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General Automotive General automotive discussion. This is intended to be a discussion about other not VW and Diesel cars you may have or interested in.

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Old June 15th, 2019, 09:39   #4846
bwilson4web
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Originally Posted by Tin Man View Post
$80 in approximate charging fees for about 700 miles may seem like a lot to us diesel geezers. I get 550 miles on $47 with one 5 minute fillup with my 5-series BMW.
Total estimated EV costs, $80, is for the round trip, 1,400 miles. I'm expecting ~$40 for each 700 mi leg.
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Originally Posted by Tin Man View Post
Just saying. 2.5 hours of charging each way seems somewhat problematic compared to 10 minutes at the fuel station. Thanks for the info. Interesting conference.
The trip planning tool only supports half hour, charging increments. One goal of this trip is to measure the actual times and validate a charging strategy I modeled. The issue is which charging approach is better:
  • Maximum distance charge and drive bypassing chargers
  • Minimum distance charge hopping charger-to-charger
  • Something in between
My charging model suggests the optimum charging time is closer to 16 minutes. This is the SuperCharger profile for my Standard Range Plus Model 3:


So I combined travel time and distance at 65 mph with charging time delay and came up with this optimization curve for fastest travel time:
  • Too frequent charging is cheapest but slows the block-to-block travel time due to ramp-up delay.
  • Too long charging, carries the extra charge past a charger and is slower because of the charge taper delay.
  • There appears to be a 'sweet spot' where the travel time is fastest and cost moderate.

Although complex, this graph shows the tradeoff:


This trip will validate my model with real world data. I also get to attend the conference.

I chose the Standard Range Plus Model 3 because the relatively smaller battery, 2/3d the kWh, 50-55 kWh, and lightest battery weight of the long range trims. The vehicle weight, ~3,711 lbs, maximizes the miles per kWh, ~4 mi/kWh which is the best of the Model 3 trims. FYI, I'm a 'green' as in 'Greenback Yankee dollars kept in my wallet' which is my primary motivator.

Bob Wilson

ps. This car replaced the Prius Prime and it was pretty miserly. For example, the Prius drive home, 1,200 miles, took 22 gallons, ~$55. Being an old man, I took frequent biology breaks for coffee and pee breaks which now overlap with the Model 3 charging.
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Old June 23rd, 2019, 08:30   #4847
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Source: Munro EV trip report

Bob Wilson
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Old June 23rd, 2019, 12:05   #4848
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Thanks for sharing your thoughts on that event. Looks like there was a bunch of info shared!
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Maybe I should pay MYSELF to do bad work on my car!
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Old June 30th, 2019, 13:38   #4849
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Well, let's see: Yesterday, I rode 31.7 miles in just under three hours. I consumed one hot dog, two bananas, three power bars, about a gallon of water, and one beer. Burned about 3000 calories.

Based on other comments about injuries associated with scooters. In Charlotte, we are also seeing a rise in injuries on rental scooters and bikes, mainly because most riders do not have a helmet. NC bike helmet law only covers those under 16. Us old folks are able to decide for ourselves. Myself? I never get on my bike without a helmet. It may not save me from all harm, but it least it might keep what brain is left working correctly.
Looks like there's more to the use of electric scooters than mentioned. Here is a piece about potential liability of the scooter user which is conveniently avoided in the scooter contract:
Quote:
NEW YORK (AP) We've all seen reports about head injuries, traffic accidents and even deaths that electric scooter riders have suffered as the popular new mobility option has pushed onto the streets in more than 100 cities worldwide.

Despite the dangers, riders are exposing themselves to liability and are most likely not insured for the damages they may cause.

A rider's personal health insurance if he or she has it could help defray the cost of their own medical bills in case of an accident.

But it's another matter entirely when a scooter rider hits and injures a pedestrian, damages someone's property or causes a car accident. The rider may be held responsible, and most insurance policies will not cover those expenses.

"Under the standard insurance policy, there's most likely a pretty significant gap in coverage," said Lucian McMahon, senior research specialist for the Insurance Information Institute. "Even if the odds are low, it doesn't mean that something bad might not happen, and owing people money or compensation for injuries that you caused them can get very, very expensive, perhaps even ruinously so."

