler efficiency), exhaust will be in the 255lb/ft torque and 210-220 HP range, not bad for 1791cc.

-Brian

------------------
-Brian
'99 Passat 1.8t 5sp
Garrett Stage 1.5 und K&N

'86 Golf GL 1.8L 16V Rallye project

Future Plans:
Looking for a good Dasher to do a Dasher TDI conversion.

It's all about torque under boost.
 

valois

Banned
Joined
Jan 11, 2000
Bring them super 1.8T's down to Carolina on LaborDay weekend and we'll see how they compare at the track to some "tricked" out diesels.
You all are welcome.
 

TDI Steve

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 18, 1999
Location
LI, NY
TDI
2000 Golf
Brian, that means that mod. dollar for dollar, a 1.8T and a TDI are equal in torque (numerically). Horsepower is increased by an equal amount too, but it's a greater percentage in the TDI.

This is becoming a very interesting comparison... track and dyno results will be interesting.
 

bhjelt

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 8, 2000
Location
Minneapolis, MN USA
TDI
Jetta GLS, 2002, Silver
Valois,

I'd love to come hang out with the TDI crowd, but alas I'm starting a new job on Monday and won't have any sort of vacation time for another six months! Maybe D'Nardo will auto-x his TDI? Then we could at least compare times, can even swap cars if D' Nardo is interested so that driver skill differences can be minimized. Let me know...

-Brian

------------------
-Brian
'99 Passat 1.8t 5sp
Garrett Stage 1.5 und K&N

'86 Golf GL 1.8L 16V Rallye project

Future Plans:
Looking for a good Dasher to do a Dasher TDI conversion.

It's all about torque under boost.
 
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