The two largest scooter companies in the United States Bird and Lime generally place the responsibility for accidents on riders by listing in their rental agreements that riders relieve the companies of liability. Customers must agree to those terms to ride.
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Old June 30th, 2019, 13:41   #4850
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What do you mean by "conveniently" left out of contracts? How else would you want to handle personal responsibility of the rider? No one assumes vehicle manufacturers are liable for damages drivers cause with the vehicles, why would it be any different for scooters?
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Old July 1st, 2019, 03:25   #4851
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What do you mean by "conveniently" left out of contracts? How else would you want to handle personal responsibility of the rider? No one assumes vehicle manufacturers are liable for damages drivers cause with the vehicles, why would it be any different for scooters?
There is an out for the scooter company but not for the customer, putting people at risk for serious liability. Best get an umbrella policy before donning a helmet and riding one of those things.

I doubt people consider the company that markets and profits from these things free of liability, especially if they appear to be inherently unsafe.

The whole issue stinks.
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Old July 1st, 2019, 07:22   #4852
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I doubt that the liability clause is left out of the contract. It's probably buried in there somewhere. Most, if not all, of the renters probably never read through the full rental agreement. I see it as no different than renting a car. Do you know what's covered and by whom if you get in an accident?
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Old July 1st, 2019, 08:52   #4853
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Originally Posted by Tin Man View Post
There is an out for the scooter company but not for the customer, putting people at risk for serious liability. Best get an umbrella policy before donning a helmet and riding one of those things.

I doubt people consider the company that markets and profits from these things free of liability, especially if they appear to be inherently unsafe.

The whole issue stinks.
You reiterated your complaint; I asked why you have that complaint. What is the basis for your belief that the scooter company should have any liability for damages riders cause?

If they are inherently unsafe, that's an issue between rider and company. But the article you cited, and your complaint, is about scooter companies refusing to accept responsibility for damages the riders cause even though they are caused by behavior rather than inherent qualities of the device.

In my opinion, it doesn't seem like you've read the article you cited closely. It doesn't seem intended to alert the public about scooter companies refusing liability for accidents. Rather, the article is warning riders that their normal coverages don't apply to the activities they are doing. The article points out that:
a. scooter companies have limited insurance covering faulty scooters (industry standard)
b. scooter companies require riders to sign waivers indemnifying the companies from damages the customers incur (industry standard)
c. the article warns potential customers that their normal liability insurance for vehicles would not automatically cover any damages they cause (industry standard)
d. the article warns potential customers that their normal home owners/renters insurance would not automatically cover any damages they cause (industry standard)

Yes, you should get an umbrella policy if that policy is going to cover your activity on a scooter. That's the point of the article, but I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion that any of this "stinks." More to the point, what are you expecting to be different? The only alternative I can think of would be to require scooter manufacturers be held liable for behavior their customers do. No other industry is held to that standard that I'm aware of, but that seems to be the proposal you're implying.

Last edited by bizzle; July 1st, 2019 at 09:03.
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Old July 1st, 2019, 16:26   #4854
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I doubt that the liability clause is left out of the contract. It's probably buried in there somewhere. Most, if not all, of the renters probably never read through the full rental agreement. I see it as no different than renting a car. Do you know what's covered and by whom if you get in an accident?
Uh, yes I do know my liability when renting a car, and yes I do read the contracts. What do the last two posts have to do with my issue of renter liability exposure? Bizzle just disagrees with what I wrote only to reiterate what I wrote. Sheesh.

Its probably not a good idea to use one of these scooters until proper coverage is obtained. I never said the scooter company should provide it, just that it doesn't.

TM
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Old July 1st, 2019, 16:34   #4855
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Uh, yes I do know my liability when renting a car, and yes I do read the contracts. What do the last two posts have to do with my issue of renter liability exposure? Bizzle just disagrees with what I wrote only to reiterate what I wrote. Sheesh.
TM
Yes, I reiterated what you wrote and then disagreed with it. I then asked you to explain why you think it's a problem as is common in a debate.

There really are only three options as far as I can tell:
1. ignore what you wrote (pointlessly talking past one another)
2. restate what you wrote and disagree with it
3. restate what you didn't write and disagree with that (straw-man)

I suppose an argument could be made of 4. restate what you wrote and then agree with it; but that's not where we're at in this discussion--I disagree with what I think you're trying to argue.

I reiterated what you wrote and asked you to explain why you think it's a problem. So far, you haven't bothered to do so.

I'm going to reiterate your statement and disagree with it again:
If you acknowledge that car rental companies don't have any individual liability for damages you, as a driver of a car being rented cause, then why do you think it should be any different for a scooter company renting out scooters?

This is, by my count, the third time I've asked you to explain yourself.
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Old July 1st, 2019, 16:52   #4856
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Yes, I reiterated what you wrote and then disagreed with it. I then asked you to explain why you think it's a problem as is common in a debate.

There really are only three options as far as I can tell:
1. ignore what you wrote (pointlessly talking past one another)
2. restate what you wrote and disagree with it
3. restate what you didn't write and disagree with that (straw-man)

I suppose an argument could be made of 4. restate what you wrote and then agree with it; but that's not where we're at in this discussion--I disagree with what I think you're trying to argue.

I reiterated what you wrote and asked you to explain why you think it's a problem. So far, you haven't bothered to do so.

I'm going to reiterate your statement and disagree with it again:
If you acknowledge that car rental companies don't have any individual liability for damages you, as a driver of a car being rented cause, then why do you think it should be any different for a scooter company renting out scooters?

This is, by my count, the third time I've asked you to explain yourself.
Not to be a prude here, but the above is a waste of bandwidth. If you are going to argue with someone here, do it with PM's.
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Old July 1st, 2019, 17:35   #4857
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Yes, I reiterated what you wrote and then disagreed with it. I then asked you to explain why you think it's a problem as is common in a debate.

There really are only three options as far as I can tell:
1. ignore what you wrote (pointlessly talking past one another)
2. restate what you wrote and disagree with it
3. restate what you didn't write and disagree with that (straw-man)

I suppose an argument could be made of 4. restate what you wrote and then agree with it; but that's not where we're at in this discussion--I disagree with what I think you're trying to argue.

I reiterated what you wrote and asked you to explain why you think it's a problem. So far, you haven't bothered to do so.

I'm going to reiterate your statement and disagree with it again:
If you acknowledge that car rental companies don't have any individual liability for damages you, as a driver of a car being rented cause, then why do you think it should be any different for a scooter company renting out scooters?

This is, by my count, the third time I've asked you to explain yourself.
There is no rental car that I can rent without personal liability covered under my insurance, under a supplemental insurance I can purchase, and under my America Express gold card. What is your point? According to the article, scooters are not covered and have no available extra coverage outside of an umbrella policy.

TM
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Old July 1st, 2019, 20:23   #4858
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin Man View Post
There is no rental car that I can rent without personal liability covered under my insurance, under a supplemental insurance I can purchase, and under my America Express gold card. What is your point? According to the article, scooters are not covered and have no available extra coverage outside of an umbrella policy.

TM
The point is that in both cases the operator of the vehicle, not the manufacture, is personally responsible for damages caused by the use of the vehicle.


The derogatory terms you used to describe the contracts between manufacturers and riders led me to believe you were being critical of them. I was responding that those contracts are industry standard. If you were simply posting that people need to obtain insurance to be fully covered as a PSA to the board, my responses don't make much sense.

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Old July 2nd, 2019, 02:42   #4859
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The point is that in both cases the operator of the vehicle, not the manufacture, is personally responsible for damages caused by the use of the vehicle.


The derogatory terms you used to describe the contracts between manufacturers and riders led me to believe you were being critical of them. I was responding that those contracts are industry standard. If you were simply posting that people need to obtain insurance to be fully covered as a PSA to the board, my responses don't make much sense.
Pardon those of us who feel negatively toward businesses that put unaware patrons at personal risk of bankruptcy and other harms.
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Old July 2nd, 2019, 06:34   #4860
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The only reason that those patrons may be at personal risk of bankruptcy or other harms, is if they do not have any form of liability insurance. Any damage I may cause on my bicycle is covered under the liability portion of my car insurance.

It's a circular argument that can end at any time.

Actually, I can walk into to any rental car company within the next 30 minutes and never have to offer proof of insurance to drive off with one of their cars. It will take me about 30 minutes to get to the nearest rental lot.
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